What is a 'gay man?', an article I'm writing

[Lube]

Not hiring someone because he's black is discrimination. Believing a stereotype about a person is a prejudgment, which makes the holder prejudiced.

Thinking that someone might watch a particular tv show because of a characteristic that person has is prejudiced. Do you assume all black people watch the Cosby show? And all old people watch Murder she wrote? Stereotyped prejudices.

Refusing to friend someone because they can't be bothered to learn about you, and instead rely on stereotypes as a basis of friendships sounds like a good plan.

As you say, believing or concluding something about someone is prejudice.

Thinking they're more likely to like something, in and of itself, is not prejudice.

Buying a boy a military toy is prejudiced because you've already concluded he likes it, and acted on that conclusion without talking to him specifically.

Asking if a boy wants a military toy is not being prejudiced because you are not concluding without confirming with a specific person. It's just an (incorrect, in some cases) generalization.

Naughty was saying he refused to talk to someone who made an incorrect generalization. That's prejudice. Naughty "knows" he's a bad person because he made an incorrect generalization. That's a pretty big leap. Is anyone good enough? I make mistakes all the time. Seems harsh.

 

[Dduder]

We don't have to pretend. We are. Let's not say that we happen to be different because we are not. That's extremely ignorant and pure bullshit.

Yes, the only difference between straight and gay men is that the latter like dick. That's right: gay men are straight guys who like dick. Funny that we don't see the same numbers of straight men at Gwen Stefani or Lady Gaga concerts as gay men, even though gay men are only 2% of the male population so there should be 50 times more straight men there than gay men if they had an equivalent amount of interest. Funny how pretty much all men attending fashion shows are gay even though there are 50 times more straight men than gay men. Just funny since according to you there are no differences between straight and gay men except sexual preference.

 

[fetaby]

Asking if a boy wants a military toy is not being prejudiced because you are not concluding without confirming with a specific person.

Then why are you asking about a "military" toy? Why not just take the kid to the store?

...............

Naughty was saying he refused to talk to someone who made an incorrect generalization. That's prejudice. Naughty "knows" he's a bad person because he made an incorrect generalization.

I'm gay, you know I'm gay. You think I like a show because I'm gay. That's idiocy.

Feel free to surround yourself with as many idiots as you want.

 

[Lube]

Do you assume all black people watch the Cosby show?

No, that's prejudging.

Do I assume that they are more likely to have watched it? Yes. Because it is factually true.

If I met a 40 year old black person, and the conversation turned to TV, I would never ask, "Who was your favorite character on the Cosby Show"! That's coming to a conclusion with no evidence from this particular person. would I ask him if he liked the show? Yes. Because then I would get a factual answer. And I'd ask specifically about the Cosby Show because he's simply more likely to have watched it.

Should he not talk to me because I made that generalization, without prejudging? I hope not.

 

[fetaby]

No, that's prejudging.

Do I assume that they are more likely to have watched it? Yes. Because it is factually true.

If I met a 40 year old black person, and the conversation turned to TV, I would never ask, "Who was your favorite character on the Cosby Show"! That's coming to a conclusion with no evidence from this particular person. would I ask him if he liked the show? Yes. Because then I would get a factual answer. And I'd ask specifically about the Cosby Show because he's simply more likely to have watched it.

Should he not talk to me because I made that generalization, without prejudging? I hope not.

But that's the thing. A 40 yr old black person, alive during the original airing of that show may or may not have been more likely to view it.

But take the characteristic of being gay. It holds no patterns on how it is or isn't. It happens, to every demographic. Supposing there is a shared identity between individuals across every demographic, other than being human, is folly. And buying into a media hyped stereotype and then expounding it as gospel is, as has been stated, obnoxious.

 

[Dduder]

Too many people making ad hominem attacks and not debating with reason but rather emotion in this thread because they just don't like the facts. I am out of here.

As for the topic of the thread, you guys can pretend like gay men are just as masculine as straight men as much as you want, but you are only fooling yourselves and no one is buying it. In fact, you are not even fooling yourselves because you know it is not true lololololol. A very unpleasant fact remains a fact no matter how much you hate it.

 

[Lube]

But that's the thing. A 40 yr old black person, alive during the original airing of that show may or may not have been more likely to view it.

Did you even look at the link I posted? It was the #2 show for black viewership. It is thus a fact that a 40 year old who watched tv was more likely to watch it than any other show on tv, except the show above it, which was in fact a spinoff of the Cosby show.

How much more evidence do you need? How can you dispute that?

But take the characteristic of being gay. It holds no patterns on how it is or isn't. It happens, to every demographic. Supposing there is a shared identity between individuals across every demographic, other than being human, is folly. And buying into a media hyped stereotype and then expounding it as gospel is, as has been stated, obnoxious.

Tell that to Subaru or Tom Ford or any other frequent advertiser inOut or the Advocate.

