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Universal vs. Market-Based Health Care

Given the meaning of the word "universal," how about those who want universal health care sign up and vote for it. Kulindahr prefers an approach that lies at the intersection of anarchy and libertarianism, and all I can say to that is that democracy has a legitimate place in the world, and not every majority decision is an act of oppression. I just don't buy it. I'm getting out my tiny violin.

Oh! There's a smiley for that! :-({|=

1. You might try reading the threads you're posting in -- this one shows wondrous ignorance.

2. Democracy does have a legitimate place in the world, and it doesn't extend to requiring everyone to fork over for the irresponsible. Human rights supersede democracy, and no one has the right to require me to fork over to support the bad health habits of people without the self-discipline to take care of themselves.

I wouldn't mind too much if we refused to provide health care for any ailments related to smoking, alcohol consumption, cancer when the person knowingly consumes carcinogens, obesity unless medical cause can be proven, avoidable accidents not caused by other people, lack of exercise, risk-taking.... but so long s we're required to fund remedying the consequences of ignorance, stupidity, laziness, etc., demanding that anyone who doesn't wish to, to pay for "universal" health care is a violation of very basic human rights.

So I suggested an approach in tune with liberty: you want universal health care, you sign up to pay for it. Meanwhile, I have enough trouble paying for my own health care, so leave me alone to take responsibility for my own actions, and don't saddle me with responsibility for the actions of others.
 

We are rich statistically. Any country that can't keep people in decent housing is poor in reality.
 
1. You might try reading the threads you're posting in -- this one shows wondrous ignorance.
There are some wondrous displays of ignorance in this thread - there we agree.
2. Democracy does have a legitimate place in the world, and it doesn't extend to requiring everyone to fork over for the irresponsible. Human rights supersede democracy, and no one has the right to require me to fork over to support the bad health habits of people without the self-discipline to take care of themselves.
I contend that healthcare is a human right. A fancy car? No. Any car? No. An xbox, a fishtank, your favourite china pattern on the table, or an all-in drinks-included tour of the Caribbean? No, no, no, and no. But the ability to call upon your community for help in getting well and have that happen not by hoping, not by asking, not by begging, but as a matter of course and not chance, that is a human right and a hallmark of civilisation.
I wouldn't mind too much if we refused to provide health care for any ailments related to smoking, alcohol consumption, cancer when the person knowingly consumes carcinogens, obesity unless medical cause can be proven, avoidable accidents not caused by other people, lack of exercise, risk-taking.... but so long s we're required to fund remedying the consequences of ignorance, stupidity, laziness, etc., demanding that anyone who doesn't wish to, to pay for "universal" health care is a violation of very basic human rights.
I don't believe that people go about getting cancer to trick the community into providing free health care. There are other ways of promoting personal responsibility than by making people pay with their lives.
So I suggested an approach in tune with liberty: you want universal health care, you sign up to pay for it. Meanwhile, I have enough trouble paying for my own health care, so leave me alone to take responsibility for my own actions, and don't saddle me with responsibility for the actions of others.

Your ideas about lifting restrictions on medical school places are sensible with regard to cost, but still say nothing about universality. On the point of cost, there are so many examples of health care costs going down when they are shared broadly across the entire population, and moreover not diverted to insurance claims administration/processing, marketing, and profit margins. If you don't want to see it, fine. If you struggle to pay for your own health care then at least there is a certain kind of natural justice in that you are struggling at the hand of a system you're content to support lest anything else be an affront to your liberty. Even though countries regularly accomplish this with freedom, liberty, free speech, public scrutiny, informed, literate populations that can make choices and give their consent and broad support for public universal health care.

No tanks, no gun-toting soldiers in the streets, no hyperbole, no drama. Just showing up at a doctor and getting diagnosis and treatment. However, you haven't answered what the 17 year old is supposed to do on his 18th birthday when he doesn't find work that will get him into a physician's care. I'm prepared to do my share for that person, and I infer from your posts in this thread (unless you suspected him of having some unworthy disease like maybe a smoker with emphysema) that you would too. But if you lacked that character, withheld your taxes or worked under the table so you could do your best to ensure the 18 year old kid didn't get to see a doctor, I would be glad to see you coerced by as many government jailers as we could muster.
 
