We're Not Serious

[jizzeater]

I'm in yummylongsword's camp. I don't want to be associated with belligerence and/or violence. I certainly don't want to hurt this country at a time when it's already hurting, either. None of that even seems necessary, when we're on the verge of making big breakthroughs on these issues.

 

[anchihiro]

I'm gonna start a revolution from my bed, cos you said the brains I had went to my head.

I agree with Travisevian, the psychological abuse, bullying etc resulting in suicide for me is more paramount than gay marriage, although it is important too.

 

[altlover85]

I think illgetbi is making some great points here. It's the institutionalized homophobia in the US that makes things harder to overcome for gay youth.

If we had equality for gays under the law, I think at least GLBT youth would realize they have a future and some security ahead of them instead of just battle after battle.

 

[wooffy]

Firstly, if you're not out, then GET OUT THAT CLOSET!

That is worth repeating. In fact, let me shout it - IF YOU ARE NOT FULLY OUT IN EVERY WAY, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

If you're American, write to your Governors, Senators and the President everytime there's a death caused by anti-gay bullying or homophobic violence. Log onto media sites (local & national TV, radio, newspapers) and leave your comments. Do the same if there's a piece of legislation you disagree with. Do the same for any anti-gay news reporting. Let them know how angry you are. Get your family and friends to do the same.

Well said. NEVER let a homophobic comment or attitude stand. Never.

It is not ok for great-aunt Phillis to call your partner your "friend" just because she is "too old to know any better". It is not ok for your boss to avoid asking you about your home life, if he asks other employees. It is not ok to condone fag jokes with your silence. It is not ok to let any politician ignore the queer community and its issues. It is not ok to let a clerk ask if you have a "wife" - such questions should always be gender-neutral.

My partner and I rented an apartment together 18 years ago as common-low spouses, not as "roommates". We bought a house together, with a joint mortgage, before the law recognized us as a common-law couple. We took each other to office parties. We went to doctors appointments together, took our cats to the vet together, insisted that utilities consider us as "spouses", etc. I mark the progress of Canadian society by the reduction (to almost nil) of the times I still encounter these issues.

You don't have to be aggressive, or "in your face", or confrontational. You just politely but firmly refute the assumptions, refuse to be second-class citizens, and ever allow yourself - by speech, presence, or silence - to condone homophobia or heterosexism.

Every time you do it, it gets easier.
Every time you do it, it gets easier for the next person.
Every time you do it, your self-esteem grows.

 

[freefall]

I see you point here, Ill, but apparently you're heavily flawed here. At this point, you're no longer being a motor of change but more to a vandal. Yes, there are many violence-based and emotional-based actions which brought changes in the past but it doesn't have to be that way.

I may have no bright ideas to bring a major change, but let's start from something small. You can't just jump to the second floor of a building without using the stepped stairs. The same applies here; I need not say the things in detail because they are the same as others: live in pride, don't halt back, rely on own kins, and provide shoulders for others in trouble.

Probably this sounds cliche, but only when we're one in heart and mind, it is then we can make great changes.

 

[G-Lexington]

Why are we far more adamant about marriage than gay-bashing? Because we think (rightly or wrongly) that we won't get gay-bashed, but we think we'll probably be kept from getting married. To wit, the same reason that celebrities set up charitable organizations for diseases and conditions only once they (or somebody they love) comes down with said disease. It hits closer to home.

Gay kids have been bullied to suicide before, but only in the last two weeks have we had a cry to action here at JUB. Part of it might be due to increased media coverage, but I'm guessing the large chunk is because one of the guys who killed himself was a member of this messageboard. Had he not been, and had the media coverage perhaps been a bit less, I'm guessing we'd see one thread about it here, tops.

All this not to dis JUB, JUBbers, or the current call to arms. Just to give it some context. And to verify that this really HAS lit a permanent fire under some rumps, not simply gotten people into the "let me do something until this feeling passes, at which point I can revert to doing nothing".

OK then. What to do?

As said elsewhere in this thread, there's no bigger blow against homophobia than coming out. This country went from having homosexuality being completely underground to gay marriage being on the cusp of being legalized in about forty years. And the Stonewall riots might have been a flashpoint, but the vast majority of progress has been made by individuals. By letting people know that their friends, their neighbors, their co-workers, their schoolmates, their favorite musicians, their politicians, their everybodys are gay. This forces them to think. This moves gays away from "those other people" to "people I interact with". It forces them to examine their motives and hatred, and nearly always find it without merit. People in large cities aren't simply naturally more tolerant. They simply have more interaction with more types of people. I've seen small towns that are totally cool with homosexuality, mainly because Johnny who owns the shop is gay and out. So if you're not out, stop complaining about how slow the vehicle is moving, and get out and push.

