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"We got rid of the homeless people"...

You know what I wonder? Why so many homeless people give off such a terrible aura of being misfits and unpleasant. If they're just people like us down on their luck... why do they never act like it? It's not that hard to find a pair of scissors and cut off your scraggly hair. It really isn't that hard to find donated or cheap clothes that don't look like you've found them in a dumpster.

It's all about image. If a clean man in clean jeans and a t-shirt came up and confidently asked me if I had change so that he could do some very specific thing, like buy a bagel because he'd lost his wallet... I'd probably give it to him, and perhaps several dollars. But if a dirty, raggedy man collapsed on the sidewalk wearing 5 trench coats and smelling like mud rasps "change?" as I walk by,
I'm a lot less inclined to help him out. Those with mental illnesses can't be helped, but I'm sure the majority of people are perfectly capable of "cleaning themselves up" so to speak. So why don't they?

I'm not being antagonistic, I'm genuinely curious.

I recently watched a play, written and directed by a woman who spent several weeks with homeless people around my town. And honestly, it didn't really make me empathize, because she was honest. A few were mentally ill, most were drug addicts, but almost all were just stupid and stubborn. How can we fix that?
 
You know what I wonder? Why so many homeless people give off such a terrible aura of being misfits and unpleasant. If they're just people like us down on their luck... why do they never act like it? It's not that hard to find a pair of scissors and cut off your scraggly hair. It really isn't that hard to find donated or cheap clothes that don't look like you've found them in a dumpster.

It's all about image. If a clean man in clean jeans and a t-shirt came up and confidently asked me if I had change so that he could do some very specific thing, like buy a bagel because he'd lost his wallet... I'd probably give it to him, and perhaps several dollars. But if a dirty, raggedy man collapsed on the sidewalk wearing 5 trench coats and smelling like mud rasps "change?" as I walk by,
I'm a lot less inclined to help him out. Those with mental illnesses can't be helped, but I'm sure the majority of people are perfectly capable of "cleaning themselves up" so to speak. So why don't they?

I'm not being antagonistic, I'm genuinely curious.

I recently watched a play, written and directed by a woman who spent several weeks with homeless people around my town. And honestly, it didn't really make me empathize, because she was honest. A few were mentally ill, most were drug addicts, but almost all were just stupid and stubborn. How can we fix that?

interestin

anyway

back ta porn got polish da glass
 
Well, let's start with some facts, shall we?

Between 2006 and 2009, the number of homeless in Toronto fell by 51%, so why you think the city is being overrun says more about your own fears and perceptions than reality.

You’re quoting the 2009 Street Needs Assessment? The same assessment that made the breakthrough summery finding, “homeless people want permanent housing; more affordable housing is still needed.”?

I enjoyed this part, especially: “Once again, 9 out of 10 homeless people reported they want permanent housing.”

9 out of 10. What the hell does the 1 want, a fucking rocket ship? :p

You claim the number of homeless in Toronto fell by 51% between 2006 and 2009.

That isn’t how the study was recording those numbers. They were going by the estimated number of homeless on given dates, 3 years apart; not as gathered through proportional counting over the span of 3 years.

Furthermore, both dates were in April, long before the massive summer influx.

I live here year ‘round. I get swarmed by homeless at every red light. I get hounded on the street. I get spit on and sworn at for quietly walking by shady looking characters looming out of alleyways. I step between single women and pissed-off drunks who are harassing them for change and grabbing at their clothes.

So you can quote whatever statistics you Google off the internet,* and I’ll stick to reality.

* Base statistics are not always indicative of facts. 61% of people know that. ;)

But listen to me and hear this clearly. I actually don't give a shit whether some person was actually born in the city or not when it comes to providing support and care.

And this just about sums up our differences. I don’t want to seem like I’m ignoring the rest of your points (I carefully read your post, twice, and I do agree with some), but I feel it would be best to jump to the climax and save us both a lot of tail chasing.

I believe that authentic homeless people should be helped out of their situation if they want the help. I believe the public services should be there, and property funded, to address the issue.

I do not believe taking in every person from anywhere is a sustainable or feasible or even realistic approach.

The more you give, the more people come expecting to get. Eventually, the well runs dry. Even big wells.

The laundry-list of services you mentioned to support and reduce the number of homeless sounds great, but eventually somebody has to get paid.

It’s great that you believe everybody should have access to all the social support resources the city can throw at them. However, I think we should start with cleaning up our own backyard before we try to save the world.
 
Only those with a good heart and those who have been on the street themselves understand what it is like to be on the streets...often as result of circumstances beyond your own control.