^ I'm in complete agreement here. Within any society, it is a moral and humane imperative to offer healthcare to those in need. This is not something new - virtually every form of civilization, in Africa, the Americas and Australia etc, has offered their own community healthcare from an "expert", be it a medicine man, a witch doctor, a midwife or a physician, and the community supports these people in return for their expertise and services.

Whats more, keeping your community healthy is FINANCIALLY beneficial. A healthy society is a productive society. If every person can get a checkup when they need one, destructive and potentially fatal diseases can often be treated more successfully. Catching cancer early can add years, even decades, to the productive life of cancer survivors.

Preventative treatment is also more efficient and more successful than treating developed sickness. It's cheaper to treat a chest infection with antibiotics on day 2 than it is to hospitalize the patient on day 6.

In Australia, the Medicare system is funded primarily by tax. All personal income is levied 1.5%, which funds very basic health cover for all citizens. That means standard GP consultations, subsidized prescription medicine, and referred medical treatment/specialists if required. Depending on your choice of physician, you sometimes have to pay a make-up cost for the consulatation.

Should you wish more extensive cover, and you can afford it, you purchase insurance: for dental, for private hospital access, for personal choice of specialists etc. But the basics, the necessities required by all citizens, will be covered by the Medicare system. So if you are a millionaire or a bum on the street, you are guaranteed fair and reasonable medical care and medication. My own experiences in the public system have always been excellent.

Malpractice insurance and industry regulation are not unique to the US, although I will admit the US is ridiculously litigious. But these can be controlled by Government regulation if necessary.

I am astounded that a nation so rich as the US is STILL waffling about such a basic human necessity as if it were a luxury, or as if people are somehow too lazy to meet their own responsibilities. The very nature of being sick, of being unable to care for oneself, of being incapable to support oneself, is the very reason that healthcare should be treated as a universal right, rather than a reward.
 
I am astounded that a nation so rich as the US is STILL waffling about such a basic human necessity as if it were a luxury, or as if people are somehow too lazy to meet their own responsibilities. The very nature of being sick, of being unable to care for oneself, of being incapable to support oneself, is the very reason that healthcare should be treated as a universal right, rather than a reward.
Well said Andy! For far too many years, the argument was made that government is the enemy. 'Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps' is the implied mantra. All you need do is listen to the crap spewed daily from the mouths of conservative talk radio hosts like Limbaugh, Hannity and a host of others. The wealthy are not going to budge an inch in their pursuit of more wealth for themselves.

Government supplied healthcare means they have to pay more in taxes and they will go down swinging to prevent it. While I don't deny that the entrepreneurial spirit is what made this country great, there is a floor that needs to be laid before equality of opportunity can be made possible for everyone. Access to and affordability of health care are not luxuries, they are basic necessities. :(
 
The wealthy are not going to budge an inch in their pursuit of more wealth for themselves.

Government supplied healthcare means they have to pay more in taxes and they will go down swinging to prevent it. While I don't deny that the entrepreneurial spirit is what made this country great, there is a floor that needs to be laid before equality of opportunity can be made possible for everyone. Access to and affordability of health care are not luxuries, they are basic necessities. :(

Here we go with the wealth envy crap yet again.

Basic necessities? What about food? Clothing? Shelter? Where do you draw the line?

The function of government is to govern, not care for.

If you want someone else to pay for your medical care, go rob a liquor store. It would be infinitely more honest and straight-forward to steal it yourself, than to ask the government to steal the money from someone else for you.
 
Here we go with the wealth envy crap yet again.

Basic necessities? What about food? Clothing? Shelter? Where do you draw the line?
Oh it's fun when I get to quote myself so soon after I've posted. Here's where you draw the line:
I contend that healthcare is a human right. A fancy car? No. Any car? No. An xbox, a fishtank, your favourite china pattern on the table, or an all-in drinks-included tour of the Caribbean? No, no, no, and no. But the ability to call upon your community for help in getting well and have that happen not by hoping, not by asking, not by begging, but as a matter of course and not chance, that is a human right and a hallmark of civilisation.
I dismiss your reply as scare-mongering slippery-slope nonsense.
The function of government is to govern, not care for.
That's a great example of begging the question. Thank you for an excellent example of tautology.

