We're Not Serious

[wooffy]

The reality of the movement is that some things will come into focus at certain times and other things will not.

Well, duh.

You have to make priorities and everyone isn't going to be happy all the time.

Who is "you", and why does this "you" get to make the priorities?

We want to form a bigger and more powerful group than just small groups working on their own issues.

Who is your "we", and why was this "we" appointed to speak for all of us?

Sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree. Decades of gay rights achievements here show me what can indeed be accomplished by various groups and individuals each working for their own ends, with cross-support and rallying together as needed.

I remind you what this sub-discussion was about, your earlier statement that:

Canada is different than the US, but even with that said, I think Reaper was talking about a unified leadership, not multiple leaders on multiple projects.

So, that is what I am addressing, your 'unified leadership' thing. No longer sure that is what you are talking about, or if you are sure yourself! In brief:

Unified leadership = bad, bad
Multiple leaders on multiple projects = double-plus good
Rallying together as/when needed = good, but like all compromises involves losses as well as wins

 

[altlover85]

Well, duh.

Who is "you", and why does this "you" get to make the priorities?

Who is your "we", and why was this "we" appointed to speak for all of us?

Sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree. Decades of gay rights achievements here show me what can indeed be accomplished by various groups and individuals each working for their own ends, with cross-support and rallying together as needed.

I remind you what this sub-discussion was about, your earlier statement that:

So, that is what I am addressing, your 'unified leadership' thing. No longer sure that is what you are talking about, or if you are sure yourself! In brief:

Unified leadership = bad, bad
Multiple leaders on multiple projects = double-plus good
Rallying together as/when needed = good, but like all compromises involves losses as well as wins

The you and we I am talking about would be the leaders of this gay rights movement. You can't compare Canada and the US. What worked for one won't necessarily work for the other.

I think the more numbers we have the better. And I think having an agenda and perhaps some sort of informal council would be best for any type of movement.

 

[fetaby]

One leader = one target...

 

[metta]

It amazes me how people have been so preoccupied with marriage in the past year when there are people literally dying because of homophobia. Where are their priorities? If I am going to, for lack of a better word, riot, it's not going to be for simply marriage and war but to be treated like a human being and not be ridiculed and degraded every time I go out in public.

They are all related. I have never just worked on one GLBT issue. We must put pressure for all of the issues. That does not mean we should put less pressure on the marriage issue. It has never been about one or the other. The bullying will not decrease until legally we are seen as equals, and yes, that does include marriage...that does include a teacher being able to mention that he has a husband, that does include not being afraid to say the word gay in front of a child, that does include repealing DADT, etc.

 

[altlover85]

You might think this is a great way to "show them" but all you are doing is proving that you do not need any equality to survive.

Being who you are every day, by showing up to work open and honest about being who you are is the only way to combat what is going on here.

Shutting yourself in your home and acting like a spoiled brat is not going to show anyone anything other than you being a child.

Showing the world that the LGBT community is no different than any other community is the best way to keep them on their toes. What you are doing is going back into hiding. Which is exactly where they want you to be.

I think boycotts are a good idea. Not eating and working, I'm not so sure about.

 

[wooffy]

I think the more numbers we have the better. And I think having an agenda and perhaps some sort of informal council would be best for any type of movement.

Sorry, but I think that is incredibly naive. If that's what you are working for, though, I hope you don't cause to much damage on your way there. Just keep in mind how easy it is for a majority to oppress the minority - and that lesson applies to majorities and minorities in the queer community too!

As for the US and Canada being different - well of course they are. That doesn't mean we can't learn lessons from each other, though! And since we are several decades ahead in queer rights and sexual rights, you might want to take some notes on what did work here.

And similarly, I feel Canadians need to take note of what other countries have accomplished - for example we are just barely starting to decriminalize sex work, and the re-definition of BDSM as something normal and not "obscene" is pretty shaky. The reduced focus on "community standards" is also untested in some legal areas. Several countries are well ahead of us there!

Realistically, the biggest difference in tactics between the US and Canada results from the vastly different legal systems. Canadians have the advantage of great similarity with other Westminster Parliaments, i.e. most of the Commonwealth. I believe the New Zealand model of legal sex work is being studied here, for example.