And also those fewer people who have taken some time to sit and converse with the homeless, which can teach a lot. I've done some of that, and swerve has done so even more often. It gets pretty brutal - some issues that we "take for granted" such as where to go to the bathroom, where to charge a cell phone, bathing, or where to get mail, can be gruesome for the person on the street.

It is not a stretch AT ALL for me to imagine - quite well, I think - what being homeless is like, even though I have no known threat of it.

I have a good friend in Florida, who is actually sometimes on an obscure fetish group, who has discussed with me at great lengths what being homeless is like (which he has almost entirely been for years now), while also being black which causes even further hurdles. And, no, it is NOT his choice, and he is not lazy by any means, and he's shown me the books of copies of job applications he's sent out by paper or the emails that he's printed.
 
You’re quoting the 2009 Street Needs Assessment? The same assessment that made the breakthrough summery finding, “homeless people want permanent housing; more affordable housing is still needed.”?

I enjoyed this part, especially: “Once again, 9 out of 10 homeless people reported they want permanent housing.”

9 out of 10. What the hell does the 1 want, a fucking rocket ship? :p

You claim the number of homeless in Toronto fell by 51% between 2006 and 2009.

That isn’t how the study was recording those numbers. They were going by the estimated number of homeless on given dates, 3 years apart; not as gathered through proportional counting over the span of 3 years.


Furthermore, both dates were in April, long before the massive summer influx.

I live here year ‘round. I get swarmed by homeless at every red light. I get hounded on the street. I get spit on and sworn at for quietly walking by shady looking characters looming out of alleyways. I step between single women and pissed-off drunks who are harassing them for change and grabbing at their clothes.

So you can quote whatever statistics you Google off the internet,* and I’ll stick to reality.

* Base statistics are not always indicative of facts. 61% of people know that. ;)



And this just about sums up our differences. I don’t want to seem like I’m ignoring the rest of your points (I carefully read your post, twice, and I do agree with some), but I feel it would be best to jump to the climax and save us both a lot of tail chasing.

I believe that authentic homeless people should be helped out of their situation if they want the help. I believe the public services should be there, and property funded, to address the issue.

I do not believe taking in every person from anywhere is a sustainable or feasible or even realistic approach.

The more you give, the more people come expecting to get. Eventually, the well runs dry. Even big wells.

The laundry-list of services you mentioned to support and reduce the number of homeless sounds great, but eventually somebody has to get paid.

It’s great that you believe everybody should have access to all the social support resources the city can throw at them. However, I think we should start with cleaning up our own backyard before we try to save the world.


As I suspected, you couldn't name any of these supposedly locally funded social services that were not available to the locals.

I have no idea which part of Toronto you live in, but I can fucking well guarantee you that the city is not being swarmed with hundreds and thousands of aggressive homeless people. I know that the Toronto that I know, is just not like that at all. Period. So you're either lying for effect, or you are hyper-sensitive to the 'Stranger' around you and only see ugliness where others see need.

You obviously have neither understanding or compassion for the issues of the homeless. Until you do, it is useless discussing the situation with you. You have progressed in your argument from the problem of there not being enough services available for the 'true' citizens of Toronto, to whining that any solutions mean that someone has to get paid.

As I noted for you, it is not the City residents who fund the social services that support these people. The programs are funded through the provincial and federal ministries in recognition that it would be an onerous imposition on any one single community to deal with this problem using only local resources.

But yours is exactly the kind of thinking that led to the idea that ultimately, the best solution for the mentally ill and the indigent was 'Arbeit Macht Frei'. And we know how that went for the homos as well.

By the way, with the asshat mayor Toronto now has....expect the city to become uglier and meaner over the next few years.

And, of course, we can always count on Grimshaw:

including the Salvation Army who are always being asked to clean up the mess made by other people.

Christ is shaking His head:

For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

Matthew 26-11

How sad and ugly it must be to live so far from Grace.
 
^ In fairness, the Salvation Army people that I have dealt with in Toronto were not homophobic fundie asshats like those in the US.

In Toronto, the Salvation Army has done a tremendous amount of good. While I do not actually give them money; preferring to focus my attention on the organizations that support emergency shelter for women and children, and gay youth, I do respect the work that the army does for many others.

You may give or not give to them as you please, but I never experienced any negativity or resistance based on the fact that I'm an out homo.
 
As I suspected, you couldn't name any of these supposedly locally funded social services that were not available to the locals.

I earlier cited an example of my friend who drove an abused woman to a community funded shelter last summer, but found it filled with “homeless” people from a youth shelter. There were no beds left for actually abused woman but all the kids were having a great time partying.

People who are categorized as chronically homeless consume about half of the shelter beds in Toronto. This includes, but is not limited to, those who are not Toronto natives but who end up here from all over the country and internationally.

