Re: **: ***** ***v***g*
But I still will argue that the basic kernel of the point, that white people (we’re going to have to start qualifying these terms at some point, too much room for misunderstanding), have enjoyed systemic privileged status in the U.S. is a solid proposition to make.
I'm not arguing that, prior to the civil rights movement, whites did enjoy some advantages that blacks did (better prospects for jobs, not having to deal with segregation, etc.). However, I would debate that, as blacks gained rights and affluence the "white privilege" eroded. Although I agree that it hasn't eroded away completely, I would debate to what degree it's actually a left-over from pre-civil rights days, and a creation of blacks segregating themselves.
Note that I'm not saying that they are separate; I'm just wondering how much of it is new. Based off how successful blacks have become, and that rappers seem to enjoy the same benefits ascribed to "white privilege", I'm not really sure about how much "white privilege" really exists that isn't kept up by the black community, either on a conscious or subconscious level so just they have something fight against.
That said, and I tried to say this earlier – sorry I wasn’t clear – that I think that snap decisions based on whatever are endemic in any group. I also think – said this too, that all three, Clinton, Obama, and Palin, have been hit with this, different assumptions because of different stereotypes, but the same none the less.
Keep in mind that so have the white guys. Any assumption based on any stereotype should be questioned.
Let her be slammed, if she can’t run with the big dogs………
Definitely. But please note that she is being slammed, and not ignore that.
I practice what I preach, no special treatment for Palin because she’s a woman; though I do find it funny that the Republican Party is now making exactly the same arguments they called whining when Hillary made them.
Yeah, I'm definitely amused by that as well. I'm hoping that it will cost them votes in November...
Well, affirmative action wasn’t designed to be fair, because the system it was designed to compensate for wasn’t fair either, accountability all round on that one. I agree with the general point on “victimization,” but that term has also been redefined by politicians to suit their own purposes, so unless we are both operating from the same premise, we’re going to misunderstand each other.
Definitely. Put another way then: I don't mind affirmative action as long as it's used as intended (to elevate a given section of the population to the level of the rest of the population). I do have a problem with it when it's used as an excuse to stay at that level or bring others down to that level. One of the issues we had with that in California was that companies would be created specifically to take advantage of the rules re: government contracts that needed to go to minority groups; even though the companies would be of inferior service, the government was nonetheless required to at least consider them, especially when they were one of the few companies in their field. Suffice to say, those companies died horribly when the rules changed.
Yeah, that’s not my experience with the black people I know, who don’t seem to have a problem with education or black advancement at all. Is it possible, I guess, I’m not an expert on the black community.
I'm just pointing out that there were groups that were against education, either because they thought that it was something of The Man, or because they thought The Man was purposely suprressing black people, so why bother? I have a lot of black friends that believe that education is power, but they are also the ones that pointed out the problem to me.
This is a discussion of white privilege, which while it impacts the black community isn’t about the black community. If you want to discuss the black community and what it does to itself, we can certainly do that, but it’s not this discussion.
I think that it's important to look at all aspects of the issue, so I think that it's important to look at whether or not it's real or just a perception, and thus valid to explore aspects of the black community, and that history, in order to discuss the validity of white privilege in today's world. For what it's worth...
Yeah, well that is also a whole sub discussion itself, suffice it to say for now, that there were institutional bars in place keeping black people from getting degrees, etc…
Definitely. But those bars have been removed, if by law if nothing else. Should someone use those bars to keep blacks from getting degrees today, that person or institution would nailed, both legally and reputation-wise, resulting in a lot of problems for that person or institution. But, at the same time, I think it's necessary to recognize that there are blocks within the black community itself that block forward progress, especially as those blocks are more relevant.
Sorry but in discussing white people’s racism there’s no need to go into black people’s failings, that’s a different subject. Just because bob stole an apple doesn’t mean Suzy’s less guilty for the gum she swiped. They are separate crimes.
I'm not interested in the failings of anyone. I am interested that the civil rights movement seems to be at an interesting crossroads, in that in just about every group it seems that you have almost equal parts people that are still the old days, and those that are embracing the new ones...Just as you have those in the black community blaming institutionalized racism on why they can't get ahead, you have those running their own businesses. Just though that it was interesting...
I would be more accommodating on this point perhaps, but I’ve been sidetracked down that track to many times before. Like I said if you want to discuss the black community we can, but right now we’re talking about the white one.
I don't think you can discuss something that affects a community without discussing that community. It's an interesting concept, however...
Well, I’m sorry your white people had no priviedge. (Grin). Seriously, No argument.
Just pointing out that you don't need to be black to have experienced some form of discrimination. Something that tends to be forgotten...
We’re back to that qualifying terms thing, I’m quite sure the racists I know wouldn’t consider Jewish people “white.” Sure, there are poor white people with no power. That doesn’t really change the point does it.
Actually, it does. If we are debating whether or not privilege based on skin color matters, then finding a counter-example would demonstrate that the privilege may not be as actual as we would think. That is. of white people are just suffering just as black people do, is white privilege necessarily a reality? Or at least, is it as bad as it may have once been...?
Usually the poor white people are the most bigoted about these things precisely because they think that some other ethnicity is getting what they think is rightfully theirs.
However, there is some validity to that perspective. If slavery had not been abolished, then white and black workers would not have had to compete so bitterly for the same jobs in the Reconstructionist South. For every leap forward that we've made in the civil rights movement, someone has had to suffer, and those people have usually been the poor white folks. Even if that eventually leads to acceptance,you do need to deal with the issue that the poor people are going to feel it when things change...
Sorry, but the more I explore it, the less white privilege I see, and the more false things I see that are impeding racial harmony...weird that...
RG
