What do you think about the pope's new issue?

[Alnitak]

Just like in a huge international conglomerate , where the CEO appoints heads of depts . Francis is the one to elevate priests to the Red-Robes .
He is a far from stupid man , and if anyone thinks he is , remember the order he was ordained into . If he can gradually steer the choice of younger more "radical" Bishops in positions of real power . Then perhaps he may yet surprise you .

He won't have enough time. Perhaps if he were a decade younger.

 

[goldenmoth]

It's a cool idea and I really hope he succeeds in stopping people from taking potshots at us and actually try and help the poor for a change but I still prefer science

 

[lambdaboy]

If I were not an atheist to be a Christian in most religions when your gay would never work for me. I had two very very hot guys Mormons come to my door. I said no way I would join your church I am gay. one of them said I was gay before you can change. I said come in here for 15 min you will be gay again buddy. They lef! I could never belong to a religion that says god loves you not your sin be celibate.

 

[blackbeltninja]

And this is the attitude that a lot of homophobes try to take because it is more politically correct. Rather than say "we hate fags", they say "we love fags, but we hate the faggory ways".

Well

The way I see it is this:

1. In the Bible, Mr God loves testing the faith of his people. There are numerous examples of this.
2. Being challenged in whatever way is seen as another way to test your faith. You're blind and life is hard - do you give up your faith, or do you persevere knowing the rewards in the next life (allegedly) far outweigh the pain of this one?
3. Being tempted is another favourite - do you succumb, or does it make your faith and will to be better even stronger?

So perhaps being gay is our cross to bear, our temptation, our challenge. Perhaps Mr God really does want us to fight it and not succumb, and not lie with another man as we would with a woman. Being sexless (as in being a non-practicing gay) won't kill you; plenty of people are celibate either through choice or circumstance and don't drop off as a result of it. So if we practice, we are being willfully and persistently disobedient, and should be subject to all the fury Mr God will throw at us when we die.

Personally, I can't reconcile that with the image of Mr God being a loving and forgiving master. But those do seem to be the rules as laid out in The Book, so...

I'm amazed by the guys who can have a faith and still be willfully and persistently disobedient by ignoring the relevant parts of The Book. I don't know how they can reconcile the two ideas. I like to think that believers would do what The Book says, not pick and choose the parts which suit them in a sort of Christianity-lite kind of way. I mean, if you choose to break certain part of the law in your country and you get caught, you get nailed. Personally I don't believe religion should be any different.

But since are there are so many contradictory parts to The Book, I find it more logical to just be a non-believer.

-d-

 

[umjreon88]

Interesting stance I have to say... He is not really endorsing the Anti-LGBT hate groups either with his statement!

 

[zombiekiller]

^^

I know it's progress. But at the same time, it's very very little progress considering the times. The homophobia displayed by the church is staggering at this point in time. This is not 1950. This is 2013, soon to be 2014.

Going back to your box of food example, what we're getting from the pope isn't a box of food. It's more like half a piece of candy.

Remember jim crow and segregation? I'm sure there were plenty of people back then telling black folks to just take it because it was progress from slavery.

 

[gsdx]

But since are there are so many contradictory parts to The Book, I find it more logical to just be a non-believer.

It's not so much that they are contradictory as they are translated according to the mores of the day. Whichever issue is the 'talk of the town' becomes the 'sin of the day', and the translations reflect that.

The word 'unclean' in Leviticus 18:22, for instance, has been translated as 'an abomination', 'an unforgivable sin', and any number of other dastardly terms used in the various versions of the Bible. In fact, the original Hebrew says that 2 men should not share a marital bed. It's not a sin. It's just 'unclean'. God isn't saying that 2 men shouldn't have sex together. He's just saying they shouldn't have it in a marital bed. It's the human translators who have turned it into a sin.

 

[Taz]

Bah.

It isn't realistic for a pope to turn around and say gay is ok, his hateful sheep (read a good chunk of them) would turn thier backs on him. But at least he is taking a step in the right direction.

