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Were Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad really homophobics?

[Text: Removed] your statement is false.

Oooh, stepped on your nerves, did I? My statement is only false because it was extreeme. You do know however that it still applies to quite a lot of people.

Logically irrelevant -- that some people use a document or set of documents in order to justify their hate does not invalidate the document.

I don't ever remember saying that the "document" (I guess you mean the bible) is invalid. How am I logically irrelevant, when your answer has nothing to do with what I said? Please...
Also, people who use the Bible to justify anything that violates another human's rights commit a "sin". Don't you think? I think it's quite understandable that the Bible is under attack. It is a piece of literature that shaped our world for thousands of years and it still continues to do so. I am quite sick of seeing it's influence wherever I look. You love your pretty book so much? Okay. Don't shove it down my throat though.

Please present evidence that there are any "self-righteous fools" on this board.
Obvious facts don't need to be proven. I am one of them too from time to time, and frankly, you are too.

[Text: Removed]
 
Oooh, stepped on your nerves, did I? My statement is only false because it was extreeme. You do know however that it still applies to quite a lot of people.

Bigotry always steps on my nerves. And your statement was false because it was an unfounded generalization.

I don't ever remember saying that the "document" (I guess you mean the bible) is invalid. How am I logically irrelevant, when your answer has nothing to do with what I said? Please...

You said:
[Quoted Post: Removed]

The base thought of any system is found in the documents which define that system. You are claiming that the system of thought is invalid because people in power used that document to justify their bigotry and malice. Your claim is logically irrelevant, even internally inconsistent because your reason doesn't actually address the claim it is meant to support.

Also, people who use the Bible to justify anything that violates another human's rights commit a "sin". Don't you think?

Of course, because all humans are made in the image of God, and thus all have equal "standing". That's why persecution of homosexuals is wrong.

I think it's quite understandable that the Bible is under attack. It is a piece of literature that shaped our world for thousands of years and it still continues to do so. I am quite sick of seeing it's influence wherever I look. You love your pretty book so much? Okay. Don't shove it down my throat though.

The Bible is under attack primarily by people who have no more grasp of it than do the fundamentalists who think it "proves" the earth is only a few thousand years old, when in fact it makes no such claim. And that's sad, because the ethics of the Bible are still so far ahead of what people practice that it will probably remain relevant for the next five thousand years.

Obvious facts don't need to be proven. I am one of them too from time to time, and frankly, you are too.

What you said was not an "obvious fact". I challenged that it's a fact at all.

[Text: Removed]

LOL

If you think that was an emotional display, no wonder you didn't see any "real arguments". Logical analysis is always a real argument. Your response has plenty of emotive words -- "makes me quite sick", "Ooooh", "don't shove it down my throat", "it was a pleasure" -- whereas I treated the matter with the same analysis I would for, for example, Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet or Brontë's Jane Eyre.
 
Where is kallipolis when the thread needs him?

Transferred to an island community for a few months while the resident physician convalesces from serious injuries sustained while playing football!!

On a 24 hour visit to Piraeus to resolve tax related issues.

Kulindahr's comments are accurate, and sufficient to address the questions raised in this thread.
 
First of all I want to say I am Muslim. In religious point of view I am committing a huge crime for desiring man and woman both but its not the most heinous sin in Islam. Allah ('The God' in Arabic) said he will forgive every sin if he wishes to but he will never forgive the sin of associating partner with him (Shirk). He will also give heaven to Jews and Christians if they don't join any partner with Allah but I know in Islamic point of view Christians join Jesus Christ with Allah (God -The father for Christians). Arab Christians and Christians in some other countries do call the God Allah. Jesus is son of God in Christianity but Jesus is Prophet of God in Islam. That's the main difference between Islam and Christianity in it's principle.

Prophet Muhammad may not be worshiped by Muslims directly like Christians worship Jesus Christ but in true sense he is no less than a deity like figure for Muslims although its forbidden to join partner with Allah. There is a fear of worshiping Prophet Muhammad that's why there is a ban on depiction of him.


Now let put all these basic facts aside. Were Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad really homophobics? These two historical figures are the most influential religious figures in human history. That's why I am asking.

If you read Bible, Jesus said 'Kill both the men who sleep together.' Christianity is most harsh towards homosexuals. Islam also condemns homosexuality but in Quran there was no real punishment prescribed. Allah just said you have transgressed enough. 'O Muhammad', punish the sodomites and if they repents then leave them. But in Hadith (secondary source) Prophet Muhammad said kill the sodomites. Since there was no real punishment prescribed in Quran most Muslims don't support killing homosexuals. Hadiths are not taken as seriously as Quran. Hadiths are sayings of the prophet but these hadiths were written 200 years after the Prophet's death. So nobody really sure about which hadith is authentic and which are false and fabricated but if its authentic hadith then I am upset.

I am hugely against such inhumane punishment. It is not in our control that we are gay or bisexual. Why is God so angry with us? Why he wants to see millions of gays, lesbians, bisexuals in the world to be executed?

First of all Jesus never mentioned homosexuality although others did in the Bible and all in a negative way. You are correct that Jesus and Mohammad hated gays. They were sexist, homophobic and foolish men. Next first of all only Yahweh is angry with gays and it is because he is a tyrannical war god from polytheistic Canaan. However his ideas about homosexuals have been proven wrong. We know that homosexuality is not evil but a universal Biological phenomena found in every living species. So he is wrong to hate and execute gays. He is also wrong to punish people for shirk or not believing in him. Everyone has a right to believe in any religion or god they want without harm coming to them. Yahweh or Allah are essentially no different from any Earthly tyrant who punishes dissent with torture and honestly if he were a human he would be charged with war crimes.

