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On Topic Discussion What do you think about bisexuals?

I agree completely with you on the Kinsey stuff - it's overplayed and misused.

This last section though is still rather odd - I feel like you are being hostile towards the existence of bisexuality. I think this idea of people using bisexuality as a half way house is a complete straw man argument designed to hate on bisexuals and pretend they are all out to deceive us. I just can't see why outing yourself as enjoying same sex relationships, as well as heterosexual relationships, is some how safe? You are still putting it out there you like cock - just you are being as truthful to your own experiences as you can be by saying you are bisexual.

Why can't you just take someone's word on their sexuality? They are out as not being heterosexual, that to me is enough.

Maybe we have completely different experiences. The bisexual people who show a sexual interest in both genders are something I am told exists, online. I do believe that it exists. But I don't see it.

The bisexual people I see offline show a discomfort of being thought of as gay, and otherwise pursue love lives which are either definitively hetero or definitively homosexual. Women tend to be the former and men tend to be the latter. I know many gay men with long-term "bi" boyfriends or husbands. I don't know any straight women with "bi" boyfriends or husbands. Perhaps that ties back into your former discussion with someone else about how you don't really see bi people ever using or being able to take advantage of "straight privilege"... if lots of bi guys are in settled relationships with women, they don't seem to be as vocally reminding their girlfriends, wives and friends of their bisexuality as they do when they are involved with the same gender.

It's quite possible my experiences or my sample selection are skewed to some degree or other. But I'm also really wary of people online telling you that because someone says something online, you should disregard what you see and hear with your own eyes and ears to be unreliable or the opposite of reality-- whether that's how viable 6-way relationships are (they just get a bad rap from closed-minded people and are much more common than you think!) or how monogamy is just a heteronormative fiction so if you feel jealous you're just accepting heteronormative ideas, or similar claims you can easily find online. I pretty much opened my participation in this thread (I think--- I could be confusing it with another similar thread) stating that I believe bisexuality exists, but that people you'd know were bisexual through observation of their behavior are very very rare, that I know of none offline, and that it's much rarer than the total number of people claiming the ID. I do not believe all or even most of the discrepancy involved between those two things are merely other people being closedminded, bi-bashing, or similar. I believe that people identify as bi for all kinds of reasons only one of which is a legitimate and viable sexual romantic interest in both genders. I could not guess what percentage of bi people are this and that. I can only say that there are virtually no people I've seen offline who date both men and women... but quite a few people identifying as bisexual.

Regarding the question at the end of your post, it's not like I'm in charge of stamping passports with a certified sexual orientation on them and I don't pretend to be. People can identify however they like, just like they can do so on an anonymous ethnicity survey. (Wow, how'd we get 5x more Irish and a third as many Iranians than we know are here?) But I think in both cases all kinds of pressures, social attitudes, and social stigmas are weighing on the answers you will receive.

I do think there are reasons for a false label of bi, I've elaborated them in a few posts. To me it's inexplicable why pointing that out always provokes a response that implies that the bi identity is incredibly fragile and the slightest questioning is a threat to its very existence.
 
Not....exactly. They don't like the conventionally attractive women who won't date or fuck them, either. Whether they're straight, gay, or bi. Which is where the second-to-last line comes in. It's why there's still spiels on what Good Girls Do and guys are expected to go in the other direction with regards to sex.

That would be why I was talking about bisexual women and not lesbians.
 
No, it really is, when you know you're being thought of as straight.

And there's another glaring example of wrongness. Not everyone is assumed straight. People do get so damn tired of assumptions about their person that they let most of the assumptions (unless directly asked, and sometimes not even then with the reply of "Neither your business nor your concern.") just slide on by because it's not worth trying to deal with 'em anymore. That includes straight people getting ribbed about their love life, or assumed lack thereof.
 
Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
Not....exactly. They don't like the conventionally attractive women who won't date or fuck them, either. Whether they're straight, gay, or bi. Which is where the second-to-last line comes in. It's why there's still spiels on what Good Girls Do and guys are expected to go in the other direction with regards to sex.



And what makes you think that just because someone is bisexual, that everyone (meaning women in this case) are "on the table", as it were? Is it like when straight guys assume that they have the ability, nay, the right, do date whatever woman they want regardless of their wishes? Because that is the general underlying consensus.

