Were Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad really homophobics?

[Kulindahr]

I don't find that very clear. It's not apparent that actions are intended specifically as opposed to orientation, or whatever anything "else" might refer to. Qualified scholars have suggested other interpretations. Some have suggested the prohibition is significant only as identifying Hebrew culture...others that the prohibition was done away with via JC...others that the passage merely seeks to include same-sex relationships under the same principles of virtue that apply to different-sex relationships...others that the intention is not to distinguish same-sex love, but same-sex abuse.

What a shame.

Where is "orientation" mentioned? There's nothing even mentioned but actions. It doesn't talk about love, either; it gives no indication that love is relevant. No "competent scholar" will say anything else, because that's what the words mean -- your explication of "other interpretations" aren't even relevant to what the words mean, because they're obviously dragging in stuff from outside -- which no competent scholar does. In fact a competent scholar would point out that the verse itself says it's talking about an act, in the case of the second passage.

Whether or not the prohibition applied to anyone besides the Hebrews, or for that matter to anyone but priests, or whether Jesus did away with it, are not relevant to what the words mean. Before those considerations even become relevant, first the words have to be read for themselves.

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[Disturbance]

[Quoted Post: Removed]

You are not presenting arguments [Text: Removed]. You just insult my person by claiming I am laughable.
That is really not convincing.

Also, I think everyone can see that the big bonus of catholic religion is a comfortable belief of a paradise after you die instead of the scary unknown.
You didn't address my argument, you just claimed that I'm ignorant, without arguments of course.

You can talk all you want about my lack of nowledge on the subject, it will not change the fact that CC Industries is a Mind Control facility. Sorry mate. Your belief in them forces you to see my claims as uncomfortable, that makes you want to defend your point to protect your own comfort zone.

 

[Love me 2]

You are not presenting arguments [Text: Removed]. You just insult my person by claiming I am laughable.
That is really not convincing.

Also, I think everyone can see that the big bonus of catholic religion is a comfortable belief of a paradise after you die instead of the scary unknown.
You didn't address my argument, you just claimed that I'm ignorant, without arguments of course.

You can talk all you want about my lack of nowledge on the subject, it will not change the fact that CC Industries is a Mind Control facility. Sorry mate. Your belief in them forces you to see my claims as uncomfortable, that makes you want to defend your point to protect your own comfort zone.

It most certainly looks like you have not done serious research into Catholicism.

 

[Disturbance]

It most certainly looks like you have not done serious research into Catholicism.

And the Catholic church doesn't do any research at all, yet it still tries to tell what is what.

 

[Love me 2]

And the Catholic church doesn't do any research at all, yet it still tries to tell what is what.

The Catholic Church around the World has vast Archives, especially at the Vatican. Loads of Info online at www.vatican.va!

 

[Kulindahr]

The Catholic Church around the World has vast Archives, especially at the Vatican. Loads of Info online at www.vatican.va!

But Rome is so blinded by its adherence to pagan philosophy over Holy Scripture that it may as well have nothing.

 

[ludolfo]

I was aware that channel 4 television was putting on a documentary last night 'Dispatches' about homophobia in Russia. And I knew I would force myself to watch it on catchup which I have been doing. But it is VERY painful to watch, because the people I am seeing living in that hell, where gay people are being HUNTED for sport, that could me me or you. The hatred I feel when I see some Russian shit explaining why they sadistically torture and even murder gay males to 'save the purity of family life and children!! You see this evil man playing with his little boy in his house, and the kid spells 'peace' on the fridge door and the evil sadist gay hunting daddy goes 'ahhhh peace, that's good son'. He says to camera his mission is to keep the "purity" for the children of Russia. When you hear people use that word 'purity' ALWAYS beware!!

I will see if Youtube show this documentary and will forward it here if they do. But it is extremely tough viewing. I have only seen 20 odd minutes of it up to now and feel awful for gay people in that vile country where it's said HALF of the people believe that being gay is a 'mental illness' which needs correcting. Where the government exacerbates homophobia with its laws, and these evil people going about beating up and killing and hunting gays for their sadistic pleasure are seldom caught and brought to justice. I had already signed petitions against the Russian Olympics and told people about what's going on, and will not be watching a SECOND of their shitty corporate games, and have contempt for those who are saying nothing and participating in them.

But THIS IS homophobia and this is why myself and others here are so very critical of a book, the Bible that is homophobic, and is used by people to justify homophobia. In the documentary there was this big very fat and very ugly priest who was condemning gay people.
YET gay people still try and make apologies for the Bible when so many are victims of people who use it to justify their sick hatred of others.

"Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind ...shall inherit the kingdom of God."

– 1 Corinthians 6.10.

"Men are without excuse ... Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another."

– Romans 1. 20,24.

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
- Leviticus 18.22.

"In eternity there is neither male nor female."