The thing you should ask yourself is why would you want to worship a hateful tyrant when there are so many Gods that will accept you as you are.
 
So Christians don't follow old testament? I know Christianity condemns sodomites and Bible orders its followers to kill homosexuals. It has some explicit verses to kill homosexuals / sodomites.

There is no narration in most believed to be authentic Sunni Hadith (Bukhari and Muslim) about Prophet Muhammad ordering killing homosexuals. The hadiths prescribing killing is from other Hadith books. Muslims don't take Hadiths that much seriously but Quran does say to punish homosexuals but also say if they repent then leave them alone. Allah is merciful. So I doubt the prophet actually ordered to kill homosexuals.
Bullshit Bukhari and Muslim in fact say that homosexuals to be killed. In fact Allah in the Quran ordered the people of Lut to be killed because they had homosexuals. What is funny I must say is that in the Quran it says that the people of Lut were the first to have homosexuals when in actuality homosexuals have been around in all human civilizations and even among animals.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Homosexuality

All of the Abrahamic religions are homophobic and sexist. They are in fact the apex of religious sexism and homophobia so no conscious gay person should be a part of them.
They do and they don't, in that Christ's coming and sacrifice for the sins of man results in a major change in man's status with God. I imagine some of the more religious scholars about could explain it better than I. The Old Testament represents the old laws and teachings that were in affect before this change. Afterwards some of the laws carried through, some were changed, some were discontinued as no longer necessary. The Old Testament is now essentially background history leading up to the Christ's coming and its application to the Christian era must be viewed in the context of Christ's teachings.
So magically because of a blood sacrifice Yahweh changed his opinions on gays being killed. Here is the clincher if Yahweh is so good then why did he have a rule commanding gays to be killed anyways. Why didn't he support gays as many Pagan Gods have done. Plus there are verses saying that homosexuality is a death worthy offence including in the New Testament.
There is nowhere in the Bible that orders death for homosexuals. Indeed the Law of the Old Testament knows nothing of personal or biological conditions as being wrong in and of themselves; it knows only of actions.

And Christians do not in fact follow the Old Testament because they follow the Bible. Any who do follow the Old Testament are not, properly speaking, Christians.
So basically according to you Yahweh condemns gay sex but not being gay. So gays are to live lives of sexual and romantic deprivation in order to be pleasing to Yahweh.

Also this whole verse in Romans after Yahweh curses said Romans due to idolatry to be gay so he could punish them some more then says that homosexuality along with other sins deserve death.
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
So basically according to you Yahweh condemns gay sex but not being gay. So gays are to live lives of sexual and romantic deprivation in order to be pleasing to Yahweh.

Not according to me, but according to the text.

Also this whole verse in Romans after Yahweh curses said Romans due to idolatry to be gay so he could punish them some more then says that homosexuality along with other sins deserve death.
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And just where does that talk about homosexuality?

I'll note that first you have to find people who have deliberately rejected God, which is where Paul's progression begins. Then you have to find men who are attracted to women, and women who are attracted to men, who reject that as well in order to engage in sex with people they're not attracted to. Having found those people, you have to narrow it to a group who pushed God out of their knowledge and so engage in envy, murder, invention of evil things, who don't care about anyone.
 
Words have meaning. Anyone can read there and see that there is no condemnation of homosexuality. That some fail to do so is not the fault of the words.

So, some read the words rightly, and some read the words wrongly...
 
So, some read the words rightly, and some read the words wrongly...

Of course. Some read into them what they want to hear. I was trained rigorously to follow only what the words mean. I frequently don't like what they say, but it's irrelevant to me if they're what I want to hear. The words of a text meant to convey a meaning are just data, no different than what's collected in a science lab: you follow where they lead.
 
Of course. Some read into them what they want to hear. I was trained rigorously to follow only what the words mean. I frequently don't like what they say, but it's irrelevant to me if they're what I want to hear. The words of a text meant to convey a meaning are just data, no different than what's collected in a science lab: you follow where they lead.

And others have been trained to "follow" the meanings of texts differently.

So, you are only presenting your version of your understanding.

You are not presenting some plain, objective version of Yahweh's christian dislike of homosexuality.

(Unless you were trained by god?)
 
There is nothing wrong with desire, and there is nothing wrong to share in that desire with another man who feels the same way.

Let that be your guide and your measure.

It is that simple when the desire is pure, and loving of our fellow man....but, where would that leave all those judgemental theists, and atheists.....with no one to judge?
 
It is that simple when the desire is pure, and loving of our fellow man....but, where would that leave all those judgemental theists, and atheists.....with no one to judge?

Probably all struggling to figure out when the desire is pure or not.
 
And others have been trained to "follow" the meanings of texts differently.

So, you are only presenting your version of your understanding.

You are not presenting some plain, objective version of Yahweh's christian dislike of homosexuality.

(Unless you were trained by god?)

The only way to get a different meaning from those texts is to make it up. Actions are condemned, nothing else.


Corrected this for you.

That's what you want to believe.
 
The only way to get a different meaning from those texts is to make it up. Actions are inappropriately and unethically condemned, nothing else.

fixed that up a bit.
 
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