...The wealthy are not going to budge an inch in their pursuit of more wealth for themselves.

Government supplied healthcare means they have to pay more in taxes and they will go down swinging to prevent it.

I don't even think taxes would have to go up. There would probably be some job losses and lay-offs for bill collectors, insurance salesmen, marketing departments.

Which of these things does not belong (this is like Sesame Street): Radiologist, General Practitioner, Nurse; Collections Agent; Surgeon; Pædiatrician...

One of these things is not like the other...
 
. But the ability to call upon your community for help in getting well and have that happen not by hoping, not by asking, not by begging, but as a matter of course and not chance, that is a human right and a hallmark of civilisation.
.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the community at large helping people who need help. In point of fact, it happens more often than you might think, and the smaller and more tightly knit (or in some cases religious) the community, the more often it happens.

That, however, is a far cry from the looter mentality that believes because one feels "entitled" to something, it is ok to ask the government to loot (steal) it from someone else by force of arms in order for them to have it.
 
I disagree completely, and you've not tried to actually explain your position or refute mine.

Your position has been that insurance is a protection racket that distorts the market.

I've said that's false, because (except for autos) no one is coerced into having insurance, and since it's a free choice it is in fact a market force.

So I did explain my position, and did refute yours.
 
We are rich statistically. Any country that can't keep people in decent housing is poor in reality.

You have a point there, but it's not the one you think.

The problem isn't keeping people in decent housing, because that's not up to the government -- i.e. it isn't up to forcing people to do it for others at gunpoint. The problem is that the government is avidly working to make it difficult to have decent housing, by making it cost far more than is necessary.

What the government does with housing is parallel to requiring everyone to have a vehicle no older than ten years. The result of that would be to create an artificial shortage of automobiles, thus driving up the price, and pushing a substantial portion of the population into not being able to have one. If, OTOH, we treated housing like cars, people could get or build one that works for them, instead of having to make a leap from nothing to one in the not-so-low six figures.

Many people here suffer with the only housing they can afford, stuck in stuff built right after WWII and never improved, thanks to government regulations.


And our health care system suffers from the same problem: both the government and the insurance 'industry' demand that everyone get the latest tech in care. It used to be that fancy new stuff was tried out by the rich and vetted for the rest by them; they were the country's voluntary guinea pigs for the effectiveness of new equipment and treatments. For many people, if they had access to early-70s medical care, they'd be thrilled, but since they're only allowed to get the latest and best, they can't get any.
 
I contend that healthcare is a human right. A fancy car? No. Any car? No. An xbox, a fishtank, your favourite china pattern on the table, or an all-in drinks-included tour of the Caribbean? No, no, no, and no. But the ability to call upon your community for help in getting well and have that happen not by hoping, not by asking, not by begging, but as a matter of course and not chance, that is a human right and a hallmark of civilisation.

I think you're confusing rights with obligations. It reminds of me my niece when she was little; she would just pick up some toy or other item that someone else was using, and when there was protest, say, "You have to share". The concept of sharing was used as a justification for stealing.
Rights are what pertain to a person by nature. The first one is to be in charge of my own life, which on the flip side means not to have anyone else be in charge of my life. That flip side means that anything which puts me in charge of someone else, or someone else in charge of me, is not a right, but a violation of rights. So healthcare cannot be a right, because it puts the needy in charge of others without asking their consent.

Healthcare is like sharing: it isn't a license to steal, but a demand on the individual to do good for others. I can't say to another person, "You have to take care of my health" any more than I can walk up to someone with a nice laptop and walk off with it on the basis of "You have to share". Sharing is a moral imperative to those who have, to do for those who do not, as is healthcare -- which is, after all, a form of sharing.

It isn't the business of government to mandate moral positives, only to penalize moral negatives, i.e. harm. Government not only can but must say, "You shall not steal", but it cannot and must not say, "You must share" -- because in the moment it is mandated at the point of a gun, it is no longer a moral positive; it is no longer sharing, but extortion.