Many of the people who are thus unable to use these shelters are Toronto natives. This is a real problem without any quick solution, and it is only getting worse.

On a related note; food banks are facing terrible shortages every year as more homeless migrate to the city and need to draw on their limited resources. Local funding, charity work, and city sponsored donation-matches are not enough to combat the tide.

I have no idea which part of Toronto you live in, but I can fucking well guarantee you that the city is not being swarmed with hundreds and thousands of aggressive homeless people. I know that the Toronto that I know, is just not like that at all. Period. So you're either lying for effect, or you are hyper-sensitive to the 'Stranger' around you and only see ugliness where others see need.

Toronto is one of the largest cities on earth. There are 5.5 million people in the GTA, and 2.5 million people in Toronto.

I did not suggest all homeless people were aggressive. I have, however, experienced a high level of aggressive and confrontational behaviour from homeless people this past summer.

Should I pretend these incidents did not happen to help promote a façade that all homeless are just ‘friends you haven’t met’?

You obviously have neither understanding or compassion for the issues of the homeless. Until you do, it is useless discussing the situation with you. You have progressed in your argument from the problem of there not being enough services available for the 'true' citizens of Toronto, to whining that any solutions mean that someone has to get paid.

I have attempted to define the difference, as I see it, between actual homeless people who need and deserve social assistance, and summer-time “homeless” people who parasitically migrate from city to city, making full use of social service programs before moving on.

I’ve also touched on the real fact that government funded programs, such as many you earlier outlined, cost money. I’ve intentionally avoided mentioning charitable organizations, because they are already tax-exempt and largely work through volunteers.

However, even charitable organizations rake in profits. Here are a few figures I pulled from a report about the salaries of people who work for charitable organizations (current as of 2010):

* Gail McGovern, CEO of the American Red Cross, receives an annual salary of $500,000 (plus a signing bonus of $65,000 in 2008).

* Brian Gallagher is President and CEO of United Way, and currently earns $1,037,140 a year, according to a December 2010 report from the American Institute of Philanthropy.

* UNICEF's Executive Director, Anthony Lake, earns $201,351 a year, according to a 2010 communique from the organization.

*Dave Toycen, the President of World Vision Canada, earns $184,000 per year plus a "moderate vehicle allowance," according to that organization's annual report to the Canada Revenue Agency.

And the Salvation Army’s “National Commander”?

* Israel L. Gaither is paid somewhere between $79,389 and $243,248 annually for his services. (Since the Salvation Army, as a religious organization, doesn't report its expenses to the IRS, the only available figures for executive salaries are estimates, which vary greatly from source to source.)

Even charities get paid, RareBoy. Now couple this fact with the government’s tendency to double and triple-dip, and imagine what goes on behind the closed doors of City Hall.

As I noted for you, it is not the City residents who fund the social services that support these people.

Toronto’s Peter St. Shelter, the 11.5 Million Dollar 40-bed “luxury” shelter (complete with a million-dollar smoking lounge on the roof) in the heart of downtown Toronto, was funded with $4.7 million directly from the City of Toronto and our public tax dollars.

Just one quick example.

The programs are funded through the provincial and federal ministries in recognition that it would be an onerous imposition on any one single community to deal with this problem using only local resources.

Where exactly do you think provincial funding comes from?

Our tax dollars.

More programs funded through the government, local (as earlier cited) or provincial, is paid for by us.

What we find is that even when provincial funding is cut, the people keep pouring into the city.

The well is running dangerously low, RareBoy, yet you advocate, and if I may quote, “I actually don't give a shit whether some person was actually born in the city or not when it comes to providing support and care.”

Personally, I feel smaller communities should receive better funding to handle their own homeless issues instead of forcing them to urban areas. We’ve seen the effects and we are continuing to see the effects in an ever greater number, especially in this economy.

But yours is exactly the kind of thinking that led to the idea that ultimately, the best solution for the mentally ill and the indigent was 'Arbeit Macht Frei'. And we know how that went for the homos as well.

As my Grade 10 debate teacher said, “If you have to bring up WWII you’ve already lost.”
 
You know what I wonder? Why so many homeless people give off such a terrible aura of being misfits and unpleasant. If they're just people like us down on their luck... why do they never act like it? It's not that hard to find a pair of scissors and cut off your scraggly hair. It really isn't that hard to find donated or cheap clothes that don't look like you've found them in a dumpster.

So why don't they?

I'm not being antagonistic, I'm genuinely curious.
that?

If you honestly are curious, I would highly encourage you to work in a soup kitchen for 1 day a week for a month or two. You will learn lots. I have worked quite in-depth with various Missions around the country and they always appreciate a helping hand.
 
^ In fairness, the Salvation Army people that I have dealt with in Toronto were not homophobic fundie asshats like those in the US.