 

[fetaby]

Did you even look at the link I posted? It was the #2 show for black viewership. It is thus a fact that a 40 year old who watched tv was more likely to watch it than any other show on tv, except the show above it, which was in fact a spinoff of the Cosby show.

How much more evidence do you need? How can you dispute that?

Until I ask him if he watched it or not, I won't assume he has. Simple.

Tell that to Subaru or Tom Ford or any other frequent advertiser inOut or the Advocate.

Buying into the media hyped stereotype and then expounding it as gospel, as has been stated, is obnoxious.

 

[StlKj]

Yes, let's pretend that the only difference between straight and gay men is the gender of people they are attracted to.

Let's pretend that gay men are just like straight men on average except for their sexual preference.

Let's close our eyes and shut down our brains and pretend that gay men are just like straight men and believe that all stereotypes are simply social constructs with no kernel of truth to them.

Gay men on average have tastes and preferences that are a lot more similar to those of heterosexual women rather than straight guys, but let's pretend that is just a mistaken impression caused by our social conditioning and that our eyes are lying to us and our brains interpreting what we see incorrectly.

I know this because a Berkely professor of sociology said that all differences between people are the result of social conditioning or mistaken stereotyping and that all evidence to the contrary is either the result of social spectations or ideologically maipulated data. This also applies even what our lying eyes tell us.

Most here haven't said there isn't a kernel of truth in some of the stereotypes.

Your problem is that you keep trying to insist a kernel is really a whole fucking bag, with butter, salt and a 64 oz. Pepsi.

 

[StlKj]

I'm not making this stuff up. It's pretty standard genetics.

I don't argue against Pleiotropy. I argue against your use of it in this situation.

 

[StlKj]

Too many people making ad hominem attacks and not debating with reason but rather emotion in this thread because they just don't like the facts. I am out of here.

As for the topic of the thread, you guys can pretend like gay men are just as masculine as straight men as much as you want, but you are only fooling yourselves and no one is buying it. In fact, you are not even fooling yourselves because you know it is not true lololololol. A very unpleasant fact remains a fact no matter how much you hate it.

You know, I don't usually do things like this, and I realize it may have repercussions...

But you're an idiot. And an annoying and offensive one at that.

 

[gsdx]

As you say, believing or concluding something about someone is prejudice.

Thinking they're more likely to like something, in and of itself, is not prejudice.

I once knew a bunch of guys who wore baseball caps. They were ignorant, obnoxious, self-absorbed assholes. How would you feel if I generalised that belief. How would you like it if, because of my encounter with those guys, I began to think it was more likely then not that guys who wear baseball caps would turn out to be ignorant, obnoxious, self-absorbed assholes?

Do you not yet see that you are prejudging us? You have concluded things about us and have made sweeping generalisations which, apparently, apply to "most if not all" of us. You are making claims about about people you don't even know which simply are not true. No matter how many times you repeat yourself, I and many others here will never be what you believe we are.

 

[Lube]

^you say that as if I'm distancing myself from you guys. I'm not. I'm gay, too. People think the same thing about me. It doesn't bother me in the least.

Why does it bother you?

Do you equate watching Glee with being inferior? I don't.

Just don't buy me a boxed set of Glee DVDs without asking first.

 

[gsdx]

Too many people making ad hominem attacks and not debating with reason but rather emotion in this thread because they just don't like the facts. I am out of here.

When you attack us with constant 'factual' statements which are not true when applied to us, do you expect us to be all nicey-nicey and invite you over for tea? Do you not even consider your attacks to be ad hominem? (And 'no', I didn't even have to look that one up. I knew what 'ad hominem' meant many years ago!)

 

[Lube]

I once knew a bunch of guys who wore baseball caps. They were ignorant, obnoxious, self-absorbed assholes. How would you feel if I generalised that belief. How would you like it if, because of my encounter with those guys, I began to think it was more likely then not that guys who wear baseball caps would turn out to be ignorant, obnoxious, self-absorbed assholes?.

You're confusing value judgments ("ignorant", "obnoxious", "self-absorbed") with TV viewing habits or what kind of music someone likes, which have no intrinsic values.

It's you who are assigning negative value judgments to typically gay things like liking Glee (which I don't happen to like) or Duran Duran (which I do).

Sure, many of us were bullied for liking certain things, but that doesn't negate the fact that the general associations are true. I think you need to let go of those judgments, hard as that may be to do.

 

[bulge]

Yes, the only difference between straight and gay men is that the latter like dick. That's right: gay men are straight guys who like dick. Funny that we don't see the same numbers of straight men at Gwen Stefani or Lady Gaga concerts as gay men, even though gay men are only 2% of the male population so there should be 50 times more straight men there than gay men if they had an equivalent amount of interest. Funny how pretty much all men attending fashion shows are gay even though there are 50 times more straight men than gay men. Just funny since according to you there are no differences between straight and gay men except sexual preference.