When I said conventionally attractive woman I didn't mean 'lipstick lesbian', I meant conventionally attractive woman.

Nothing makes ME think ANYTHING. I was talking about the lack of stigma on bisexuality in straight world, and the reasons for it. I wasn't debating bisexual women at all. Most of the chicks that make out with each other in hetero porn are straight anyway, but it's the perception that I was talking about.
 
And there's another glaring example of wrongness. Not everyone is assumed straight. People do get so damn tired of assumptions about their person that they let most of the assumptions (unless directly asked, and sometimes not even then with the reply of "Neither your business nor your concern.") just slide on by because it's not worth trying to deal with 'em anymore. That includes straight people getting ribbed about their love life, or assumed lack thereof.

No, everyone IS assumed straight, unless they exhibit surface signs of "otherness" - femininity in boys, butchness in girls. In which case they MIGHT be assumed gay. But the super feminine guys are rarely straight, and either way, I am yet to hear a femmie straight dude say "I don't flaunt my heterosexuality, it's nobody's business". Somehow, just like it's always dudes dating/fucking other dudes that are the most shrill about being bi, it's also straight-passing gay men who are the loudest about how their sexuality is "nobody's business".

Lying by omission is still lying. Sorry 'bout it.
 
Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
Not....exactly. They don't like the conventionally attractive women who won't date or fuck them, either. Whether they're straight, gay, or bi. Which is where the second-to-last line comes in. It's why there's still spiels on what Good Girls Do and guys are expected to go in the other direction with regards to sex.


That would be why I was talking about bisexual women and not lesbians.

I typed conventionally attractive woman and I mean conventionally attractive woman. It wasn't code for lipstick lesbian. What makes you think bi women would be open to dating or having sex with any guy on the planet? Bisexual isn't code for "Fuck anything that moves" and it also doesn't actually mean "equal opportunity", since there's no such thing in the relationship world. I'm fairly certain you know this, since you said you were bisexual. Even the much touted '50/50' lot have preferences about their partners.

*Had a longer post, thought it was a double post, deleted it on accident.

In other words, you can drop the "Bisexual women are accepted cuz they're hot" because last I checked, acceptance wasn't code for "Lemmie fuck you".

Although for some reason a lot of guys seem to think it does. I think that's called internalized sexism right there, of the specifically misogynistic kind. Awfully hard to root out, innit.
 
Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
Not....exactly. They don't like the conventionally attractive women who won't date or fuck them, either. Whether they're straight, gay, or bi. Which is where the second-to-last line comes in. It's why there's still spiels on what Good Girls Do and guys are expected to go in the other direction with regards to sex.




I typed conventionally attractive woman and I mean conventionally attractive woman. It wasn't code for lipstick lesbian. What makes you think bi women would be open to dating or having sex with any guy on the planet? Bisexual isn't code for "Fuck anything that moves" and it also doesn't actually mean "equal opportunity", since there's no such thing in the relationship world. I'm fairly certain you know this, since you said you were bisexual. Even the much touted '50/50' lot have preferences about their partners.

*Had a longer post, thought it was a double post, deleted it on accident.

In other words, you can drop the "Bisexual women are accepted cuz they're hot" because last I checked, acceptance wasn't code for "Lemmie fuck you".

Although for some reason a lot of guys seem to think it does. I think that's called internalized sexism right there, of the specifically misogynistic kind. Awfully hard to root out, innit.

I am talking about bisexuality and the reasons for why it's acceptable to straight MEN (who form the majority of heteorsexual opinion).

You are talking about bisexual women specifically, and random factors around them.

We are not talking about the same thing. Get with the program.
 
Because it's who the person is. It's who he is, not the gender of who he's dating. We allow virgin youths to come out as gay and we don't say "Why do you even label yourself that way? You haven't even been with anyone yet. You should call yourself asexual at best..."

A person's sexuality does not whither away and become fixated on just one person, even in a successful monogamous relationship. They always have potential beyond that relationship.

Good comparison!
 