 

[altlover85]

It might be naive, but I think it's the best way of doing things. I admit I could be wrong.

 

[altlover85]

While you are right about the bullying issue, I can not remember a time... even in the last 10 years that gay marriage and DADT have been put in the spot light so much.

While I think they need to be dealt with I as a person who has is amoung the MILLIONS of jobless with no health benefits believe that health care and the economy are fare more important than gay marriage and DADT and even bullying which the government really has no control over.

I understand that, but this whole thread is talking about gay rights and not other issues. The gay rights movement still exists when the economy is good and when it is bad, and when also during a time when people don't have health care.

You can choose to participate in the movement or not based on your priorities, but then you can't (I'm not saying that you are) complain if you are discriminated against due to your sexuality.

 

[altlover85]

I understand that, but why is it that Gay people are only focusing on this... Just because your gay is all you can think about the small rights you don't have? It's time to focus on the bigger picture and then worry about being able to get married and serve openly in the military later.

You can bring up hate crime laws but lets face it that has only been talked about again probably with in the 2 weeks following the death of that gay kid, until then it wasn't a major priority.

I would argue you can care about gay rights and the economy and health care and that they aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[gsdx]

I understand that, but why is it that Gay people are only focusing on this... Just because your gay is all you can think about the small rights you don't have? It's time to focus on the bigger picture and then worry about being able to get married and serve openly in the military later.

The small issues are what we're talking about. Until Tyler's death, not many people knew this kind of stuff went on. Nobody really cared about it and it was easy to keep their backs turned to it. It's out in the open now, and it's on display for the whole world to see.

The bigger picture is equality. It is the right to serve in the military. It is the right to marry whoever you wish to marry. Gain those and you don't have to fight for the smaller issues. They come along automatically with equality.

 

[gsdx]

Second I have heard alot about how Gays are seen as second class citizens and we don't have the same rights as straigh people as you say, well that is not entirely true. We have the exact same rights minues the right to <snip>

You also have the right to be told you don't deserve to live for being gay.

You have the right to be pummelled to death for being gay.

You have the right to have your private interludes to be filmed and broadcast internationally and to be laughed at and mocked.

You have the right to be discriminated against.

You have the right not to visit your partner in the hospital, to have your belongings confiscated and sold out from under you.

You have the right to be harassed at your work or fired from it just because you're gay.

There's lots more, but you get the idea. You have more rights than you realise.

 

[gsdx]

Don't worry about it, I just sit back and enjoy the show. People are very predictable. I love it .

Ah. The truth revealed at last.

 

[altlover85]

Ah. The truth revealed at last.

You beat me to it.

I would comment more, but Mikami, gsdx, and ravenstar have it handled.

 

[barnbuddy]

Ah. The truth revealed at last.

good catch buddy

 

[slnattak]

So.

While we're all good and pissed off about anti-gay sentiments in this country, are we ready to step it up?

Okay I know where you're going with this, but you're wasting your breath, or the energy molecules it takes to type. <g> I tried what you did before and it doesn't work. Gays have too much self-hatred to listen to when their own kind steps up. You'd get them to follow you more if you're a sexy str8 man with your shirt off. (I know this is 'wrong' but that's the reality of the situation)

It seems the core focus of the rage is on bullying and harassment, and that's where many of you want to see action - new legislation with harsher punishments.

Of course it is, gays still see themselves as 'victims' , and victims can't ever be erotic to their own kind, they can only be helpless crybabies that need help from other people. And I don't mean to be an asshole but it's somebody's own fault if they let bullying get to them and kill themselves over it. It's not their fault that they were bullied, but it is their fault for letting it hurt them to kill themselves over it. I was bullied more than you could ever know, and I didn't kill myself over it. Why should I have pity over a gay man when I knew he could have made a better choice? How is that helping him? That's just further reinforcing the victim mentality. Instead of coddling and protection, he needed a gay Buffy to give him a season 7 speech. When Chloe killed herself, she was an idiot. She made the choice to die instead of fight, and Billy Lucas did the same damn thing.

But aren't we forgetting some things?