Secondly, volunteer. There are plenty of groups out there who are devoted to making life better for gays. I personally prefer to help "individuals" than "the group", as I simply feel that's where my talents and passion lie. So I don't volunteer for gay marriage advocacy groups or whatnot, but instead volunteer for gay youth outreach programs. That's me, though. If you're more of a big picture person, by all means.

I do think that we've been headed in the right direction as of late. The setbacks I've seen aren't because we're not being loud (or violent) enough, but because not enough people are on our side. And by continuing to be gay, out and visible, I think more and more people come to our way of thinking.

Lex

 

[barnbuddy]

Two points here - 1st, they gov't structure of the US is designed to slow change, and 2nd, all politics is local. In fact, the 2 issues raised by illgebi have to be approached on different levels. DADT is a federal issue, and if you want to see that repealed, then check out the positions of the candidates running to be your representative in the House. The entire House changes every two years and is actually the most dynamic agent of change in the Federal gov't. The problem, beyond politics, is that the military. which HAS THE GUNS, has pretty much point blank told one commander in chief that it would not accept open gay members. That's why we have DADT. And we're fighting an endless battle in Afghanistan, not to mention any new front that may open up.

Marriage is a state issue, and gay marriage is sort of a ping pong ball between the courts and state initiatives. If this is your issue, try strengthen your state gay presence. These state wide contests need bodies in the field and fund raising.

The economic ideas presented are a bit primitive. I mean, your employer has openly gay staff, and your going to punish her/him/them? However, the Coors boycott is a good example of targeted economic justice. The Birmingham bus boycott is another. For example, I don't watch Fox News, Fox Network or Fox movies. I cancelled my Wall Street Journal subscription.

Like stated above, the first and most important step is to come out unilaterally. If everyone challenged stereotypes in their back yard, you force the people in your circle to make a political choice, not just assume the preacher/priest is right.

I think the bullying issue strikes a cord because these kids are our spiritual little brothers and sisters. And often their biological families are part of the problem. And right now, it's in the public consciousness so we need to make a public stand. LOUDLY

 

[barnbuddy]

Sorry, I forgot to spell out point #1. The system is designed to slow change. Remember, it took generations for african americans to reach a form of political equality in the US. This is not a game for dilettantes. This is a long haul struggle and is very complex. In fact there are many african americans who would take acceptation to the above comparison. Democracy isn't easy because even your natuaral allies often disagree with you.

 

[altlover85]

Marriage may currently be a state issue, but I think it's also important to focus on the efforts that are made to make it a federal one. Straight marriage isn't a state issue as far as I know.

 

[wooffy]

Why are we far more adamant about marriage than gay-bashing? Because we think (rightly or wrongly) that we won't get gay-bashed, but we think we'll probably be kept from getting married. To wit, the same reason that celebrities set up charitable organizations for diseases and conditions only once they (or somebody they love) comes down with said disease. It hits closer to home.

In addition - for better or for worse - sometimes the momentum just builds on one issue. When Canada faced the equal marriage fight, I found myself supporting it even though I don't care for the "institution" or marriage, and had no use for it personally being polyamorous. However at that point (a) so many resources had been committed that losing the marriage fight would have been a huge loss for the whole community, and (b) the Charter issues impacted every other area of queer rights.

Secondly, volunteer. There are plenty of groups out there who are devoted to making life better for gays.

Yes! Just thinking locally we have about 20 GLBT organizations within a few blocks - from service agencies to sports groups. Get off your add and volunteer! The world won't change on its own.

 

[quasar]

Weren't the Stonewall riots violent?

Yes, they were, but it wasn't co-ordinated. They were the catalyst that created the gay rights movement. The riots didn't change any laws, the gay rights movement was and is responsible for campaigning against and changing legislation.

And as I said in my earlier post, I believe that this 'grass roots' campaigning is where we have to start.

 

[jizzeater]

Originally Posted by jizzeater
None of that even seems necessary, when we're on the verge of making big breakthroughs on these issues.

Are we?

Certainly. Read this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/09/21/senate.defense.bill/index.html

A federal judge recently ruled that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy was unconstitutional

The legislation, which is a broad defense policy bill, would rescind "don't ask, don't tell" after the Pentagon completes a review of the repeal's impact on the military.

The review is due in December and would serve as the basis for certification by the president, defense secretary and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that the military could handle repealing the policy.

Democrats noted that Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Adm. Mike Mullen, the Joint Chiefs chairman, have said publicly that they support repealing "don't ask, don't tell."

That bill almost passed. It was Congressional games that held it up. It's only a matter of time before it does pass, IMO.

We had the victory in the CA gay marriage case recently, and that's looking very good going ahead. Don't forget that it's currently legal for gays to marry in a few states and DC.

The calm, rational, LEGAL route is working, so there's no reason to abandon it now.