– Galatians 3.28.

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature ... The men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly ... God gave them over to a reprobate mind."

– Romans 1.26,28

"Ignorant and clumsy physicians blame all sicknesses which they are unable to cure or which they have treated wrongly, on witchery."

– Johan Weyer (1515-1588)

Christianity's anti-sexual, puritanical doctrines have inflicted untold damage on the mental, emotional and physical lives of countless millions of people. Through the course of centuries this malevolent faith has left a trail of emotionally and mentally disturbed people, people who have punished themselves and caused distress to others, in a life filled with guilt, shame and denial.

Self-hatred leading to suicide, frigid marriages leading to violence, years of loneliness, anger and regret, are some of the milder consequences of the psychosis. Misogyny, pedophilia, homophobia, rage against abortion, opposition to birth control, obsession with virgin purity, obstruction of stem cell research, morbid self-denial, flagellation, censorship of literature and art, intolerance of alternative lifestyles – Christianity's legacy runs as a foul stain across the human landscape.

source

 

[kallipolis]

^

Do you seriously believe that gay bashers need to consult Holy Scripture for inspiration before hitting the streets to hunt down gays?

In your own country (UK) do you seriously believe that alcohol sodden chavs need inspiration from any print matter before launching violent assaults on people they take a dislike too?

Do you really believe that Putin's new laws are the result of his new found faith in God?

Were we to treat your bizarre reasoning with any respect we should assume that all gay bashers are church going Christians driven by a perceived need to cleanse the streets of sexual deviants, and that atheists would never commit acts of violence against their fellow man.

That Russian Nazi groups are responsible for these assaults on gays, foreigners, dark skinned people etc. would indicate that their source of inspiration is rather remote from Jesus' call to love God, and our neighbour as we would expect to be loved - The Golden Rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

I quote therefrom:

The "Golden Rule" has been attributed to Jesus of Nazareth, though he himself uses it to summarize the Old Testament: "Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets" (Matthew 7:12. However, when seen in the context of his other teachings, it is clear that 'others' is understood to be universal, including enemies and the rule is not one of reciprocity but of unqualified altruism and love in the imitation of the divine. See also Luke 6:31). The common English phrasing is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". A similar form appeared in a Catholic catechism around 1567 (certainly in the reprint of 1583).[50] The Golden Rule also has roots in the two old testament edicts, found in Leviticus 19:18 ("Forget about the wrong things people do to you, and do not try to get even. Love your neighbor as you love yourself."; see also Great Commandment) and Leviticus 19:34 ("But treat them just as you treat your own citizens. Love foreigners as you love yourselves, because you were foreigners one time in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."). The Old Testament Deuterocanonical books of Tobit and Sirach, accepted as part of the Scriptural canon by Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Non-Chalcedonian Churches, also express a negative form of the golden rule:

"Do to no one what you yourself dislike."
—Tobit 4:15
"Recognize that your neighbor feels as you do, and keep in mind your own dislikes."
—Sirach 31:15

At the time of Hillel, an elder contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth, the negative form of the golden rule already must have been proverbial, perhaps because of Tobit 4:15. When asked to sum up the entire Torah concisely, he answered:
"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."
—Talmud, Shabbat 31a
Two passages in the New Testament quote Jesus of Nazareth espousing the golden rule:
Matthew 7:12
Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets.
Luke 6:31
Do to others what you would want them to do to you.
A similar passage, a parallel to the Great Commandment, is Luke 10:25-28
25And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to receive eternal life?”
26What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you understand it?” 27He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ ” 28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do that, and you will live.”.

The passage in the book of Luke then continues with Jesus answering the question, "Who is my neighbor?", by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan, indicating that "your neighbor" is anyone in need.[51] This extends to all, including those who are generally considered hostile.

 

[bankside]

What I would expect is for the texts and doctrines and the lived history of these faiths to elevate themselves above some two-bit pseudo nazi chavvy thug. That they don't is evident.

 

[lambdaboy]

While I doubt that Jesus existed here is what he said about homosexuality;

"............................................................................" Read it carefully.

 

[kallipolis]

What I would expect is for the texts and doctrines and the lived history of these faiths to elevate themselves above some two-bit pseudo nazi chavvy thug. That they don't is evident.

Obviously you chose not to read my quotations from the Christian, and Hebrew scriptures....for had you so done, you would have noted that the message of love of ones neighbour opposes, the moronic behaviour of the Nazi thugs prowling the streets of Moscow.

 

[bankside]

Obviously you are an editor of scripture! When will this new very brief version be published to replace the much older version with all the spiteful homophobic passages. Will it simply be branded as a new and revised edition, or will a full retraction of the old immoral text also be published.

 

[kallipolis]

Obviously you are an editor of scripture! When will this new very brief version be published to replace the much older version with all the spiteful homophobic passages. Will it simply be branded as a new and revised edition, or will a full retraction of the old immoral text also be published.