In Toronto, the Salvation Army has done a tremendous amount of good. While I do not actually give them money; preferring to focus my attention on the organizations that support emergency shelter for women and children, and gay youth, I do respect the work that the army does for many others.

You may give or not give to them as you please, but I never experienced any negativity or resistance based on the fact that I'm an out homo.

Neither have I.

It's been my experience that those most hostile to homeless people are those who are themselves only 1 or 2 paychecks away from homelessness, even though they could be considered "working middle class", so it's bizarre. I think it's a painful, daily reminder to them that they are barely keeping their heads above water. Even though these people may be doing "ok" making $50k or $70k per year they spend 115% of everything they make, carry $20,000 or likely more in credit card debt. They're angry homeless people are getting something they aren't.
 
^ In fairness, the Salvation Army people that I have dealt with in Toronto were not homophobic fundie asshats like those in the US.

In Toronto, the Salvation Army has done a tremendous amount of good. While I do not actually give them money; preferring to focus my attention on the organizations that support emergency shelter for women and children, and gay youth, I do respect the work that the army does for many others.

You may give or not give to them as you please, but I never experienced any negativity or resistance based on the fact that I'm an out homo.

Dude when was the last time you went to Maxwell Meighen on Sherborne. It's run by The Salvation Army

Saddest place in the city.
 
Your teacher is wrong, BearBoi. To suggest otherwise would be to completely disregard what the Nazis did. Besides, oftentimes there's a direct correlation with what's going on today, for example in Republican Party Platforms.

You're right. Perhaps I should have provided more context, but I had already written enough and I had to get ready to go out with friends for dinner.

Yes, sometimes the comparison is needed.

However, there is a time and a place. I perceived the Arbeit Macht Frei reference to be more of an insult rather than a serious suggestion, in which case it exposes weakness on the part of the debate opponent. That is what my teacher was more or less getting at. Kind of like using profanity, which I also avoid in serious debate.

I do take this issue seriously, and try to balance understanding of the economic reasons behind the crises with a realistic approach to dealing with it in a sustainable way.

BTW, I had no idea you were in Toronto; I'd thought you were in SCalifornia!

Yup, Toronto, born and raised. On the playground is where I spent most of my days. Chillin' out, maxin', relaxin' all cool, and shootin' some b-ball... wait, sorry, that's the Fresh Prince. ;)
 
This is a timely thread because I've developed this recent fascination with small/tiny/"micro-houses."

I think one way to get around this is to ease up on some of the prohibitive/ridiculous minimum size standards imposed on homes.

But that'll never happen because of corporate muscle (the real estate sector loves coercing people into buying larger houses that aren't functionally necessary).

Toronto is home to one of the smallest stand-alone houses in the world. Check it out:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70WhcHSom0[/ame]

It even has it's own website: http://www.thelittlehouse.ca/

There is even a company called Tumbleweed that specializes in making tiny houses. Maybe your dream isn't so far from coming true, after all?

http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/
 
The homeless of today even have it harder than the homeless of yesterday. People have less money to give. In addition, even organizations such as the Los Angeles Mission have started to charge the homeless to stay because they have not been able to get enough from donations in this economy to pay the bills.
 
WOW!!! This thread has turned into an EXTREMELY interesting and INFORMATIVE discussion... ..|

It really makes ME feel good to know that SO MANY of you help in the ways you can... (*8*)

On a BIZARRE, SIDE NOTED TWIST -- but along the same theme -- A friend of mine called me this morning and we talked for a couple of hours...

She told me about an elderly man in the neighborhood; who, last week, was charged with arson...

News Story: http://www.gadailynews.com/news/atlanta/71903-man-charged-with-arson-after-morning-fire.html

Apparently, King Brown, who is 83 years old -- decided that HE was going to HELP homeless people a few years ago...

So he allowed 4 homeless people to come and live with him in his home until they could get on their feet -- they NEVER MOVED OUT!!! :(

For the last year -- he has tried to get them to leave -- and they refuse...

He called the POLICE -- and they told him that since he INVITED THEM IN, that he would need to go through an EVICTION process before they would get involved...

He contacted Atlanta Legal Aid (lawyers for poor people) -- and they told him they could handle the paperwork, but he would need to pay the $200/person fees involved to get the evictions...

Well -- King DOESN'T HAVE an EXTRA $800 just lying around...

So -- in his elderly mind -- he decided he would BURN DOWN the 1/2 of his house that THEY lived in...

Granted -- a BIZARRE and NOT THOUGHT OUT plan -- but -- that is what he did...

Now -- HE is in JAIL -- and potentially HOMELESS if/when he ever gets out...

:confused::confused::confused:
 
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