My position is not contradictory. My position is that if someone pursues one gender even to the point of complete exclusivity, I'm not sure where either the bisexual identity, or the insistence on asserting it, has a clear motivation other than avoidance of a homosexual label. I don't buy the tiny handful of scenarios people offered up like they'd somehow be castigated or stared at strangely for ever looking at a woman while they go about a life otherwise 99.9% geared towards same-sex. I'm a gay person and no one treats me like a leper or even notices if I look at a woman or even say something nice about her appearance, or call her attractive.

Ever heard of honesty?

The real irony here is that if a guy who is 90/10 bisexual but never told his BF, gets hot over some chick he ran into, most people here would be saying what a total jerk and fake he is for not telling. It's lose-lose for bi guys -- be honest and get dissed, or don't be honest ad get dissed.
 
Ever heard of honesty?

The real irony here is that if a guy who is 90/10 bisexual but never told his BF, gets hot over some chick he ran into, most people here would be saying what a total jerk and fake he is for not telling. It's lose-lose for bi guys -- be honest and get dissed, or don't be honest ad get dissed.

This doesn't sound like anything that's ever happened in reality.
 
I don't know what the thread is supposed to be about, but the conversation is not about bisexuals shouting their identity from the rooftops, it's about people having a purse-clutching hissy fit over other people pointing out that MANY CLOSETED OR IN DENIAL HOMOSEXUALS CLAIM A FALSE BI IDENTITY.

No, it's about people taking that fact and using it to say that no bi person can be trusted or that bisexuality doesn't even exist.
 
Ever heard of honesty?

The real irony here is that if a guy who is 90/10 bisexual but never told his BF, gets hot over some chick he ran into, most people here would be saying what a total jerk and fake he is for not telling. It's lose-lose for bi guys -- be honest and get dissed, or don't be honest ad get dissed.

I find the notion of a 90/10 bisexual who suddenly gets so enamored with a woman it creates a rift in his male-male relationship to be a scenario that strains plausibility. I also find the notion odd of running home and telling someone you're in a relationship with that you're attracted to someone else.

Are you seriously implying the importance of the bi identity is for a long-term boyfriend to be prepared that you have some tiny marginal tickles of attraction for women?

I don't even buy into the idea that having those defines a hard barrier between bi and gay anyway. As I said earlier in the discussion, if bi = 1% to 99% gay, then plenty of gay men are also "bi" but simply do not identify as such.
 
Ever heard of honesty?

The real irony here is that if a guy who is 90/10 bisexual but never told his BF, gets hot over some chick he ran into, most people here would be saying what a total jerk and fake he is for not telling. It's lose-lose for bi guys -- be honest and get dissed, or don't be honest ad get dissed.

I don't think so. I don't see why this would be an issue. A lot of gay men have some attraction for some women. They just choose to identify as gay.
 
Okay first off I don't really buy all that much into the Kinsey scale. I consider it useful only as one possible paradigm that categorizes the range of how people socialize and how they sexualize, but that's all. It's not a hard science or a binding gospel, it's one theoretical framework. It's used way too often as some kind of hard rulebook or science in LGBT discussions to prove whatever kind of point the person in question wants to. "Look, see, everyone/the majority is bi." "Look, see, no straight person EVER would do ANYTHING, it would put them somewhere else on the Kinsey scale."

I'm far more interested in two things, what can be visually observed, and what people themselves tell you about their own tendencies and experiences. There have been arguments made, even here at JUB, that go all over the place and it's all based on the Kinsey scale as if the Kinsey scale by itself proves anything or shapes reality. In my reality, the overwhelming majority of people are straight to such an extent that those who have same-sex encounters of any kind will do it only in a "very special set of circumstances" category. And gay people, a relatively small minority of the total population, work just the same in reverse, excluding people who grew up in times, places or communities that required forced heterosexual activity for the purposes of survival. Yet this chart is routinely abused to claim humanity all neatly falls along a bell curve or similar type of shape with both gay and straight being virtually equally rare, with most people in a huge hump of bisexual in the middle. That doesn't match what I can see in real life and I'm also not really sure that's even what the Kinsey scale ever really meant to imply, either.

Or, in short *whoosh* that's the sound of the chart going out the window. I don't shape my views around it.