Many str8 guys love dick. That's why trans are such tremendous success.

Your statistics need amendment: there are 10% core homosexuals, 10% core heterosexuals and 80% bisexuals pretending to be str8.

Lucky we, we are not interested in str8 stupidities. Still, I play soccer though I am 100% gay.

I don't think there are major differences between str8 and gay men. I would like to find some major ones, but I cann't.

 

[bulge]

Those guys are not straight, no matter what they call themselves. They just try to pass as straight.

Not entirely sure about it taking into account the huge anal endowment of many str8s and of men in general. Manhood sits up arse where prostate commands.

 

[Dduder]

You know, I don't usually do things like this, and I realize it may have repercussions...

But you're an idiot. And an annoying and offensive one at that.

You see, this is the perfect example of what I am talking: people throwing emotional tantrums and hissy fits and making it personal instead of debating with reason and logic. Don't like the message, so shoot the messenger. I understand that shooting the messenger gives one enormous satisfaction, but it certainly doesen't kill the message, and in fact only demonstrates that the one making ad hominem invective has no arguments against your arguments and actually deep down agrees with you which leads him to become frustrated and make it very personal.

Since I am being attacked, I am going to repeat the message since I don't back down from intimidation: on average, gay men are very significantly less masculine than straight men evident in their mannerisms, voice, preferences, tastes, and career choices. Everyone in the whole World can see that and that is why the stereotype of the gay male is that of an effeminate man. A stereotype doesen't exist as is for no reason: every sterotype arises because there is some truth to it. For instance, the reason why there is the stereotype that men who work in Silicon Valley tend to be nerdy is because lots of men who work in Silicon Valley are nerdy. Likewise....the stereotype that gay men are effeminate exists because gay men tend to be effeminate.

 

[StlKj]

You see, this is the perfect example of what I am talking: people throwing emotional tantrums and hissy fits and making it personal instead of debating with reason and logic. Don't like the message, so shoot the messenger. I understand that shooting the messenger gives one enormous satisfaction, but it certainly doesen't kill the message, and in fact only demonstrates that the one making ad hominem invective has no arguments against your arguments and actually deep down agrees with you which leads him to become frustrated and make it very personal.

Since I am being attacked, I am going to repeat the message since I don't back down from intimidation: on average, gay men are very significantly less masculine than straight men evident in their mannerisms, voice, preferences, tastes, and career choices. Everyone in the whole World can see that and that is why the stereotype of the gay male is that of an effeminate man. A stereotype doesen't exist as is for no reason: every sterotype arises because there is some truth to it. For instance, the reason why there is the stereotype that men who work in Silicon Valley tend to be nerdy is because lots of men who work in Silicon Valley are nerdy. Likewise....the stereotype that gay men are effeminate exists because gay men tend to be effeminate.

Not a hissy fit at all. I very calmly expressed just as factual an idea as the crap you're spewing.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Lord Booticus]

Yes, the only difference between straight and gay men is that the latter like dick. That's right: gay men are straight guys who like dick. Funny that we don't see the same numbers of straight men at Gwen Stefani or Lady Gaga concerts as gay men, even though gay men are only 2% of the male population so there should be 50 times more straight men there than gay men if they had an equivalent amount of interest. Funny how pretty much all men attending fashion shows are gay even though there are 50 times more straight men than gay men. Just funny since according to you there are no differences between straight and gay men except sexual preference.

You attribute a higher homosexual following of Lady Gaga to homosexuals being more feminine, however have you ever thought that it was just a visual higher support? All your example suggests is that homosexual people are more likely to go to a Lady Gaga concert, however it cannot tell the number of straight guys who listen to Lady Gaga, but don't go to her concerts.

Which brings up the point of; Are gay people more feminine or just alloud to express a feminine side society has deemed heterosexual men banned from showing? Being gay means a different set of rules and a different culture, gay guys do not have to impress women, nor straight males. This means the pressures to par-take in male orientated activities are not there, leaving them to seek out a wider range of activities without worrying about being judged or reducing there chances of getting a girlfriend. The 'metrosexual' craze has shown us that when straight males are given the chance to break out of the male mold there are quite a few takers.

People often use the term "acting straight" but have we ever thought about whether or not gay guys are "acting gay". In the gay community there are certain things that are expected another gay person to be and certain activities people within the community feels they should particpate in, meaning a gay guy wanting into the community will have to conform to these expectations in order to be accepted, potentially forces themselves to become camper, get a fag hag, be more promiscuous ect.

You suggest that gay people part take in there activities and the way they are because they're gay and you'd never catch a straight guy acting in similiar fashion, but chances are more straight guys would participate in these activities if their masculine society would allow. Its not necasserily genetics that are in action, just good old fashioned conforming to social norms, straight guys forcing themselves to forgo anything that their friends would deem "girly" or "sissy" so they can better fit into the fold.