what a load of bullshit. disciplining your kids with a belt may increase the risk of a mental illness.

[jasoncrew03]

I do agree with you about studies and pretty much taking them with a grain of salt. But I will consider the results and I think the possibility of mental illness could be true, but not in every case of spanking. And I think it would depend on a lot of other factors such as how the parent conducts the child before and after the spanking.

I completely agree.

 

[jasoncrew03]

Some ridiculous claims on that one. More successful? How is that?

When there are claims that spanking MAY increase mental illness, I think it is probably a good idea to at least REDUCE how much parents do it. As many others have said, spanking doesn't denote effective parenting. And I agree, and will reiterate... I think it's a sign of lazy parenting.

The opinion that the claims the article I posted are ridiculous is yours. I think that spanking increasing the occurrence of mental illness is pretty ridiculous. According to your logic, I could say that more parents should spank their kids since there are claims that spanking may increase success and happiness.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

I don't know why people are trying to debunk the research as a whole.

The research has one major issue that hasn't been addressed: Do other punishments have the same sort of cost? It looked solely at one form of punishment, and it happens to be the one that is also the most controversial. In that regard I think it should be ignored.

It's important to know the difference between causation and association. You can't dismiss the research just because it didn't apply to you and/or a few others you know.

That's another problem with the research, but it was a relatively minor one. It only applied to 6% of those studied, and even then just the most abused. As you can tell by the responses garnered here, a lot of people have had a wide range of different experiences with it, ranging from the maybe once or twice all the way to frequent, and from a flip-flop spank to being thrown around. In essence, all the study shows is that someone who was abused as a kid may have a slightly better chance of being depressed when they grow up.

Duh.

It's not so much a debunking of the research as it is a, "why did they bother"...

RG

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

ans think they make a space telescope but

ha

 

[jasoncrew03]

That's a great way to twist things around. Look at my post again. I said it COULD lead to a greater possibility of one getting a mental illness. It's not a ridiculous claim. Spanking simply isn't a part of effective parenting, plain and simple.

I thought so too. You said that since it may lead to a greater possibility of mental illness, parents should decrease their use of it. I merely applied that logic to the theory that spanking may lead to a greater possibility of success and happiness. The technique really isn't as nefarious as you're making it seem. And again those are your opinions on spanking, presenting them as facts is misleading.

There's a flaw in her study... these children were not raised in a vacuum.

That is no different from the kids in the other study.

Were these children monitored in homes? Were alternative methods of discipline observed to compare and contrast against the method of physical discipline?

It's really difficult to extrapolate any kind of conclusion from that study other than SOME kind of discipline leads to more success.

Again, the same can be said of the other study. And, in fact, the OP's study has an enormous issue in that it is based on what participants "remember" and that brings it's own set of issues to the table.

And once again, I never said I support this study or that it is "right" while the other study is "wrong." I only posted it to show that the findings of these studies are not universal and that one cannot conclusively state that spanking is bad just because there's a study that says so while there is another study that states spanking is beneficial.

 

[Alistair]

Guys, there's a difference between a whipping and a beating. We knew it then, and I understand it now.

I think it's more of a difference between spanking and whipping/beating. The original article stated it wasn't a light smack on the ass they were studying. I'd associate spanking with a light smack on the ass, and whipping/beating using a heavy hand or an object.

I don't think spanking is particularly harmful but as the original article stated I do believe the harder, heavy handed or belt beatings are not appropriate for today's society. This whole article reminds me of a "Roseanne" episode where Roseanne and her sister returned to the house they grew up in, and saw the hook their father used to hang the whipping belt on. For me that brought back a lot of bad memories. My dad had done the same thing. It honestly made me a timid and insecure child. I still have problems with self acceptance and self image from those years.

 

[jasoncrew03]

Oh, that's interesting... and you seem to be presenting your opinions as facts too... so don't be inconsistent.

Not once have I done that. In each of my posts I made sure to post my opinions in their relation to me and/or specifying exceptions through the use of words like "nearly" and "mostly", if you can show me otherwise, I will apologize because it was a mistake. Don't try to attack me because you're running out of viable points of debate. The one thing I have presented as a fact (that most people are not murderers, rapists, or mentally ill) is, in fact, a fact.

 

[jasoncrew03]

Well there have been studies to show that physical punishment is not the most effective method of discipline. Studies that have made use of more scientific methods.

Okay.

But at the end of the day.. like I said, it's ignorant or lazy parenting. There are a million alternatives to violence. My family has used spanking and I chalk it up to plain ignorance. They were raised that way so they thought it was the way to raise their children.

Your opinion. Stop presenting it as fact.

And that's what people are posting in this thread. And to say "I'm totally fine".. i'm sorry, but bullshit. We all have issues, even those of us who have not been spanked. Whether we are aware of it or whether we are willing to own up to it is another thing.

Sure, everyone has issues. But I'm not psychologically damaged as a result of being spanked as that study would suggest. Any real "issues" I have aren't a result of being spanked.

My issue is, why even run the risk of creating further mental and emotional issues (which honestly are just a logical step)? Not everyone is born equal and some people are genetically more dispositioned to develop behavioral, mental and emotional disorders...

