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Were Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad really homophobics?

Mariatenebre said:
It does say this. It explicitly says that because they committed idolatry (I misswrote adultery and couldn't change it) Yahweh cursed them with homosexuality. It explicitly says that Yahweh gave them over to these desires.
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Only to those who can't read plain English does it say that.

It doesn't even talk about homosexuality -- that's something introduced by bigoted translators.
 
ludolfo said:
You are just changing the subject and dodging the question. PROVE IT! You cannot prove it can you? Just admit it.
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No, I'm not.

Anyone who can say with a straight face that there's no evidence that mental illness is a medical problem is going to listen to anything he doesn't want to hear.

BTW, they've discovered that the brain cells of people with bipolar disorder actually function differently than those of the rest of the population -- not that you'll believe it even if the entire medical staff at, say, Harvard wrote and told you it was true.
 
radiance said:
Bible

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."

Quran

"As for the two who are guilty of indecency (Lewdness) from among you, men, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.”
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A punishment can be anything.
It can be a beheading and then give them mercy after their death ;)
 
This should be in HT Telly.;)
 
bankside said:
...and of course, they've been firebombed and threatened and so forth. Islamic culture had a more civilized past...and Reza Aslan and Ben Affleck can imagine it as it might be after an Islamic Enlightenment. But until then, someone has to point out the firebombings.
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And exaggerate them.

Put me down for talking about Islamic cultures, too.
 
zoltanspawn said:
And exaggerate them.

Put me down for talking about Islamic cultures, too.
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If we are criticizing exaggeration, I think the position of Aslan and Affleck is not so much optimistic but "Pay no attention to that man behind the green curtain!"
 
bankside said:
If we are criticizing exaggeration, I think the position of Aslan and Affleck is not so much optimistic but "Pay no attention to that man behind the green curtain!"
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But they condemn extremism, so I don't think they're saying 'pay no attention.'

They're merely asking for an account of Islam which doesn't generalize it all as extremism. It isn't.
 
While I am not as familiar with the Muslim perspective, from the Christian perspective the issue with homosexuality never came up with Jesus the Christ nor was any quote on it attributable to him.

The Old Testament or "First Covenant" of what Christians put forward as the bible was designed to gather a people of God, a nation. In the case of the First Covenant, following the principles and regulations contained in those books would bring one into relationship with God and is also known as Judaism. Jesus was a Jew; he was not a Christian. He followed Jewish law as contained in the First Covenant but told his disciples that he came to "fulfill" the precepts and regulations with a "New Covenant"; hence the "New Testament." The New Covenant was in response to layer upon layer of regulations being heaped upon normal persons by religious of the day (I believe it was more than 500 "things" that had to be done in order to be in covenant). Jesus' message was simple: love God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbor.

For me, after studying and readying for ordination, I am saddened by the way "Christians" try to pick and choose from both sections of the bible. If you want to pick from Leviticus and the Old Testament as desires and things that will be followed then you are not a Christian but should more properly join the Jewish faith. The Old Testament is not a literal history or biography; it was designed to lead a people into a relationship with a God which had very specific references and tenants that, if followed, assured that the person would achieve a covenantal relationship. It was largely based on rituals and sacrifices -- repeated over and over.

The New Covenant offered a covenantal relationship through the Son of God or Jesus the Christ. That covenant was simple, as I stated earlier, love. It's hard to do anything negative or ill to someone if you truly have an all encompassing and true love. Jesus did not hang with the religious of his day; he usually reserved his harshest words for them. Who did he hang out with? Prostitutes, tax collectors, divorced, sick, criminals, and fishermen. If one truly believes what is written, he was tempted in all things as we are but was found to be without sin. As my confessor/priest told me when I decided to forgo ordination: would he have been tempted by homosexuality as well? And if God creates all things in his image and homosexuality is not a learned trait but innate, where does that put an all-perfect God?

Thus a Christian is to follow the New Covenant (or Testament) writings in which Jesus says nothing about homosexuality (but does say a lot about divorce which is largely ignored). His disciples, primarily Paul, have the word "homosexual" attributed to them but there is no direct word in Greek that matches and homosexual behavior was quite the norm. Somehow I believe Jesus the Christ would have been at the Pride parade; he would have been helping shelter the gay thrown out by his parents and beaten on the street; he would have healed the person with AIDS/HIV.
 
