On Topic Discussion What do you think about bisexuals?

[Kahaih]

If you are saying you are bi, you are telling the world you are sexually interested in men - the same as I am when I tell people I am gay. I really don't think a bi person gets any more benefit than me, when they tell people they are bisexual - sure if they are going about with their girlfriends, people might just assume they are straight, but the moment they come out as bi to someone new they are admitting a interest sexually in men.

. . . .

I remember reading some saying or joke that when something like this:

A man can build hundreds of magnificent bridges and be known as a bridge builder until the day he sucks one cock and becomes forever after known as 'that cock sucker'.

I'm sure that's too wordy and not quite the way it went, but you get the picture.

 

[pat grimshaw]

...A man can build hundreds magnificent bridges and be known as a bridge builder until the day he sucks one cock and becomes forever after known as 'that cock sucker'. ..

Yes it's the One Drop Rule

 

[luckynumbah7]

Homophobes, no. But there are a lot of men and women who are okay with bi men and not okay at all with gay men.
And how many bi men tell people they interact with every day that they like men sexually. They can much more easily pass for straight.

To the first sentence; where? I've seen a handful of bi people say that both gay and straight people would be bi if they weren't repressing feelings, but that strikes me as a bit of bullshit and it has nothing to do with homophobia when in reference to gay people.
Second sentence people can (and have) said the same thing for every gay person who can pass as straight because they don't tell people they interact with every day that they're gay. Some people don't feel the need and consider sexuality a private matter unless it comes up. Which isn't the same as being in the closet.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Have we been reading the same 10-page thread?

Yes, unfortunately. That's why I said repetition. Out of ten pages, if condensed, three could be considered discussion. Most of it seems to be poking and Grimshawisms. Well, maybe four, but I suspect that's pushing it.

Mind you, that's condensed, because several people typed the same things in different manners.

*and for the record, I'm including Sokker in with the Grimshawisms, yes indeed.

 

[pat grimshaw]

This guy has announced to his publicists that he's "openly bisexual"

 

[bankside]

I didn't say shut up. But what's the point of proclaiming "HEY, you might think I'm gay but I'm actually bi"

I think most people are bi. I don't feel it's necessary to wear anyone's sexual identity like a badge, especially when it is to deny that you are gay.

Everyone is free to do it. However if you need to make a huge fuss about it, that screams to me that something else is at play.

What kind of fuss? Just correcting people? When people ask to speak to my wife, I'm pretty blunt about correcting them. I'm humorous about it but not in a way that minimizes their blunder.

Bi guys have it worse? That is hilarious. What suffering to bi guys go through that gays do not?

Well there are fewer of them, and they get misunderstood by the citizens of Gaydom as well as Straightopia. And whatever homophobia we all face as gay or bi men, the gays have to deal with head-on if they want a physical relationship with anyone. Some bi guys can get fooled into thinking they can wish it away because after all, they still dig women. That's not actually an advantage. Other than that, I think it's pretty similar.

And once you are in a committed monogamous relationship, what is the point of publicly proclaiming that bi title?

Because it's who the person is. It's who he is, not the gender of who he's dating. We allow virgin youths to come out as gay and we don't say "Why do you even label yourself that way? You haven't even been with anyone yet. You should call yourself asexual at best..."

A person's sexuality does not whither away and become fixated on just one person, even in a successful monogamous relationship. They always have potential beyond that relationship.

If you know, you know.

And while a gay guy who can't face it might lie about being bi, he also might lie about being straight. But a bi guy might be able to handle things just fine, and be telling the truth about being bi.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

What kind of fuss? Just correcting people? When people ask to speak to my wife, I'm pretty blunt about correcting them. I'm humorous about it but not in a way that minimizes their blunder.

I wasn't talking about correcting people. I'm talking about scenarios where the proclamation is unprovoked.

Well there are fewer of them, and they get misunderstood by the citizens of Gaydom as well as Straightopia. And whatever homophobia we all face as gay or bi men, the gays have to deal with head-on if they want a physical relationship with anyone. Some bi guys can get fooled into thinking they can wish it away because after all, they still dig women. That's not actually an advantage. Other than that, I think it's pretty similar.

Fewer bisexuals according to whom? I believe there are more bi people than there are 100% gay people.
Also, gay guys believe they can wish it away too.. except with bi guys, they can actually hide those gay urges and live lives as straight men if they choose to. That is a HUGE differentiation.