Then those same people shouldn't go to public school because the chance of bullying may offset their mental illness. They shouldn't be poor because that may leave them without the option of preventing the on-set of their illnesses. A thousand other things hold the same truth but unfortunately we can't predict who those people are and in my opinion the benefits outweigh those uncommon cons. Your opinion is not the same, so I say we agree to disagree.

 

[pat grimshaw]

Gio, you're like A Dog with a Bone!

 

[MMMonsterBoy]

Can more posters with children speak up! Very interesting to hear from them. Ultimately, we can argue on how to raise children that we don't have, but you never know until you're there.

 

[sixthson]

I'd be more interested in social workers, psychologists, or those who specialize in neuroscience.

Let me see now...a young couple, first time parents, needing advice and guidance how best to raise their babies. Who do they turn to? Social workers, psychologists and researchers? OR...their own parents, grandparents, extended families and friends who have actually raised babies of their own? The latter would be the wise choice. The former is just plain silly. There is certainly some value in books on child rearing, but nobody does it better then dear old Grandma or Mama, who will patiently, tenderly and lovingly walk you through it all. Besides they are free day and night for those panicky calls.

 

[sixthson]

Lol. I'll still look to those who have studied these things all their lives. Just as I would trust medical advances over home remedies.

My parents never spanked us. They beat us and it was out of some rage within themselves that had little or nothing to do with our behavior.

My paternal grandmother was a different story, however. She cuddled us, talked to us, mothered us. She was soft and fat with enormous bosoms and she always smelled like she had just been baking. She never hesitated to correct us when we needed it, but if we failed to heed her, there would be one sharp slap across the ass and only one. This never failed to get our attention and know that she meant business. Often it was not followed by any explanation. She expected obedience from us and she expected respect. No Grandmother was ever loved and respected by her grandchildren more than she was. In her nineties, when she still lived at home, the grandchildren took turns spending the night with her so she was not alone. Often it was more than one grandchild. Did she damage us by that spanking? No, she did us a great favor by teaching us that obedience and respect were not optional. While I might resent my parents for their "discipline", I can only thank my Grandma for loving me enough to teach me the right way.

 

[Benvolio]

The test asked who were "Pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped or hit". Each of these wconsidered physical punishment.
It is yet another liberal study, designed in advance to support a liberal bias and support a political agenda. Watch for these studies being
advanced in support of harsh laws penalizing even slight physical discipline. Liberals forget how messed up a child and later adult can be with too little discipline as a child.

 

[M4P]

Guys, there's a difference between a whipping and a beating. We knew it then, and I understand it now.

What's the difference between a whipping and a beating? Both are abuse

Spanking a child's butt with the hand is acceptable IMHO for certain children and situations

I was spanked as a child and the worst ones I got I didn't deserve - they just happened when my father blew a fuse. That wasn't fair. I may or may not wear the emotional scars

 

[BrimstoneAndTreacle]

I have had depression and have anxiety, and I believe my hypercritical and over-punitive upbringing did contribute to it. My first memories of having a panic attack were when I'd get my report card at school and have to show it to my parents. They were prone to violence, and I went into hiding inside myself (depression) and pretty much lived in a constantly keyed-up state of hypervigilance (anxiety). I still get those same feelings I'd get as a kid, dreading the next time my parents would find something to hit me for. Your parents can become a model for how you see others, and if that model is a particularly harsh one, it can kill your self-esteem. I don't think it was the sole cause, but it definitely was something that exacerbating any genetic predispositions. It's taken a lot of work to "peel back the layers" of all the cumulative tension and fear enough for me to open up and trust other people.

I don't believe the seeming rise in disrespect is caused by lack of corporal punishment. I think it has more to do with a society whose sole shared value for the last two generations has been consumerism. And consumerism manipulates its audience by promising things like youth, attractiveness/sex, popularity, power, etc. These are the factors that most commercials toy with. Those are the images that young people are bombarded with on a perpetually increasing level and, as a result, it's what we as a society have come to fixate on. Old-timey values, such as integrity, compassion, forbearance, etc. have fallen by the wayside. Who cares about any of that stuff if it doesn't get you laid, rich, or famous? It's rare to see those old values paid anything more than lip service these days. Of course, parents can mitigate that influence by simply spending more time with their kids and stressing those ideals. I don't think that instilling those ideals in your kids need necessarily involve physical punishment (at least I hope not).

Another aspect of it, I think, is the loss of the extended family. In the nuclear family model, children aren't as connected to their grandparents or older family members. I've known kids who've never even met their grandparents, or meet them only once every few years. In other societies and cultures, it's much more common to have sustained contact with the extended family. It helps build a sense of community, love, and respect.

 

[levenshulme31]

In adult relationships it is now, rightly in my opinion, considered completely unacceptable for one patner to hit, punch, slap or beat the other as a means of punishment, control or discipline. It would be unthinkable for your boss to lay into you with his belt if you said the wrong thing to a customer. How many times on here have we seen videos of cops or rent-a-cops tazing or pepperspraying people for the mildest of offence (or no offence at all) and they have been roundly condemned for doing so.