As for does the bible say gay is wrong? Yes, you can interpret it differently if you want, but then I think you're as bad as the bible badgers that take other more innocuous verses and repurpose those against whatever it is they are hating on. That said, the bible says a whole lot of things are dirty and wrong that are just plain silly. Point being a lot of the teachings of the bible are outdated, and should be left in the past. The message we should take from it if we believe, is that of love and forgiveness.

 

[PABear]

One thing we need to remember is that the Catholic Church is a HUGE organization. I look at Pope Francis and I am astounded by how much he is bringing them forward. I realize that he is NOT where we want him to be, BUT he's a lot further along in the process and the discussions than his predecessor was. He is only 76. He could easily live another 20 years. And who knows how far he can take the Church in 20 years?

 

[Alnitak]

Er, his office IS gravitas.

The length of his reign will determine the extent of his lasting power. Pope John XXIII convened Vatican II, and the waves it began are still churning.

Catholicism cannot be wished away or dismissed simply because this or that movement sees it as obsolete, out of touch, or repressive. Its adherents are under no delusions where corruption or hypocrisy are concerned: they see it from low to high. Yet, every institution has myriad flaws. History continues to prove Catholicism doesn't have fatal flaws. It's numbers increase while it remains the largest order of Christianity on the planet.

The notion that gays and gay allies are going to somehow usher in the HRCC's apocalypse is intentionally ignorant of the global marginalization of gays and the tenacity of Catholicism. To see Pope Francis' alliance with gays as a shrewd by cynical political move is to impute a need that Catholicism does not have.

The shrill Fundamentalists are outstripping their Protestant brethren by leaps and bounds and their (Fundamentalist) rhetoric goes unabated on the gay issue. The Catholics have no need to be pro-gay to attract adherents.

If Pope Francis is a gay ally, and he appears to be, the objections or resentments of vehemently anti-Christian LGBT individuals will not change the fact that he is indeed an ally.

The repeated notion on JUB that we get to vote in (by sentiment or popularity) who gets to be counted as a gay icon, or in this case, an ally, is comical. People are who they are, alliances and politics are what they are, and it really isn't going to be affected by a being malcontent or peevish about it.

I'm reminded of the kidnapping of Patty Hearst by the SLA. Her "captors" demanded a donation of $1 million dollars worth of food to be distributed to the poor. The Hearst family complied. The evening news aired footage of an 18-wheeler open with staff handing out boxes of food like the food banks give away. One woman was walking away with a box load of food and petulantly complained to the camera in rank ingratitude, "it still ain't enough!"

It's progress. Take your box of food already.

 

[Alnitak]

Not for the timid, Al, not for the timid.

Imagine some thoughts requiring longer consideration and treatment.

 

[Latimer]

Neo-Pelagian.
If I were Francis I'd watch my back.
http://www.theopedia.com/Pelagianism

 

[medic1]

^Great point . He was a Celtic Monk . The Pagan Religion is still alive and strong here in Scotland .
They even hold an annual fire festival at Carlton Hill , which overlooks Edinburgh . It is also the most infamous late-night cruising area in the city .

 

[pat grimshaw]

Your Pope has just excommunicated one of his own.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/church-dumps-rebel-priest-20130920-2u5jp.html

 

[Kahaih]

Ironically . . . or not:

Gift or not, a wise husbandman will always quarantine a 'new' beast to make sure it is sound before allowing it to merge with other stock.

 

[PreTTy PeTe]

The thought of an old fart who maybe or maybe not has never has sex in his life telling me that I might or might not be accepted into the church is just wrong.
I don't know what his intend or motivations are but I'm a skeptic

I was a rebel when I was young because I refused to do my confirmation.......am I going to hell?

 

[chrisrobin]

.
Looking at the "big picture" the Pope is trying to convince young(er) people to return to the Church. Also, he would like to separate the Church from the Old Testament. The New Testament has been highly regarded as the Good News. From the Gospel of St. Luke: "And the angel said unto them (the shepherds) 'do not be afraid, for I bring you good news of great joy which shall come to all the people. For there has been born to you today, a savior who is Christ the Lord."