Let his dead body be a lesson to other homosexuals that killing yourself because straight boys can be sociopathic and heartless is well....bloody fucking stupid.

Even if we get bullying against gay youth to stop...most still have a future in which they can't get married to someone they love to look forward to.

You know what? You can't control how other people treat you. You can only control how you respond to it. I don't have the power to stop people from bullying me or trying to wreck my spirits. I do however, have the power to not let it get to me, to rise above it and retain a sense of self-confidence and inner pride.

I can see not wanting to live for that.

Dude STOP. You're making homosexuals sound helpless and like they can't fight. I don't care how often 'the first evil' talks to me or how many demons or sociopaths or crazed bullies try to get me to use my superpowers to hurt myself. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to give into that temptation. I'm too strong. I don't care how much I'm mercilessly bullied. I'm not cracking. I'm one faggot they will never ever EVER get to.

They also live in a country where they government legally discriminates against them (form of bullying?)...not allowing them us to serve our country in the military.

There's many things wrong with this picture like why would anybody want to be part of a group or institution that historically discriminated against them, and why would you want to be involved in the problem (more fighting and wars) and not the solution. I'm glad that we're discriminated for something that is obviously *wrong.*

I can see not wanting to live in a country like that.

Well I'm not going to move to Canada just because some people don't like me. I have way too much self-esteem for that. You just can't keep a good faggot down.

I don't think we're truly serious about changing things.

Here's what you do. If you want to change things, if anybody wants to change things, they go to a gay man's house or a 'gay youth's' house and instead of pitying them or feeling sorry for them or futhering their victim role, you teach that gay man how to fight back. Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. There's nothing wrong with feeling natural pain if somebody is bullying you but actually believing that bullshit? It's weak man. Just weak. I wouldn't teach a gay man how to be a victim, I would teach him how to be a fighter/hero. Life is not what happens to you, Life is not what you can get out of it. Life is not always being 'high' and having the best gay disney feeling. Life is how about you roll with the punches son.

And I feel it's time about goddamn time to bring this fucking country to its knees.

Heh. You're getting your own power back, this is better. But still too outwardly focused IMO. We don't need straight people's acceptance to know our own self-worth. We just need more of them to make more cute gay boys to have sex with. =)

Don't you?

Well...

Why are we being so patient?

Love is patient and kind. Let the straight people be the aggressors, the rude ones, the evil demonic force that tries to push and shove. They will be their own worst enemies. And let us self-confidently rise above that. Not demanding the world like us or respect us, or what we can get out of them, but what they need from *us.* I don't need anything straight men created.

Full equal rights - NOW.

This implies that heterosexual men are equal to homosexual men. I don't agree. I think we're better than them. They need to come up to our level. Not the other way around. Until gay men get this, we'll never be equal and we'll always feel 'at war.'

Until they're granted, let's making this country a nightmare. We have the numbers and power to do it.

This won't solve anything and will make it worse. We don't need to be hated again. I just said we need to stop so hard to be liked. This is different than going out of our way to be a nuisance. We did this for so long, I don't think it's helpful or constructive at all. There's nothing positive about intimidating people. That makes us just as bad as them.

I've previously stated that I'd like to see rioting in the streets over these two issues (Gay Marriage / DADT). But I'm OK starting off in a slightly less radical way.

Why do you want to scare innocent children? That's not the way to people's hearts. The way in people's hearts is to calmly (but strongly) hold your ground about being gay and just going about your day to day life like they are. This would also be necessary if they were outwardly trying to kill us. I don't feel in that immiment danger, so I think outbursts like that are childish and silly.

So here's a way I propose we start things off:

Okay...

Don't go to work this week. Don't spend any money.

Won't do anything else but make people think that we're the bad guys. They already think that enough. We need to work harder, and spend more money. You're reinforcing negative stereotypes, and hateful and vile ugly demonic thoughts people have about gays. You're not winning anybody over this way, bud.

Let's take a baseball bat to the United States' weak economic knees.

Yeah! Just like that straight kid who bashed in that gay's brain cause he couldn't catch that baseball, right? This isn't the answer.

What do you think? Just a starting step, of course...

