What is a 'gay man?', an article I'm writing

[altlover85]

You know what? I never had a problem with you or your posts, but I've come to the conclusion that you and a few others here are no different than Clint McCance, Dharun Ravi, and all the bullies who have sent so many young people to an early, self-imposed grave.

When I was young I did some bullying and also got bullied. I'm no Dharun Ravi.

It's comments and opinions and beliefs such as your which drive younger, terrified, confused, and impressionable youths to suicide. Death was their only imagined escape from people like you.

Out gay guys tend to be more feminine than straight guys. This is not the case with all gay men. I don't generally make fun of other people and it wasn't my intent to do that by saying that I feel you have a feminine side.

I'm not the one who seems so upset at the idea that some people might think I'm feminine because I like The Golden Girls. I also like Sex and The City, and America's Next Top Model. And I'm gay.

I pity you and wish you the best in life, and I truly hope nobody treats you the way you've been treating us.

I think your pity is misplaced. I don't think I've treated any of you horribly. I have simply said things some of you didn't want to hear.

Thanks for wishing me the best in life. I would rather it wasn't couched with insults though.

Goodbye, and have a nice day.

Goodbye.

 

[fetaby]

I'm not the one who seems so upset at the idea that some people might think I'm feminine because I like The Golden Girls. I also like Sex and The City, and America's Next Top Model. And I'm gay.

Now. Take that last statement and have someone assume every choice you make is based on that characteristic.

Yeah, so what if they are right or wrong in their generalizations. It's the act of taking your opinion and applying it as fact over someone else that's obnoxious.

It's juvenile.

 

[altlover85]

EP, I'm sorry. I got sidelined with other posts and then had dinner and a phone call and forgot about your post.

I chose Jackass only for the play on masculine/feminine, since it seems that's where you were headed. But if I gotta choose another sitcom instead of just a funny show, then Malcolm in the Middle will do(only because i'm watching it now).

To me, to "be" is the same thing in projection as to "identify"; to feel a certain way about a character, as if they describe you. I, for instance(going around back to The Golden Girls), like Dorothy's biting sarcasm and wit, and identify with that; I don't see how that's feminine or masculine just because it's coming from a female character(like Maxine on Living Single and Wanda on her show). I like the same traits in male leads too(Chris and Ken Titus, mostly - less so often in Malcolm).

I see your point, but I think the show (TGG) was about dating guys and so if you don't date guys, I don't see the humor ringing quite as true. That's my opinion.

I didn't deny things may be schemed to have an outpouring from either set, i'm just saying that some people don't operate in that way; what's dishonest about watching a show, for the show?

I just don't really think that people do that. I think there has to be something that you identify with on some level about the show that attracts you, at least when talking about scripted shows.

 

[fetaby]

I just don't really think that people do that

Yes, because all people act and behave just as you think they should.

Preach on....

 

[altlover85]

Now. Take that last statement and have someone assume every choice you make is based on that characteristic.

I never said that or implied it.

Yeah, so what if they are right or wrong in their generalizations. It's the act of taking your opinion and applying it as fact over someone else that's obnoxious.

How many times do I have to say it's my opinion? I've never said it was fact. I said I think he's in denial.

It's juvenile.

Perhaps. I think saying that you don't have a feminine side is bullshit for most people and I think some things (like liking a particular TV show) have gendered connotations. Those are my opinions. But those are the premises which I operate off of on discussions like this.

Yes, because all people act and behave just as you think they should.

Preach on....

I don't think people do things just to do them. I think people have motivations for their actions.

 

[fetaby]

Every choice, some choices, or any choice. The result is the same.

Opinions have no standing when faced with the assertion of another person's reality.

Those are my opinions. But those are the premises which I operate off of on discussions like this.

And if you at no point are willing to believe that your opinions could be wrong?

 

[altlover85]

It's about a hell of a lot more than just dating guys; the surface of the show doesn't even center on that. There's friendship(which IS the surface of the show), love, family, accepting aging, divorce, death, and so many other things.

Maybe you should actually... you know, watch it.

Please. I have watched the show. I've probably seen all the episodes. The main theme was about friendship, but their friendship entailed a lot of things. One of the main aspects of their lives was the fact that they dated and had sex.

Yes. And in the real example I gave, i showed you that it's perfectly logical to have neither a masculine or feminine trait be the reason you're watching the scripted show. You might not think people do that, but i've just showed you that they can, and in my case, usually do. It's not about debasing a so-called feminine/masculine attribute; it's about negating that scale as the reason for being and doing altogether.

Someone could have a non-gendered reason for liking a show. But when someone denies having a masculine side and then writes in "the style of Sophia Petrillo" I find that bullshitty. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.

Every choice, some choices, or any choice. The result is the same.

Can you explain this? What are you referencing exactly?

Opinions have no standing when faced with the assertion of another person's reality.

I don't agree.

And if you at no point are willing to believe that your opinions could be wrong?

I think my opinions could be wrong. I also think you could be wrong. I happen to think the latter more than the former.

Again, it's my opinion, if you or gsdx don't like it, you don't have to listen to it or acknowledge it. However, if you or he do so, I have the right to respond.

I'd be fine with dropping this aspect of the conversation and agreeing to disagree.

 

[fetaby]

Please. I have watched the show. I've probably seen all the episodes. The main theme was about friendship, but their friendship entailed a lot of things. One of the main aspects of their lives was the fact that they dated and had sex.