Your ideas about lifting restrictions on medical school places are sensible with regard to cost, but still say nothing about universality. On the point of cost, there are so many examples of health care costs going down when they are shared broadly across the entire population, and moreover not diverted to insurance claims administration/processing, marketing, and profit margins. If you don't want to see it, fine. If you struggle to pay for your own health care then at least there is a certain kind of natural justice in that you are struggling at the hand of a system you're content to support lest anything else be an affront to your liberty. Even though countries regularly accomplish this with freedom, liberty, free speech, public scrutiny, informed, literate populations that can make choices and give their consent and broad support for public universal health care.

My health care comes without marketing or profit margins, so I'm not sweating that. Why more people don't join, and why more don't set up, similar systems has always puzzled me. Mine comes through a church, which handles administration rather cheaply... and to which I from time to time protest that it isn't offered to all members instead of just those who have been in some capacity "church workers" somewhere along the line. To me, a church is a natural organization to be offering health care under the power of "broadly sharing" costs, but it doesn't seem to happen. Maybe there's some government regulation against it?

Show me a country that doesn't require everyone to pay for that universal health care under threat of men with guns, and I'll concede that they have a system which operates with "freedom" -- until then, you're blowing smoke. As MLK pointed out, unless all are free, none are free, so if even one is paying only due to the coercion of force, there is no freedom.

No tanks, no gun-toting soldiers in the streets, no hyperbole, no drama. Just showing up at a doctor and getting diagnosis and treatment. However, you haven't answered what the 17 year old is supposed to do on his 18th birthday when he doesn't find work that will get him into a physician's care. I'm prepared to do my share for that person, and I infer from your posts in this thread (unless you suspected him of having some unworthy disease like maybe a smoker with emphysema) that you would too. But if you lacked that character, withheld your taxes or worked under the table so you could do your best to ensure the 18 year old kid didn't get to see a doctor, I would be glad to see you coerced by as many government jailers as we could muster.

If people don't want to pay for your health care are required to do so by law, that is by definition at the point of a gun -- you don't pay, the goons come for you.
The 17-y.o. should plan ahead. And in a civilized society, outfits such as churches, lodges, brotherhoods, or whatever would already have made provision for this. I wouldn't mind mandating that everyone be required to join some organization which provides care for all its members, whether it be the Elks, Masons, Boy Scouts, or whatever... and in a civilized society, I don't understand why such organizations don't offer such coverage. In my vision of a properly civilized society, everyone would join a sort of lodge/fraternity/fellowship at age 16, until then being covered by that of his or her parents, and it would be the responsibility of the lodge/fraternity to see that the person is cared for when needed, as well as kicked in the ass when needed. These organizations could have their own doctors, etc., contract with outside organizations, and/or provide payment to whatever provider a member-patient chose.
And if any individual decided not to join such an organization, it would be with the knowledge that he or she would be utterly without claim on anyone else for health care, or any other benefits (there could be many) provided by them.
 
Well said Andy! For far too many years, the argument was made that government is the enemy. 'Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps' is the implied mantra. All you need do is listen to the crap spewed daily from the mouths of conservative talk radio hosts like Limbaugh, Hannity and a host of others. The wealthy are not going to budge an inch in their pursuit of more wealth for themselves.

Government supplied healthcare means they have to pay more in taxes and they will go down swinging to prevent it. While I don't deny that the entrepreneurial spirit is what made this country great, there is a floor that needs to be laid before equality of opportunity can be made possible for everyone. Access to and affordability of health care are not luxuries, they are basic necessities. :(

Government is the enemy -- that's why so much in the Constitution is devoted to putting government in chains (which lawyers and politicians have greased and slipped government out of over the years). It's the enemy because so very, very much of what government does is anti-choice.

But in a very real sense the wealthy are also the enemy, because they nearly inevitably come to regard others as pawns. This is the same sickness, really, which makes government the enemy, and that shared sickness is why every system of government tends toward feudalism -- in the case of the U.S., an economic feudalism due to symbiosis of the power of wealth with the power of office. So just as we ought to be constantly suspicious of government, we ought also to be constantly suspicious of the wealthy -- and doubly suspicious, nay, say squared rather than doubled, when government and wealth collude.