I note that you prefer to continue ignoring my scripture quotations speaking of love, and of treating our neighbour with respect preferring to dwell on those lines that can be interpreted to address your well rehearsed prejudices on this forum...your right, of course

I much prefer to recognise the good that man does knowing, well that human kind is also capable of committing evil.

Jesus' prime directive is crystal clear...love God, by loving ones neighbour.

 

[ludolfo]

But like I say. That sadist murdering daddy in the Russian documentary DOES believe he is 'loving his neighbour AS HIMSELF', ie., the only people he supposedly loves are 'family people' who are 'pure' like he thinks he is. Gay people to him and his dehumanized group of homophobic sadist murderers are utter inhuman filth who need torturing and killing and removing from Russia so it can be 'pure'.

The BIBLE DOES contain passages that are homophobic, O.T and N.T

HOW many times have we heard Christians say 'we love the sinner but not the sin' implying that as long as the gay person doesn't accept that being gay and practicing sex with same sex partners is sin in the eyes of 'God' then they are deliberately sinful.

There is no actual evidence a Jesus of Nazareth existed. But his character is sexless. In the Bible there is no suggestion he had sex with another. But we here him 'cast out demons'. So do you Jesus believer believe that. That people can be possessed by demons?

 

[kallipolis]

^I prefer to focus on the positive message of scripture leaving, the negative interpretations to those determined to find fault.

Jesus asks his followers to love one another....without qualification.

Love is the force that binds human life together towards serving the common good a goal that atheists, and theists share.

 

[ludolfo]

^I prefer to focus on the positive message of scripture leaving, the negative interpretations to those determined to find fault.

Jesus asks his followers to love one another....without qualification.

OK, Jesus is supposed to have said "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." But the saying it originates in Leviticus 9:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord. Yet in the same Leviticus it also insists by the "Word of God" "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." KJV
Please explain this 'contradiction'?


also you never responded to my question put to you?

In the Bible we hear how Jesus 'cast out demons'. So do you believe that? That people can be possessed by demons?

 

[bankside]

I note that you prefer to continue ignoring my scripture quotations speaking of love, and of treating our neighbour with respect preferring to dwell on those lines that can be interpreted to address your well rehearsed prejudices on this forum...your right, of course

I much prefer to recognise the good that man does knowing, well that human kind is also capable of committing evil.

Jesus' prime directive is crystal clear...love God, by loving ones neighbour.

I don't deny that those sunnier passages exist. But why do you deny the hateful homophobic passages exist, edicts of the same god? I can appreciate the whole picture, noting only that it is incoherent and irreconcilable, while you seem not to want to see the whole picture at all.

 

[kallipolis]

I don't deny that those sunnier passages exist. But why do you deny the hateful homophobic passages exist, edicts of the same god? I can appreciate the whole picture, noting only that it is incoherent and irreconcilable, while you seem not to want to see the whole picture at all.

I have already clearly stated that no man is perfect...and, that each, and every human person can, and does think, and commit destructive, and self destructive (evil) actions.

Were you to focus entirely on the negative behaviour of your partner, and vice versa your loving relationship with him would rapidly disintegrate....

....many loving partnerships end this way...for a loving relationship to endure, and prosper both partners should recognise the good that one another does rather, than dwell on the negative....for to dwell on the negative is to ignore the complete person...and none, not even one person is perfect....

The danger when reading scripture literally is a regression to literalism in interpreting scripture as historical fact rather, than sources of archetypal myth, and symbols of the numinous including the Christ figure....here lies the challenge for many people to believe that somehow a humanoid figure, living in Heaven called God dictated the books of Holy Scripture.....

 

[kallipolis]

OK, Jesus is supposed to have said "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." But the saying it originates in Leviticus 9:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord. Yet in the same Leviticus it also insists by the "Word of God" "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." KJV
Please explain this 'contradiction'?


also you never responded to my question put to you?

In the Bible we hear how Jesus 'cast out demons'. So do you believe that? That people can be possessed by demons?

You're reading Holy Scripture as if it is a book(s) dictated by the divine mystery....scripture is not a book of rules...scripture is not a history book...scripture reveals the human condition at its best, and at its worst.....

Two thousand years ago people believed that mental health issues were the result of demon possession....today, medical science informs us that this is not the case.....

The bedside manner of a physician contributes to the well being of a patient for the sick person believes that their condition is being treated, leading to an amelioration in their condition...mind, over matter...auto-suggestion...the placebo effect.

 

[TX-Beau]

I don't deny that those sunnier passages exist. But why do you deny the hateful homophobic passages exist, edicts of the same god? I can appreciate the whole picture, noting only that it is incoherent and irreconcilable, while you seem not to want to see the whole picture at all.

Because they are inconvenient for him of course.