Because it's who the person is. It's who he is, not the gender of who he's dating. We allow virgin youths to come out as gay and we don't say "Why do you even label yourself that way? You haven't even been with anyone yet. You should call yourself asexual at best..."

A person's sexuality does not whither away and become fixated on just one person, even in a successful monogamous relationship. They always have potential beyond that relationship.

If you know, you know.

And while a gay guy who can't face it might lie about being bi, he also might lie about being straight. But a bi guy might be able to handle things just fine, and be telling the truth about being bi.

I don't believe in "lying" about sexual identity. You identify however you want and that is your personal choice. It is not something that can be tested because it is how you see yourself. I'm talking about someone who goes out of their way to make everyone know that they are not gay, but actually bi, despite being in a monogamous relationship with a male. How often is sexual orientation the topic of everyday discussion? It never comes up for me... hardly ever unless I am with gay males and even then, the topic of the sexual orientation of those present is rarely up for discussion. Therefore, for someone to make a concerted effort to let everyone know he is NOT gay but bi.. that rings of something else to me. And just as they are entitled to make those proclamations, I am entitled to have my opinion of them.

My responses are in the quote above in bold and italics.

 

[Adrusek81]

No. But I think that many bi people, and I strongly suspect the guy in the video, have long histories of near exclusive preference for one gender while reacting in pronounced annoyance that their bisexuality isn't being recognized.

The problem with the "could be 1% through 99%, however the person within that range feels like identifying" parameter is that it obscures what is probably for most only a theoretical compatibility with both genders and doesn't tell you anything about their effective attraction. Even according to many bisexuals at JUB, 50/50 bisexuals are rare.

If anyone presumes that my ID of gay necessarily implies a 0.0% attraction to women, they'd be wrong, and that's likely true of many gay men. It doesn't bother me, though, because I intend to pursue and settle down with someone who is male.

Isn't your argument contradictory in essence? You're saying that bisexual people have a strong preference that overrides the theoretical concept of "potential attraction to any member of both genders" and thus, don't have a right to be offended or angry when someone assumes that their sexual identity is anything other than bisexual, for their primary attraction or personal preferences override the rules of the general concept.

Then, you go on to say that you are attracted to women but your desire for men is far greater and thus, this validates the notion that a person's primary attraction defines their true sexuality. Well, no. You can choose to call yourself anything you want, but the truth of the matter is that you are a homo-romantic, and possibly homo-social, bisexual male. The real problem is that many people seem to be conflicted with their own bisexual desires, and interpret their lack personal interest (and/or fear of having to construct and entirely new social identity) in pursuing them as an indication of their true sexual orientation.

Should we clarify, before anything, the more salient manifestations of bisexuality in order to allow people to understand what it implies, and how a person who has a strong preference for one gender and no desire to pursue anything with the other, doesn't preclude them from being what they are in terms of sexuality? I think that this thread would have been less conflict-ridden if we had all done it before.

So, the sexual identity scale according to Kinsey, and leaving space for clarification, could be (sorry if it's too long, but bisexuality IS complicated)...

1 Heterosexual

2/3 Strongly or mostly hetero-romantic and hetero-social, with diverging levels of homo-sexuality and homo-socialization. They could range from:
1 Incidental vague same sex desire (expressed as fleeting attractions/fantasies).
2 Regular vague same sex desire (see above).
3 Incidental, intense same sex desire (experienced as liking gay/lesbian pornography or sexual acts of a diverse nature).
4 Regular, intense same sex desire (see above).
5 Absolute (the person is hetero-romantic/social, but needs same sex activity in order to be fulfilled).

2/3 Strongly or mostly hetero-romantic and hetero-social, but with diverging levels of homo-romanticism and homo-socialization not linked in any way to sexual desire. So, people who feel an emotional response of only a romantic kind towards people of their same gender, could range from:
1 Incidentally homo-romantic.
2 Regularly homo-romantic.
3 Absolute (the person is hetero-romantic/social, but needs same sex romantic relationships in order to be fulfilled).

4 Equally hetero and homo-romantic and hetero and homo-social. They could be:
1 Context-based (the person expresses their desires according to the situation they're in).
2 Relationship based (the person expresses their desires according to the partner they have).
3 Absolute (the person needs both hetero and homo-romantic/social/sexual relationships in order to be fulfilled).