My position is not contradictory. My position is that if someone pursues one gender even to the point of complete exclusivity, I'm not sure where either the bisexual identity, or the insistence on asserting it, has a clear motivation other than avoidance of a homosexual label. I don't buy the tiny handful of scenarios people offered up like they'd somehow be castigated or stared at strangely for ever looking at a woman while they go about a life otherwise 99.9% geared towards same-sex. I'm a gay person and no one treats me like a leper or even notices if I look at a woman or even say something nice about her appearance, or call her attractive.

Hopefully that's clear enough.

The Kinsey scale is so often quoted because it reflects a wide spectrum of human sexuality based on observational studies. It isn't absolutive in nature for the simple reason that it doesn't reflect how people feel or perceive themselves and their actions, but merely how they act in relation to their attractions and desires, as you have very aptly pointed out. The truth is that it is mentioned so often because it is the most effective framework that we can utilize at the moment of presenting a picture of how far-ranging and complex sexuality can be, and its misuse comes from the fact that people view it as a collection of numbers which reflect their own experiences and prejudices, rather than an attempt to explain what people do, and why. Still, Kinsey only attempted to reflect sexuality in a non-binding way; which is to say, he wanted to establish that there isn't just one single form of sexuality and that sexual expression outside of hetero-normative principles isn't in essence deviant or abnormal. In that regard, I believe that the Kinsey scale is extremely useful, because it does establish very broad, general guidelines under which we can study and understand sexual orientation. It never attempted to say "if you are in 1, you will never do what the people in 5 do!". That is, as you have also pointed out, merely a reflection of the scale user's own biases. In that regard, we can both agree.

However, it is useful in determining how things are beyond social dogma and ideological impositions. Statistical analysis shows that people are more willing to admit both engaging in behaviours which deviate from the so-called norm, and their strong negative responses to those same behaviours, if they believe that they will not be identified and thus, will not suffer any reprisals. The truth is that the incidence of bisexuality in function is higher than is reported, because many people are unwilling to admit it. Thus, is the majority of the population bisexual? There is no way of knowing due to social bias, especially because anecdotic analysis of one's own experiences doesn't reveal much beyond what those around us want to share, and it is also conditioned by how they want to share it. I, for instance, have been in several situations in which so-called straight men have been both aggressively and intimidatingly sexual towards me (which was good up to a certain extent, because now I know how painful and offensive it is for women). In addition, I know people who claim to only sleep with heterosexual men, and they are certainly not short on sexual partners/lovers. Based on that assumption, would it be safe for me to say that, in my reality, many people are bisexual or gay but negativize it to such an extent that they can only express their desires in ways that are immoral and/or degrading to others? Certainly not, because my experiences and the experiences of some of the men I know, do not reflect the reality of other people’s lives (such as in your case). I think that approaching a rational analysis on sexuality based on what we see every day, taken at face value, is very dangerous.

Moreover, regarding your comment about situational homosexuality, I don’t think that environments like prison, where sexual violence and enslavement are used to show dominance over other inmates, is a reflection of a “potential” conditioning factor towards selective same sex acts, and the same is applicable to boarding schools or the army. With the exclusion of prison, where violence is prevalent, many people find themselves in single-gender environments and never engage in any same sex activity. Those who do so, are acting on their desires, even if their perception of themselves is detached from whatever negative view anyone has of those acts. As for genuinely heterosexual men who seek out same sex partners, they only do so in VERY extreme and anomalous conditions – prostitutes, abuse victims and Narcissists would be three almost exclusive cases.

Finally, I’d like to say something: there is a tendency in nature for most populations to congregate in the middle of two extremes. Bisexual and homosexual behaviour has been found in many species, and it is only normal to assume that humanity would fall somewhere in the middle regarding sexuality as well. Just as most people lie in the 90-110 range in IQ tests, or most populations tend to fall in average ranges of physical development depending on their available sources of nourishment. Why would assume the same about sexuality be so outlandish? Social conditioning doesn’t necessarily reflect the reality about people’s behaviour, does it?

As for finding women attractive, I would imagine that anyone reacts to beauty. However, appreciation and actual romantic interest/desire are two VERY different things. Still, if you do feel an interest for women beyond the realm of what is merely aesthetic, I would say that you, or anybody else in your situation, is an incidentally bisexual person – which is nothing negative in itself, and does contradict your initial point. We are free to label ourselves, but semantic games based on our aspirations, emotional needs and perceptions do not change our objective reality.
 
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