To be said another way, Pope Francis would like to disassociate the Church from the wankers. He may have even seen this:

or this:

 

[DonQuixote]

ChrisRobin brings up a very salient part - the Old Testament vs. the New.
The Old Testament, and the Talmud, started out as an oral tradition - passed down from generation to generation by mouth, not written word. How many of you played the "Whisper in the first kid's ear and pass it down to the last, then compare" in grammar school?
What did you discover from that exercise? Add in personal biases of the particular purveyors of "God's" word and what do you wind up with?

Leviticus would have us all dead - stoned for eating unclean meat (pork, shellfish, etc.) among other things. The original Kosher Laws were to try and keep sanitation and safe food among the people to minimize dysentery and other things.

The new testament represents the Word of God from Jesus Christ - WRITTEN down within 50 years of Christ's resurrection into heaven. A LOT less time for corruption of the Word.

Part of that Word may surprise you, if you are open to the interpretation, based on the common connotations of words in the original Greek.

http://www.goodhopemcc.org/spiritua...esus-affirmed-a-gay-couple-matthew-85-13.html

A little more background vis. a vis. the Church and its members - for We ARE the Body and Blood of Christ.
When the revised Lectionary/Order of Mass was promulgated, there was lively debate - some of the so-called-Conservative (I call pre-Vatican II thought minded, but nowhere near the Conservative as in What Would Jesus Do) members were actually promoting the idea of a Smaller but more faithful church. The word "catholic" means UNIVERSAL - ALL, EVERYONE. Their very thought processes are corrupt. Pope Francis is steering us back on the course from Christ, as intended in Vatican II reforms.

Pat Grimshaw:
Re: the excommunication of the priest - that does not surprise me, even as the second most powerful man in the Vatican has had conversations on the possibility of Married Priests. I live in a diocese that had a similar, very loving, active priest - his parish wound up forming their own church, using one of our local Schools of Music for their Sunday worship. He has ordained at least one woman priest.

Spiritus Christi.

Our Good (now retired) Bishop, found himself in the position of having to issue the same order - and he had parishioners with websites with countdown clocks counting the years, months, weeks, days, hours, and seconds until he retired because he was too liberal - when a Bishop attains mandatory retirement age (85?) he must tender his resignation. Normally, Rome leaves them in full office until a replacement is named. Pope Benedict and his minions immediately accepted his resignation, appoint the (more "conservative" Bishop of Syracuse) as our Parochial Administrator. Still no Bishop - I suspect because Francis put a hold on all such appointments that may have been in the works until HE knows the candidates hearts.

Pope Francis is a breath of Fresh Air. I think we will be ecstatically happy in the long run.
Yes, there are those, narrow-minded people who may leave the church - but there are just as many if not more who will flock to the church - or at least stand up and shout Hallelujah.

Someone posted a chart of National Tolerance for Gay Marriage awhile back - the "Catholic" countries were the ones at the HIGH Acceptance % of the chart. We are not all the ignorant, illiterate peasants the Church once dominated. We can read and interpret Christ's teachings for ourselves.

 

[DonQuixote]

Here's a link to Spiritus Christi for those interested.

http://www.spirituschristi.org/spirituschristi.org/Welcome.html

 

[Kulindahr]

No idea - I don't subscribe.

I think the pope is doing the right thing, and doing it the right way. He may be the pontiff, but I doubt he can reverse several centuries of ingrained homophobia in the Church simply by announcing "Gays are now OK". That would simply lead to huge arguments throughout the faith, and possibly with his removal (at which point he'd be replaced with a more "traditional" pontiff). I think this pope can in fact be the effect of some hefty change within the Church. But he can't jump to the finish line. He has to lead the church there. And his comments make sense within that context. He is asking people Catholics to reflect specifically on how Jesus and God would treat homosexuals, and suggesting that they focus on other, more pressing concerns. I think that's the best first step.

Lex

When 'evangelicals' say "What would Jesus do?" it's almost always an intro to bringing in some legalism. But when a pope does it, well, the Roman Church is so steeped in legalism it tends to be a reach toward compassion and mercy.

Your Pope has just excommunicated one of his own.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/church-dumps-rebel-priest-20130920-2u5jp.html

No excommunication without stated reason is valid.