5/6 Strongly or mostly homo-romantic and homo-social, but with diverging levels of hetero-romanticism and hetero-socialization not linked in any way to sexual desire. So, people who feel an emotional response of only a romantic kind towards people of their opposite gender, could range from:
1 Incidentally hetero-romantic.
2 Regularly hetero-romantic.
3 Absolute (the person is homo-romantic/social, but needs opposite sex romantic relationships in order to be fulfilled).

5/6 Strongly or mostly homo-romantic and homo-social, with diverging levels of hetero-sexuality and hetero-socialization. They could range from:
1 Incidental vague opposite sex desire (expressed as fleeting attractions/fantasies).
2 Regular vague opposite sex desire (see above).
3 Incidental, intense opposite sex desire (experienced as liking gay/lesbian pornography or sexual acts of a diverse nature).
4 Regular, intense opposite sex desire (see above).
5 Absolute (the person is homo-romantic/social, but needs opposite sex activity in order to be fulfilled).

7 Homosexual

Fluidity hasn't been taken into account because it affects a person's primary attraction over time, but doesn't change the different types of sexual identity/expression. Moreover, not all people are sexually fluid.

So, could that clarify how society affects the way in which people are perceived, and how we all feel compelled to identify ourselves, but doesn't change what we are in essence? I hope so.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Isn't your argument contradictory in essence? You're saying that bisexual people have a strong preference that overrides the theoretical concept of "potential attraction to any member of both genders" and thus, don't have a right to be offended or angry when someone assumes that their sexual identity is anything other than bisexual, for their primary attraction or personal preferences override the rules of the general concept.

Okay first off I don't really buy all that much into the Kinsey scale. I consider it useful only as one possible paradigm that categorizes the range of how people socialize and how they sexualize, but that's all. It's not a hard science or a binding gospel, it's one theoretical framework. It's used way too often as some kind of hard rulebook or science in LGBT discussions to prove whatever kind of point the person in question wants to. "Look, see, everyone/the majority is bi." "Look, see, no straight person EVER would do ANYTHING, it would put them somewhere else on the Kinsey scale."

I'm far more interested in two things, what can be visually observed, and what people themselves tell you about their own tendencies and experiences. There have been arguments made, even here at JUB, that go all over the place and it's all based on the Kinsey scale as if the Kinsey scale by itself proves anything or shapes reality. In my reality, the overwhelming majority of people are straight to such an extent that those who have same-sex encounters of any kind will do it only in a "very special set of circumstances" category. And gay people, a relatively small minority of the total population, work just the same in reverse, excluding people who grew up in times, places or communities that required forced heterosexual activity for the purposes of survival. Yet this chart is routinely abused to claim humanity all neatly falls along a bell curve or similar type of shape with both gay and straight being virtually equally rare, with most people in a huge hump of bisexual in the middle. That doesn't match what I can see in real life and I'm also not really sure that's even what the Kinsey scale ever really meant to imply, either.

Or, in short *whoosh* that's the sound of the chart going out the window. I don't shape my views around it.

My position is not contradictory. My position is that if someone pursues one gender even to the point of complete exclusivity, I'm not sure where either the bisexual identity, or the insistence on asserting it, has a clear motivation other than avoidance of a homosexual label. I don't buy the tiny handful of scenarios people offered up like they'd somehow be castigated or stared at strangely for ever looking at a woman while they go about a life otherwise 99.9% geared towards same-sex. I'm a gay person and no one treats me like a leper or even notices if I look at a woman or even say something nice about her appearance, or call her attractive.

Hopefully that's clear enough.

 

[pat grimshaw]

^

^^

So much dusty theorising!

The last thread actually had "bisexuals" actually telling about their reality of slipping their penis into a vagina and not prevaricating in very long essays —


http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thr...ike-cock-exclusively/page6?highlight=bisexual

 

[JohnnyAnger]

My position is not contradictory. My position is that if someone pursues one gender even to the point of complete exclusivity, I'm not sure where either the bisexual identity, or the insistence on asserting it, has a clear motivation other than avoidance of a homosexual label. I don't buy the tiny handful of scenarios people offered up like they'd somehow be castigated or stared at strangely for ever looking at a woman while they go about a life otherwise 99.9% geared towards same-sex. I'm a gay person and no one treats me like a leper or even notices if I look at a woman or even say something nice about her appearance, or call her attractive.

Hopefully that's clear enough.