Someone could have a non-gendered reason for liking a show. But when someone denies having a masculine side and then writes in "the style of Sophia Petrillo" I find that bullshitty. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.

Can you explain this? What are you referencing exactly?

I don't agree.


I think my opinions could be wrong. I also think you could be wrong. I happen to think the latter more than the former.

Again, it's my opinion, if you or gsdx don't like it, you don't have to listen to it or acknowledge it. However, if you or he do so, I have the right to respond.

I'd be fine with dropping this aspect of the conversation and agreeing to disagree.

If you can't see the fact of a person's reality is greater than another's opinion of that person, we have nothing further to discuss. Although I do think it's funny you apply that rule for yourself but no one else gets to.

 

[altlover85]

If you can't see the fact of a person's reality is greater than another's opinion of that person, we have nothing further to discuss. Although I do think it's funny you apply that rule for yourself but no one else gets to.

I can't always take everyone's reality at face value.

They can apply the rule to me and I can choose not to agree with them like I have been.

 

[Lube]

I can't always take everyone's reality at face value.

quoted for truth.

Sometimes you can smell bullshit a thousand miles away.

People can claim one thing all they want; sometimes their other comments give them away, though.



*waits for you-don't-know-me-better-than-myself wail*

 

[gsdx]

But when someone denies having a masculine side and then writes in "the style of Sophia Petrillo" I find that bullshitty. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.

Again, it's my opinion, if you or gsdx don't like it, you don't have to listen to it or acknowledge it.

I am no longer part of this discussion. Please stop bringing me back into it.

Thank you.

 

[Lord Booticus]

I can't always take everyone's reality at face value.

They can apply the rule to me and I can choose not to agree with them like I have been.

quoted for truth.

Sometimes you can smell bullshit a thousand miles away.

People can claim one thing all they want; sometimes their other comments give them away, though.



*waits for you-don't-know-me-better-than-myself wail*

Why not take people at face value? What makes it so you think you do know someone better than themselves?

 

[Lube]

Why not take people at face value? What makes it so you think you do know someone better than themselves?

Good luck getting through life when every guy tells you he's faithful, every resume says the person is perfect, every child says "I didn't do it!", every proposal says it's the cheapest and highest quality, every religion says it's the one true way, every Internet ad says you'll make $70/hr at home, every coworker says they'll get their part done on time, every student says he didn't cheat, every mechanic says he'll fix your car right.

Sometimes people intentionally lie, sometimes people don't even realize they're lying to themselves.

Good luck being an adult when you take everyone at face value.

 

[Lube]

... when every faceless Internet profile says he's handsome, and 10 inches long, and a total top, and masculine, and doesn't have feminine qualities....

Yeah, you learn to be discerning and cut through the bullshit pretty damn quickly.

 

[gsdx]

People can claim one thing all they want; sometimes their other comments give them away, though.



*waits for you-don't-know-me-better-than-myself wail*

Sometimes people intentionally lie, sometimes people don't even realize they're lying to themselves.

Please stop these baiting tactics. I am no longer a part of this discussion and I refuse to play your infantile games.

 

[fetaby]

Good luck being an adult when you take everyone at face value.

Hmmmm, someone must have torn out that page of my manual that says in order to be an adult you must be a cynical, stereotypical, misogynistic, untrusting bigot.

*continues to arrange burger bun in anticipation of juicy, juicy horse burger*

 

[altlover85]

I am no longer part of this discussion. Please stop bringing me back into it.

Thank you.

You were part of the point I was trying to make at the time when posting to Elegant-Perverse.

^ Yeah and don't forget... Innocent until proven guilty.

Some are just more willing to give people the benefit of the doubt up front. However, even the most astute can be taken in by the professional con person.

You make a good point.

Didn't it take you forty plus years to cut through your own bullshit? That's not as quick as you think.

I know, right.

Nice guys.

Please stop these baiting tactics. I am no longer a part of this discussion and I refuse to play your infantile games.

You were part of the discussion. It's not bating. It's not all about you. Why do you even bother to check this thread (or for that matter respond to it) anymore if you are done with the discussion?

 

[Lord Booticus]

Good luck getting through life when every guy tells you he's faithful, every resume says the person is perfect, every child says "I didn't do it!", every proposal says it's the cheapest and highest quality, every religion says it's the one true way, every Internet ad says you'll make $70/hr at home, every coworker says they'll get their part done on time, every student says he didn't cheat, every mechanic says he'll fix your car right.

Sometimes people intentionally lie, sometimes people don't even realize they're lying to themselves.

Good luck being an adult when you take everyone at face value.

Well thats a very cynical view of why not to take people at there word. But how about why you feel you are qualified to say that someone is in the closet when they've told you they are not?

 

[altlover85]

Well thats a very cynical view of why not to take people at there word. But how about why you feel you are qualified to say that someone is in the closet when they've told you they are not?

Generally people in the closet deny they are in the closet. Otherwise they wouldn't be in the closet.

 

[clicker]

Lmaoooo, first of all, I don't need yours or anybody else's permission to do anything. Secondly, what I am or not is irrelevant. The fact is that, on average, gay men are less masculine than straight men. It doesen't make gay men inferior to straight men in any way.

But you seem to infer that they are inferior by stressing the point and that masculinity is desirable. I consider myself down the middle. Yet I do consider effeminacy unattractive and quite a turn off. But then again, I hate machismo, too. I find both machismo and effeminacy to be exaggerated opposites of masculinity.