Only if you do it to people in power that really deserve it. I wouldn't mind you doing this to George Bush, but chances are such an offensive attack would be misdirected.

Sure, it'll hurt us just as much as it hurts our enemies.

And do we really need more pain? I think not. I'm glad your wise enough to realize how silly you're being.

But better than suicide, right?

Not really, honestly.

 

[gsdx]

And I don't mean to be an asshole but it's somebody's own fault if they let bullying get to them and kill themselves over it. It's not their fault that they were bullied, but it is their fault for letting it hurt them to kill themselves over it.

How many more times are you going to keep repeating this? We get it already.

Try to think of something new.

And while you're at it, you could learn how to do quotes properly.

 

[barnbuddy]

sumotherguy et al,

so to summarize, just stop the whining and be a real man, is that it? Beat up the bullies (even if you're outnumbered?) or just take a beating, right?

I'm all for fighting back, but not blaming the victim.

All of us, even the bullies, are in this Alpha dog world, where we are told that fear works. Fear is a weapon we can use to get ahead. Fear gives the bully laughs and an audience, and ridicule gets more fear, completing the cycle.

I hope you guys never experienced this in school.

 

[gsdx]

"You have the right to be pummelled to death for being gay."
A Black or Mid. Eastern person has the right to be pummelled to death for being a different race.

"You have the right to have your private interludes to be filmed and broadcast internationally and to be laughed at and mocked."
Anyone could have this happened to them. gay straight black or white.

(etc.)

Those other people you mentioned are not at issue here. We are discussing the rights of gay people who don't enjoy the same rights as all those other people you mentioned.

As a minority in the United States, gay people aren't even equal with other minorities.

 

[Sam Blum]

This is going to make me sound cold and callus, but it needs to be said.

The problem with the gay community, is for the most part, the lack of leadership. In the gay community, we don't have leaders, we have martyrs...

I'm not certain of the verity of this claim. There are a good number of people who have consistently spoken out loudly and clearly regarding the sovereignty of queer people over the last hundred years in a sustained effort to shed honest and revelaing light on our need to participate and contribute and gain from wider social involvement. And I wouldn't have thought of the word 'martyr' to describe any of them. There have been martyrs, but they were never leaders that I can think of. Sadly, as is exemplified here in this very thread, we are all too ready to tear down and criticize our own and take our eyes off the prize, as it were.

I agree with illgetbi, woofy and Ravenstar, and many others: Assertiveness is required mostly, but there are times in all human social exchange when aggression or passiveness are more appropriate. There is not one all-round state of engagement for our problems, and we do not have only one problem to overcome. The fact is, few of us write letters, few of us like the thrill of causing a stir, whether holding our bf's hand in a 'straight and stolid' part of town or telling a cop to think carefully before harrassing us for being gay and out. Few of us are willing to fight in defence of ourselves or our loved ones to the death, and few of us are willing to argue with the banks and insurance agencies over the nominations/appellations on our accounts. Few of us speak out loudly and defiantly in classes at school and at uni, in the board-room or in the shops and restaurants and hotels. Few of us like ourselves enough to go tho these lengths. My god! Some people don't think that marriage (which for the record has been practiced at common law for centuries now, long enough for everyone in English speaking countries certainly to understand the separation of CHurch and State in this regard) should be a priority for gay people to be able to access!!! WHAT THE FUCK PLANET ARE YOU GUYS LIVING ON? Do you understand nothing of humanity? And even strictly financially, people living in long term relationships with their partners who are not actually married are in many parts of the developed world enormously disadvantaged by the inability to marry. In sickness, they still have virtually no say over their lover's care. in death they pay taxes through the nose and then they can lose everyhting to the estranged families of their partner! It goes on and on, of course, but for fuck's sake, can't we multi-task??? Segregation and marginalisation operate on many levels with extraordinary synchronicity; if we can't match that skill we will never succeed in attaining/winning our equity.

Finally, 'cause I know I'm boring you: The notion that changes in legislation do not amount to changes in social perspectives is clearly demonstrated as incorrect by the leadership shown in Spain.

 

[Andrewm]

Alright so we have our Malcolm X now we just need our MLK. This is fun!