I agree completely with you on the Kinsey stuff - it's overplayed and misused.

This last section though is still rather odd - I feel like you are being hostile towards the existence of bisexuality. I think this idea of people using bisexuality as a half way house is a complete straw man argument designed to hate on bisexuals and pretend they are all out to deceive us. I just can't see why outing yourself as enjoying same sex relationships, as well as heterosexual relationships, is some how safe? You are still putting it out there you like cock - just you are being as truthful to your own experiences as you can be by saying you are bisexual.

Why can't you just take someone's word on their sexuality? They are out as not being heterosexual, that to me is enough.

 

[mikemizanin729]

I see the threads still alive and kicking.

 

[Rolyo85]

I agree any one particular relationship status has little/nothing to do with it. However I suspect there are any number of things that people are "getting" out of a false labelling, whether those benefits are real or imagined, and whether they are social or only internal and psychological, when they identify as something other than the big G (and all of its tropes, stigmas, stereotypes, connotations and pigeonholes) while they otherwise pursue only the same gender... whether their ID is "I'm straight" or "I'm bi." Surely we don't pretend there's "no reason" that gay men who self-label as straight are doing it for "no reason", do we?

Let's face it. People don't grow up hearing daily ranting about how evil and gross and effeminate and unmanly and uncool bisexuals are. They grow up hearing that about homos. There's a very obvious possible motivation for a bi label to be more comfortable for people who are not comfortable with homosexuality or with being associated with its identity. I don't really know why we're all trying to kid ourselves that there's "no" motivation for someone to falsely label or being asked to pretend that's the case.

The first day in any demographics course would rather neatly tie up the problems with unquestioned self-labels: people routinely lie or fib or grab onto vagueness to make up "cool" identities and avoid "uncool" ones about ethnicity like crazy. In short? People do lie about labels, every day, even on anonymous surveys, in big numbers. That wouldn't be in any way controversial to say in academia because it's a known problem with self-ID's. But it produces a wig-out here.

This.

We are in a gay forum, so I am assuming most or all of us are to one extent or another part of a gay community somewhere. DO however try and remember what it was like before you came out, and especially before coming to terms with being gay/bi at all. Let's be real, heterosexual society considers bisexuality "hot". Of course, that's because frat boys love to watch women make out, but the point is, there is no stigma on female bisexuality, and male bisexuality is either ignored or thought of as part of being "open to experiences" or some such ignorant shit. It's only insecure women who are afraid their man will leave them for another man, who have problems with it, and let's face it - it's closeted gays who are at fault here, not actual bisexuals.


Almost EVERY gay kid who was in the process of coming to terms with his sexuality, went through a "bi" stage, where he'd pretend he was into both. To say that there's no reason why anyone would claim to be bi when they're not, is not just willfully ignorant, it's purely idiotic.

 

[Rolyo85]

Good on you. You'll note that your response was full of I's and Me's, right? Your own decisions are just that, and no one has any business harping on what someone else chooses to do regarding the spouting of identity. I see both gay and straight people 'shouting their identity from the rooftops' whether they're in a relationship or not, but it seems to me that this thread is only complaining about bi guys doing it. They're doing the same actions of their counterparts, but the only ones that get picked on for it are the bisexuals. And the Femme's, when regarding men.

In other news, it's (personally) damned humorous I'm defending anyone along these lines. There's a difference between "You're mistaken, I'm bi/straight/queer/gay/what-have-you" and someone who goes around announcing their sexuality every three and a half minutes. I've seen the latter, but the former is much more prevalent. Probably because the latter usually comes from newly out people and straight people with gigantic insecurities.

Although maybe not so gigantic, culture really seems to aim to enhance one's own sexual insecurities.

I don't know what the thread is supposed to be about, but the conversation is not about bisexuals shouting their identity from the rooftops, it's about people having a purse-clutching hissy fit over other people pointing out that MANY CLOSETED OR IN DENIAL HOMOSEXUALS CLAIM A FALSE BI IDENTITY.

I don't see anyone denying bisexuals' existence, or pointing finger at a specific person and saying "no, you're not bi" (other than the dude at the video, who... yeah, come on, pls ). Mostly I see people doing a JUB reenactment of Concerned Women for America over theoretical compositions, and the fact that someone has the temerity to *gasp* not accept every self-proclaimed identity at face value.


I notice nobody here has yet said anything about my calling myself straight...