Many of Limbaugh's fans are far from wealthy, and they still oppose government-supplied healthcare, so the opposition isn't one that arises from wealth. What it arises from is the sense of rugged independence that originally made the U.S. great and prosperous, but which now, trapped in a system that doesn't like ruggedness or independence, tends toward destructiveness.

And indeed asking for government to not only mandate but provide health care is contrary to the spirit that gave us the U.S. of A., which delighted in having never, ever just one way of doing things, but rather in having many "laboratories" trying different ways, coming up with new ideas. The sovereign states -- the concept of sovereignty is contained with that of state -- were to be the political units within the whole which allowed innovation in law and polity, but they weren't the only ones. We have always had numerous churches, lodges, fellowships, and other organizations -- to leave business out for a moment -- which can develop and try their own approaches.

A single, unitary system will only impoverish us all by constricting innovation. If we must mandate something, mandate not that every last person has to support all the others or suffer; find something different, something that will make hundreds or thousands of "laboratories" set about the task -- something radical, like perhaps requiring that not-for-profit, tax-exempt organizations which have as part of their purpose to care for their members either provide health care plans or lose their tax-exempt status.

You could call it a "faith-based mandate", even. :rolleyes:
 
I know you won't see this as a compliment, but you sound more and more like a disciple of Ayn Rand every day - especially when you post things like that.
 
Many of Limbaugh's fans are far from wealthy, and they still oppose government-supplied healthcare, so the opposition isn't one that arises from wealth. What it arises from is the sense of rugged independence that originally made the U.S. great and prosperous, but which now, trapped in a system that doesn't like ruggedness or independence, tends toward destructiveness.
I disagree, Rush Limbaugh fans have swallowed this rich fatman's view of the world, hook-line-and-sinker. He has convinced them to vote against their best interests in the slim hope they'll all become wealthy like him someday. From conversations I've had with numerous Limbaugh followers, they are not a particularly bright group of folks.
 
Government is the enemy -- that's why so much in the Constitution is devoted to putting government in chains (which lawyers and politicians have greased and slipped government out of over the years). It's the enemy because so very, very much of what government does is anti-choice.

But in a very real sense the wealthy are also the enemy, because they nearly inevitably come to regard others as pawns.

Government (i.e. "We, the people"), and rich people in particular, are the enemy in this thread. Yet in another thread we have foresaken civil discourse and have forgotten that "at the end of it they still understood that the other guy is their fellow American, their fellow human being, their brother in this little adventure called life."


It isn't the business of government to mandate moral positives, only to penalize moral negatives, i.e. harm.

A national community such as your own, that would leave many of its weakest citizens to struggle without healthcare, is guilty of a moral negative, which the government should have every right to not just penalize but remedy. Indeed it should be an obligation on the government to act.

Show me a country that doesn't require everyone to pay for that universal health care under threat of men with guns, and I'll concede that they have a system which operates with "freedom" -- until then, you're blowing smoke. As MLK pointed out, unless all are free, none are free, so if even one is paying only due to the coercion of force, there is no freedom.

A country that has universal health care while making payment optional at the same time would be guilty of fostering the same behaviour as in your niece's bad grabby-hands example. Healthcare should be a universal benefit and a universal responsibility. Paying for it can't be optional for the reasons you've already outlined. Yet even then, it is cheaper than what you have now.

The 17-y.o. should plan ahead.
Priceless.
And in a civilized society, outfits such as churches, lodges, brotherhoods, or whatever would already have made provision for this. I wouldn't mind mandating that everyone be required to join some organization which provides care for all its members, whether it be the Elks, Masons, Boy Scouts, or whatever... and in a civilized society, I don't understand why such organizations don't offer such coverage. In my vision of a properly civilized society, everyone would join a sort of lodge/fraternity/fellowship at age 16, until then being covered by that of his or her parents, and it would be the responsibility of the lodge/fraternity to see that the person is cared for when needed, as well as kicked in the ass when needed. These organizations could have their own doctors, etc., contract with outside organizations, and/or provide payment to whatever provider a member-patient chose.
And if any individual decided not to join such an organization, it would be with the knowledge that he or she would be utterly without claim on anyone else for health care, or any other benefits (there could be many) provided by them.