I cannot see how it can be somehow different when it comes to disciplining children. I can easily see how frustrating and annoying children may be and for parents it can be an incredibly difficult and thankless task raising children, but resorting to violent assault (which is what we are talking about, from a mild slap to a full-on belt-whipping) cannot be justified, at least not using reason and logic.

It is not the lack of beatings which has caused so many young people to be, frankly, awful little shitbags. I suspect a lack of attentive parenting, being plonked in front of hour after hour of mindless tv and fed on a diet of sugary, fatty, salty dross are probably far more salient factors in behavioural problems.

For all those defending physical discipline, I have to say I don't recall any episode of Supernanny where she tames a seemingly Satanic brood by beating the shit out of them.

There is no such thing as a loving assault.

 

[Benvolio]

In adult relationships it is now, rightly in my opinion, considered completely unacceptable for one patner to hit, punch, slap or beat the other as a means of punishment, control or discipline. It would be unthinkable for your boss to lay into you with his belt if you said the wrong thing to a customer. How many times on here have we seen videos of cops or rent-a-cops tazing or pepperspraying people for the mildest of offence (or no offence at all) and they have been roundly condemned for doing so.

I cannot see how it can be somehow different when it comes to disciplining children. I can easily see how frustrating and annoying




children may be and for parents it can be an incredibly difficult and thankless task raising children, but resorting to violent assault (which is what we are talking about, from a mild slap to a full-on belt-whipping) cannot be justified, at least not using reason and logic.




It is not the lack of beatings which has caused so many young people to be, frankly, awful little shitbags. I suspect a lack of attentive parenting, being plonked in front of hour after hour of mindless tv and fed on a diet of sugary, fatty, salty dross are probably far more salient factors in behavioural problems.





For all those defending physical discipline, I have to say I don't recall any episode of Supernanny where she tames a seemingly Satanic brood by beating the shit out of them.

There is no such thing as a loving assault.

No one has advocated beating the shit out of them. But children do need some discipline and where is the study about the effect of other forms of discipline? Who says sending them to their room, or without supper, does not traumatise them equally with a swat to the behind?

 

[hungkee]

Pardon my editing your full post, but these have meaning for me.

As someone that was severely whipped for discipline as a child, I completely agree. My father used a split leather belt to discipline us. I not only think it causes a mistrust of authority figures, but more importantly I also think it causes a lifelong mistrust of loved ones. I've never been diagnosed with any mental illness, or depression. I can certainly say that I have always had anxiety about relationships. I have always had a fear that my loved one is going to hurt me. I truly believe that is from the fear of my father's abuse.

I did grow up to be a productive person, but I can guarantee you that was not from the discipline. That is all due to the core beliefs that I have developed as an adult. The only thing the discipline provided was life long insecurity, hurt and anger.

So sorry to read all that.

And it is why I wanted to mention that some use the words "mentally ill" so freely. Or it conjures up such radical or severe examples.

Sadly, perhaps the majority of mental illness is depression, issues of anxiety and a sense of overwhelming stress.

And not being able to trust those closest to us during our developmental years can play a huge role in causing or bring out those mental and emotional responses.

And you're right. It doesn't always make someone unable to be productive. LOTS of high-achieving people with tons of talents and activities can be depressed and/or full of life-long anxiety.

Its rather like the functional illiterate or those who can be functional alcohols. People become great at compensating and even hiding their vulnerability and illness.

And in many cases, its only certain people, events or situations which rekindle or bring out the anxieties (in particular).

You can relate to a high-achieving, successful friend, spouse or boss all of the time and then be surprised how incapable they become when put into certain situations with certain people.

Hitting or otherwise abusing one's kids isn't going to do much but to cause them to associate love with something to be cautious or wary of in the end. If a beating with a belt is "love" and one's parent shows "love" that way, one can come to never even understand what unconditional, caring love is.

Because we're talking about CHILDREN suffering at the hands of ADULTS no matter what they all might want to call the relationship.

On a side note, I always find it humorous (and telling) that many parents will say (and even adult victims as they try to justify their parent's previous behaviors) that its all just been a "whoopin'" or a "spanking".

I don't think that's what we're quite talking here which leads to mental illness.

A quick tap on the beee-hind isn't necessarily what these parents are truly doing.

There are arguments that a physical contact "discipline" can sometimes send a clear message FAST. But usually when a child is about to jump off the side of the boat, stick chopsticks into his little sister's eyes or shove their head into the wood chipper.

For the most part, though, that isn't why or when or how MOST parents are hitting their kids.

If parents are HONEST, there is a lot of displaced anger in those spankings and beatings. Hitting children with BELTS? Really? And did any parent ever watch "ROOTS" - ever?

Or parents will be complaining about waterboarding terrorists - but then be their own child's worst terrorist as they stalk them about the house after dinner with big fists or leather trusses?

Who needs "parents" like that when you got Dick Cheneys in this world?

 

[pat grimshaw]

^ what is ROOTS?

 

[hungkee]

^ what is ROOTS?