Va. Tech Shooting

[pr8wlwn]

The worst weapon that kill are not guns or knives, it's human beings WITH guns. My heart goes out to all the families around the world who have lost loved ones through needless acts of violence.

 

[69Strat]

The right to keep and to bear arms is Constitutionally protected.

Granted, but it doesn't mean that those arms aren't subject to regulation or that criminals and the mentally unstable should be allowed to own them.

 

[NickCole]

The right to keep and to bear arms is Constitutionally protected.

Bigotry was protected by the Constitution at one time as well.

The Constitution has been amended before and it'll likely be amended again.

When it was written, some Americans were defined as three-fifths of a person.

When the right to keep and bear arms was written into the Constitution, the arms were muskets, not semi-automatic weapons.

 

[69Strat]

Make it a professor --
He'd be a half-hero: hero for stopping the slimeball, but probably arrested for illegal possession of a firearm. But in all of those cases, the parents and friends of those victims would be thankful and grateful that it was stopped.
And the instrument which would have made that gratitude possible, which would have stopped that violence, would have been a handgun. In other words, it would have been a very good thing that someone had been there with a handgun.

What you fail to mention is that the police tactical units that responded to the shooter have extensive training in combat shooting, since that is one of the skills of their job. On the other hand, your nutty professor is not only taking the law into his own hands, but is unlikely to have that level of training with firearms, and would probably end up shooting innocent bystanders.

Moreover, having members of the faculty that are armed would create a nightmare for law enforcement trying to identify the "actual" shooter, in the event he wasn't neutralized by your nutty professor, in a more realistic scenario.

It makes infinately more sense to provide more training to those tasked with
the security on campus, and to implement the use of additional CCTVs, rather
than have the faculty take the law into their own hands, which you seem to be big on.

 

[brettea79]

You are. of course, wrong as it relates to owning fully automatic weapons. Individuals are permitted to own such weapons, as long as they have the requisite tax stamp. Try reading the Federal gun laws before you comment incorrectly and look so foolish!

The right to keep and to bear arms is Constitutionally protected. Even the goofy left have conceded this to be an individual right. Witness the Federal Court decision, striking Washington DC's gun ban as Unconstitutional. More guns do NOT mean more killings, I would recomend the book "More Guns. Less Crime". It is an intelligent study that concludes that counties that allow individuals to carry firearms, experience less crime.

And yes, gun companies like to sell guns so as to make a profit. That's the way it works in a free enterprise system!

Jackoroe, you are indeed right. Semi Valley in California is considered one of the safest citys in the nation and gun ownership laws are very loose. On the flip side, gun ownership in DC is very restricted and the murder rate per capa very high. So high in fact that the city temp restored gun ownership.

Virginia gun laws hold college campuses at a Level 3, meaning NO guns on campus. If campus security were able to carry firearms the outcome may have come out differently.

 

[JayHawk]

It makes infinately more sense to provide more training to those tasked with
the security on campus, and to implement the use of additional CCTVs, rather
than have the faculty take the law into their own hands, which you seem to be big on.

First thought: If they had locked down the campus, what do you suppose they would have used to allow people sanctuary? They might of ask for Student ID. Cho had that.

Hundreds of buildings over fifteen acres. 11000 students going to class. Might have there been some foot traffic about the campus that would conceal an unremarkable shy silent killer?

No identification available of the perp that could be broadcast to students and faculty so they could be warned.

They had a full time professonally trained police department of 38 officers. Thats 38 for 8000 campus residents and 16000 students from off school grounds. By contrast the township I grew up in has 22,000 households and 56,000 poeple that 35 officers service. SO they had adequate protection.

Out of all those variables, had the law been passed to allow concealed carry then all it would have taken would have been one adult with good aim.

 

[jackoroe]

Bigotry was protected by the Constitution at one time as well.

The Constitution has been amended before and it'll likely be amended again.

When it was written, some Americans were defined as three-fifths of a person.

When the right to keep and bear arms was written into the Constitution, the arms were muskets, not semi-automatic weapons.

And so, if you take issue with the Amendment 2, there is a mechanism to rescind it. Until such time, it is the law of the land.

 

[NickCole]

Out of all those variables, had the law been passed to allow concealed carry then all it would have taken would have been one adult with good aim.

Yeah there's a bright idea.

Shootout at the OK Corral.

What you fools picture for America is very very sad.

One or more adult with bad aim would have made the situation worse.

Ask Pat Tillman's family about what happens when good people aim a gun badly.

 

[jackoroe]

Granted, but it doesn't mean that those arms aren't subject to regulation or that criminals and the mentally unstable should be allowed to own them.