 

[luckynumbah7]

This.

We are in a gay forum, so I am assuming most or all of us are to one extent or another part of a gay community somewhere. DO however try and remember what it was like before you came out, and especially before coming to terms with being gay/bi at all. Let's be real, heterosexual society considers bisexuality "hot". Of course, that's because frat boys love to watch women make out, but the point is, there is no stigma on female bisexuality, and male bisexuality is either ignored or thought of as part of being "open to experiences" or some such ignorant shit. It's only insecure women who are afraid their man will leave them for another man, who have problems with it, and let's face it - it's closeted gays who are at fault here, not actual bisexuals.

Why is it everyone forgets about women in conversations referencing bisexuality and what makes you lot think they're peachy keen with women liking other women? And no one, for the love of anything holy, bother wasting time typing "when they get drunk they'll kiss each other to help land themselves land a guy" or I'm gonna call "Skeevy behavior that's nothing to do with actually being attracted to women." and we'll move right on.

Hell, for that matter, straight men don't like bi/lesbians either, for the most part. They like women who'll focus on them during sexual situations. Which is where that lovely 'rape them straight' meme comes from. It's only hot so long as it isn't considered real attraction. Which is also why physical violence against them tends to be lower - you don't generally hurt something that's not considered real. Unless, of course, it's deviating in 'dangerous ways'. Like, say, butch women.

I mean, I know reflection on social construction tends to be low, particularly on forums, but having people think before they hit send is always beneficial.

 

[Rolyo85]

They can fall back, but only if they start lying about themselves. If you are an openly bi guy, who has slept with men, do you really think homophobes are going to like you? I mean I can pass as straight, and don't always tell people I am gay, so I get straight privilege - a lot of gay men are just read as straight by others and don't point out otherwise. Of course femme and camp guys get more shit than most others (bi and straight guys can be like that though), but for most of us homophobia exists only when you are open. If you are open about being bi and attracted to men - homophobes don't give a shit that you like pussy as well.

Part of the problem here is that there is no "bi culture" as such. There is heterosexual culture - the world we live in, - and homosexual culture - the enclaves of "opposite" that exist within that world. Since bisexuality doesn't cover anything other than those two things, bi people who are out tend to be part of either or both of straight and gay cultures. But that also means playing by the rules of each and potentially not quite fitting in either, depending on the particulars of their circumstances. That said, the couple of bisexuals I know, who I know for a fact are bisexuals, have no trouble being part of gay culture, and nor do they get questioned and browbeaten by the evil gays either.

 

[pat grimshaw]

...I notice nobody here has yet said anything about my calling myself straight...

I will when you show us some torso pictures.

 

[Rolyo85]

Some people don't feel the need and consider sexuality a private matter unless it comes up. Which isn't the same as being in the closet.

Kinda is actually...

 

[Rolyo85]

Why is it everyone forgets about women in conversations referencing bisexuality and what makes you lot think they're peachy keen with women liking other women? And no one, for the love of anything holy, bother wasting time typing "when they get drunk they'll kiss each other to help land themselves land a guy" or I'm gonna call "Skeevy behavior that's nothing to do with actually being attracted to women." and we'll move right on.

Hell, for that matter, straight men don't like bi/lesbians either, for the most part. They like women who'll focus on them during sexual situations. Which is where that lovely 'rape them straight' meme comes from. It's only hot so long as it isn't considered real attraction. Which is also why physical violence against them tends to be lower - you don't generally hurt something that's not considered real. Unless, of course, it's deviating in 'dangerous ways'. Like, say, butch women.

I mean, I know reflection on social construction tends to be low, particularly on forums, but having people think before they hit send is always beneficial.

That would be why most hetero porn has lesbian sex in it, right?

What hetero men don't like is "dykes" - butch lesbians that you can tell hate dick. Lipsticks they drool over because it's two women that will potentially have a threesome with them.

 

[luckynumbah7]

That would be why most hetero porn has lesbian sex in it, right?

What hetero men don't like is "dykes" - butch lesbians that you can tell hate dick. Lipsticks they drool over because it's two women that will potentially have a threesome with them.

Not....exactly. They don't like the conventionally attractive women who won't date or fuck them, either. Whether they're straight, gay, or bi. Which is where the second-to-last line comes in. It's why there's still spiels on what Good Girls Do and guys are expected to go in the other direction with regards to sex.