I'll leave it to you to explain how you'll mandate membership in the Masons, but do it without your so-called goons, and yet still leave people without coverage when they opt out in your version of a universal system.

Wow.
 
You have a point there, but it's not the one you think.

The problem isn't keeping people in decent housing, because that's not up to the government -- i.e. it isn't up to forcing people to do it for others at gunpoint. The problem is that the government is avidly working to make it difficult to have decent housing, by making it cost far more than is necessary.

What the government does with housing is parallel to requiring everyone to have a vehicle no older than ten years. The result of that would be to create an artificial shortage of automobiles, thus driving up the price, and pushing a substantial portion of the population into not being able to have one. If, OTOH, we treated housing like cars, people could get or build one that works for them, instead of having to make a leap from nothing to one in the not-so-low six figures.

Many people here suffer with the only housing they can afford, stuck in stuff built right after WWII and never improved, thanks to government regulations.


And our health care system suffers from the same problem: both the government and the insurance 'industry' demand that everyone get the latest tech in care. It used to be that fancy new stuff was tried out by the rich and vetted for the rest by them; they were the country's voluntary guinea pigs for the effectiveness of new equipment and treatments. For many people, if they had access to early-70s medical care, they'd be thrilled, but since they're only allowed to get the latest and best, they can't get any.

Oh, Kuli, I am quite conscious of the other side here. The Government, status quo, acts like a slobbering lunatic when it comes to doing things right.
Why continue this?
Why not just do things right?
I know, I know, social programs have a poor-to-mediocre track record.
What our experience points to is something in the middle. If you rely totally on private interest, you invite wastefulness and virtual corruption just as much as when you rely on mammoth Great Society programs. The middle has to do with establishing community standards. We have a jobs-training program called the Military. And so on and on. We have a lot of resources to capitalize on. We have a new tech-grid that allows both decentralization and economies of scale. And so on and so on.

We're in the midst of a Big Recession. It can be better looked at as an opportunity to re-conceptualize the greater political economy.
 
You can say it is 'false' all you want, that doesn't refute a thing. Insurance is a protection racket and HAS distorted the market. You're argument rested on some asinine "free decision" concept and some argument of the past... none of which is relevant to what we have now, what has been done, and it fails to address my points.

If people can choose not to participate, it isn't a protection racket. A protection racket means if you don't participate, people will come mess you up.

So it isn't a protection racket; you are free not to participate, and no one will come to mess you up.

Many things "distort the market", but that doesn't make them protection rackets. But really, so long as people are free to choose, it's the market at work.

These are just basic definition,s and they destroy your position -- all you're doing is adopting new definitions that support your view, and claiming to have proven something.
 
Oh, Kuli, I am quite conscious of the other side here. The Government, status quo, acts like a slobbering lunatic when it comes to doing things right.
Why continue this?
Why not just do things right?
I know, I know, social programs have a poor-to-mediocre track record.
What our experience points to is something in the middle. If you rely totally on private interest, you invite wastefulness and virtual corruption just as much as when you rely on mammoth Great Society programs. The middle has to do with establishing community standards. We have a jobs-training program called the Military. And so on and on. We have a lot of resources to capitalize on. We have a new tech-grid that allows both decentralization and economies of scale. And so on and so on.

We're in the midst of a Big Recession. It can be better looked at as an opportunity to re-conceptualize the greater political economy.

"Doing things right" would mean keep the government out of it (any more than it already is in).

"Establishing community standards" -- sounds like undoing a generation and more's erosion of moral standards, by which I mean the concepts of self-sufficiency, personal responsibility, respect for others.... those things used to be the task of churches, but they've turned more and more to hate and self-righteousness, and the lesser items of particular sins.

Ever notice how Jesus didn't preach against particular sins, except those of attitude? like self-righteousness, lack of mercy, and such?
 
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