Firearms are among the most heavily regulated industries in the US. As to criminals and the mentally unstable, they were originally considered to be "civilly dead" and as such were not permitted to own firearms. Of course these same people are now routinely elected to public office.

 

[NickCole]

And so, if you take issue with the Amendment 2, there is a mechanism to rescind it. Until such time, it is the law of the land.

Yes sweetie pie, we all know that.

If we didn't before, yesterday's event sure made it clear.

You gun nuts have your legal protection. It's lovely seeing how pleased you are about it.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Well say what you want, but I right now there aren't that many people thinking straight.

Personally, for me, I'm still in shock about what happened. I can't begin to imagine what it must be like for the students who survived that ordeal, or the grief that the families, friends, and loved ones are experiencing as a result of this senseless tragedy.

I do know that here in Texas home of two of those tragedies; University of Texas in Austin in 1966, and Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen Texas in 1991, that since Texas adopted a Concealed Hand Gun law, that senseless killings with guns have dropped significantly throughout the state.

It serves as a deterrent. Most people tend to think twice about shooting at someone, when there's the fear that they're going to receive returned fire.

I'm not suggesting that the students themselves be armed, or even allowed to carry handguns into a classroom. However, if any of the professors there had a concealed handgun, I can't help but wonder if the suspected gunman would have thought twice about going on a shooting rampage.

But then again there really isn't any amount of protection from deranged individuals. A bomb strapped to their chest, a butcher knife, or some deadly infection that others wish to share.

 

[JayHawk]

SO in no way will you concede that an armed person could have stopped this situation? Next will we have a breath holding contest?

More Guns Less Crime Points out fairly clearly that more responsible citizens willing to protect themselves means less crime

 

[jackoroe]

Yeah there's a bright idea.

Shootout at the OK Corral.

What you fools picture for America is very very sad.

One or more adult with bad aim would have made the situation worse.

Ask Pat Tillman's family about what happens when good people aim a gun badly.

The alternative that you apparently embrace, is that we go to our deaths, without the means of self defense. The government cannot defend each and every person from violence. In fact, they have no such obligation to do so for any particular individual. We are responsible for our own safety. Had an individual, with a legally owned weapon been present, perhaps this tragedy could have been avoided. As it was, all the good law abiding folks were unarmed and the criminal had the guns. If you don't to own a gun, don't. But don't think that gives you or anybody else the right to keep me from doing so. I guess that makes me pro-choice!

 

[brettea79]

Yeah there's a bright idea.

Shootout at the OK Corral.

What you fools picture for America is very very sad.

One or more adult with bad aim would have made the situation worse.

Ask Pat Tillman's family about what happens when good people aim a gun badly.

Remember the shopping mall shooting this past year in Salt Lake City? An armed citizen stopped the shooter." Shoot out at the OK Corral"? Fitting as it brought down a gang of thugs.

 

[NickCole]

The alternative that you apparently embrace, is that we go to our deaths, without the means of self defense. The government cannot defend each and every person from violence. In fact, they have no such obligation to do so for any particular individual. We are responsible for our own safety. Had an individual, with a legally owned weapon been present, perhaps this tragedy could have been avoided. As it was, all the good law abiding folks were unarmed and the criminal had the guns.

You want 18, 19, 20 year old students carrying concealed weapons in dorms and classrooms.

That's your answer.

That's your vision for America.

 

[NickCole]

Remember the shopping mall shooting this past year in Salt Lake City? An armed citizen stopped the shooter." Shoot out at the OK Corral"? Fitting as it brought down a gang of thugs.

That armed citizen was a police officer.

 

[brettea79]

That armed citizen was a police officer.

An off duty police officer shopping just like everyone else. Too bad there wasn't an off duty police officer taking college courses.

 

[brettea79]

You want 18, 19, 20 year old students carrying concealed weapons in dorms and classrooms.

That's your answer.

That's your vision for America.

I don't think he means to imply all students should carry guns. But Jesus, campus security wasn't even armed.

 

[jackoroe]

You want 18, 19, 20 year old students carrying concealed weapons in dorms and classrooms.

That's your answer.

That's your vision for America.

My answer if for people to have the right to decide that for themselves. Not for you to do it for them. My vision is one of freedom, yours is one of big brother.

 

[NickCole]

An off duty police officer shopping just like everyone else.

Not just like everyone else.

He's a trained police officer.

A vigilante gun nut doesn't have the training, or dicipline, that police officers have.

And it's interesting you left that out of your initial post -- pretending it was just some average joe armed citizen rather than a trained police officer.