 

[altlover85]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but it's certainly saved my life a few times.

I was talking about a macro level and not on the individual level. I don't think one man riots are the best way to go about things.

 

[wooffy]

Yes, they were, but it wasn't co-ordinated. They were the catalyst that created the gay rights movement. The riots didn't change any laws, the gay rights movement was and is responsible for campaigning against and changing legislation.

While the Stonewall Riots certainly kick-started the modern American gay rights movement, it is taking a very narrow view to say that they "created" the gay rights movement in the USA, much less everywhere.

It was 1967 when Trudeau first said, "There is no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation". Bill C150, decriminalizing gay sex in Canada, was passed in May 1969 - *before* the Stonewall Riots.

The "homophile movement" existed the USA from the 1950's, and saw publications such as the "Mattachine Review" talk about gay rights.

Europe had a vibrant gay culture in the 1920s and 1930s, particularly in Germany, but largely fell victim to WWII.

Karl Ulirchs in the late 1800's talked about "Urnings" as a distinct identity, and argued with authorities that sex between men should not be criminalized.

Stonewall was a significant event, but let's not belittle the history that allowed it to happen!

 

[altlover85]

The "homophile movement" existed the USA from the 1950's, and saw publications such as the "Mattachine Review" talk about gay rights.

Europe had a vibrant gay culture in the 1920s and 1930s, particularly in Germany, but largely fell victim to WWII.

Karl Ulirchs in the late 1800's talked about "Urnings" as a distinct identity, and argued with authorities that sex between men should not be criminalized.

I wouldn't consider any of those things as modern gay rights movements though.

 

[wooffy]

I wouldn't consider any of those things as modern gay rights movements though.

The statement was:

They were the catalyst that created the gay rights movement.

No mention of modern in there. And I would consider anything in the past 100 years to be relatively modern*, when it comes to discussing recent history. Events do not happen in a vacuum, and if one is not willing to consider at least a few decades before Stonewall, one will get a very naive view of history.

(*One definition of modern is, in fact, "anything since the middle ages.)

 

[altlover85]

The statement was:
No mention of modern in there. And I would consider anything in the past 100 years to be relatively modern*, when it comes to discussing recent history. Events do not happen in a vacuum, and if one is not willing to consider at least a few decades before Stonewall, one will get a very naive view of history.

(*One definition of modern is, in fact, "anything since the middle ages.)

I don't think anyone is unwilling to consider things pre-Stonewall, but many would say that the gay rights movement we know now is not the same as the ones that happened pre-Stonewall.

Since we are talking about movements in the states, Germany's activities aren't as much of a focus as the things happening in the states.

The homophile movement and Mattachine Society were focused more on assimilation were Stonewall and Act Up were more about telling society to go fuck themselves because we want our rights now.

 

[Kyanimal]

All of this really boils down to EDUCATION! We need to let all people KNOW that "We" are not "Other"! "WE" are the same as "THEY" are!

I'm about 5'5", have blue eyes, wear 7 1/2, to 8, sized shoes, my hair is now grey (of what's left), and I weigh about 160lb. I'm fairly outgoing, have a rather strong sense of Humor, and NONE of That has anything to do with what I can, or can not, Do!

And, yet, because I'm Gay, I can not get my (excellent) medical coverage extended to "My" Kev, because "LEGAL" Gay Marriage is not, yet, recognized in WI, even though my employer is "Gay Friendly". I have to go through all kinds of Legal Twists, just to provide for Him, should something "happen" to me. And, yet, my fellow employees don't have to face the same concerns simply because they can marry the bitch that let's them shag her!! And THAT is just not RIGHT!

Am I ready to RIOT? Hell No! But, I am ready to come OUT to everyone I know, and make them Aware, that even though they've known me, for Years, that just because I happen to be GAY, I'm just like Them in so many ways!!

That is the Crux! That is the "Problem"! I am not Different than You! We have SO much in Common!

Don't be "Quiet"! Speak UP! Come OUT!! Make an example of Yourself! Don't be Shy about WHO You Are!!

ONE Person, ONE at a time, can make a HUGE Difference!

All the more reason to ... no matter what ... OWN "It"! ... BE "It'! ... and, yeah! ...

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[wooffy]

I don't think anyone is unwilling to consider things pre-Stonewall, but many would say that the gay rights movement we know now is not the same as the ones that happened pre-Stonewall.

....

Well, let's just say we completely disagree with each other, and let the thread get back on topic.

 

[barnbuddy]

Of course, the landscape will change if the Republicans regain control of the house next year. And even if they don't, 1/3 of the dems are nearly as conservative, so....

and, what if the military brass, with rank and file support, just says "no." Cut off funding during a war? They wouldn't even review funding after the dem s took the house in '06, and that after promising to get out of Iraq.