Human Laws based around Religion are meant to control a Population at their most vulnerable.
During the time of Jesus, it was more likely he was as openly Bisexual as the rest they were trying to control.​
 
thewiz said:
While I am not as familiar with the Muslim perspective, from the Christian perspective the issue with homosexuality never came up with Jesus the Christ nor was any quote on it attributable to him.

The Old Testament or "First Covenant" of what Christians put forward as the bible was designed to gather a people of God, a nation. In the case of the First Covenant, following the principles and regulations contained in those books would bring one into relationship with God and is also known as Judaism. Jesus was a Jew; he was not a Christian. He followed Jewish law as contained in the First Covenant but told his disciples that he came to "fulfill" the precepts and regulations with a "New Covenant"; hence the "New Testament." The New Covenant was in response to layer upon layer of regulations being heaped upon normal persons by religious of the day (I believe it was more than 500 "things" that had to be done in order to be in covenant). Jesus' message was simple: love God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbor.

For me, after studying and readying for ordination, I am saddened by the way "Christians" try to pick and choose from both sections of the bible. If you want to pick from Leviticus and the Old Testament as desires and things that will be followed then you are not a Christian but should more properly join the Jewish faith. The Old Testament is not a literal history or biography; it was designed to lead a people into a relationship with a God which had very specific references and tenants that, if followed, assured that the person would achieve a covenantal relationship. It was largely based on rituals and sacrifices -- repeated over and over.

The New Covenant offered a covenantal relationship through the Son of God or Jesus the Christ. That covenant was simple, as I stated earlier, love. It's hard to do anything negative or ill to someone if you truly have an all encompassing and true love. Jesus did not hang with the religious of his day; he usually reserved his harshest words for them. Who did he hang out with? Prostitutes, tax collectors, divorced, sick, criminals, and fishermen. If one truly believes what is written, he was tempted in all things as we are but was found to be without sin. As my confessor/priest told me when I decided to forgo ordination: would he have been tempted by homosexuality as well? And if God creates all things in his image and homosexuality is not a learned trait but innate, where does that put an all-perfect God?

Thus a Christian is to follow the New Covenant (or Testament) writings in which Jesus says nothing about homosexuality (but does say a lot about divorce which is largely ignored). His disciples, primarily Paul, have the word "homosexual" attributed to them but there is no direct word in Greek that matches and homosexual behavior was quite the norm. Somehow I believe Jesus the Christ would have been at the Pride parade; he would have been helping shelter the gay thrown out by his parents and beaten on the street; he would have healed the person with AIDS/HIV.
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Wiz, I had read this a couple of weeks ago, and I searched for it again. Sincerely, thank you for this most cogent and informed treatment of a subject that is truly the basis for much of the prejudice and misunderstanding that the GLBT Community experiences. I am so grateful for you sharing this with us.
 
Thanks cocksucker4use; glad you enjoyed and that I shared!

Have a great day!

Tom
 
They're merely asking for an account of Islam which doesn't generalize it all as extremism. It isn't
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There are extremists exercising extreme power in all religions, and ideologies....then, there is the rest of the human race.

My experience over the past twenty years, here in Greece interacting with Muslim men, refugees from Middle Eastern countries such as Iran, and Afghanistan has opened my eyes to the fact that Muslim men...those I have met.... have demonstrated that they are open to gay sexual encounters...while acknowledging that their sexual needs, and paying the rent are mutually exclusive...

Whenever I watch a re-run of David Lean's "Lawrence of Arabia" I am pleased by Lean's subtle treatment of Colonel Lawrence's relationship with his two Arab teenage servants, whose paid services extended beyond preparing meals, and washing clothes...an open secret among Lawrence's guerrilla army...

...I wonder whether the Islamic obsessiveness with homosexuality is a recent development?
 
I don't know about Islam, but I would certainly categorize American religious obsession on the topic a recent development.

I would never accuse Protestants and Evangelicals as ever having been accepting, but for the most part, that is far more prominent now than it has been in the past.
 
Why oh why do Gays keep trying to be Abrahamics. Might as well be a chicken signing up to work for the Colonel.
 
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