Why are JUBbers so prejudiced against the religious/religion in general?

[borg69unimatrix]

The problem is that you're wrong. Religious faith led the fight against slavery, established free hospitals, pretty much invented universities, and one heck of a lot more. The most determined and unrelenting providers of aid to people in need in the world are religious. And society is still far from the ethics of the New Testament.

Considering how many third world countries were forced into Catholicism and told birth control was bad just to fill collection plates I think they've done more harm than good.

 

[Kulindahr]

Understood. I neither agree nor disagree. I was just disgusted by the vehemence in response. I don't know the history of Kuli's posts and overall i enjoy his contributions.

I find Dawkins to be opportunistic and intellectually disingenuous. I'm all for science but I still regret never getting a refund for his books that I purchased.

You're too kind to him; he's also intellectually dishonest.

I'm one of the biggest advocates of science on this board, but also of extending the same sound scholarship to everything. Too many of the religion-haters here have so little awareness of what it is they're dissing that it's just as much an insult to human intelligence as the young-earth morons' efforts.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Did I specifically call every religious person an asshole? No. I said "religion" was the problem, not religious people. Don't insult people's intelligence by pretending we're biased against everyone and not just the assholes of the group. Just don't.

Which is the definition of generalizing.

 

[Kulindahr]

How fucking dare you.

Have you ever been victimized by the bullshit religion has done to us? Have you had to grow up in a fiercely religious environment that repressed the shit out of you? In case you didn't realize, we are at war with religion. They've already declared one on us just all because some higher-up idiots arbitrarily point to one verse in a book of tens of thousands of verses written eons ago. First of all, nobody dumb enough to fall for that shit will ever be worthy of my respect (kindly explain to me why they should be). And you want to go around throwing accusations of "generalizing" like you got some kind of moral high ground. Your little bullshit accusation here does not contribute to the discussion. It does not look at the root of the problem here. In fact, it only takes our eyes away from the problem of prejudiced, racist, sexist assholes who would rather burn the whole fucking world down than see one harmless couple of gays get married. I am so sick of hearing this "generalization" bullshit. You are a grown-ass adult and should know we don't mean to call EVERYBODY assholes. Did I specifically call every religious person an asshole? No. I said "religion" was the problem, not religious people. Don't insult people's intelligence by pretending we're biased against everyone and not just the assholes of the group. Just don't.

"They".

You fuel the fire -- you're part of the problem. You claim you're not generalizing, right in the middle of... generalizing.

You know what amazed me at my first PRIDE parade? Float after float from Christian churches, all celebrating gay rights!

Religion is not the problem. You insult millions of people who have fought for gay (and a lot of other) rights by saying that. It's a bigoted generalization that is no different from the hate from the ones you claim to target while smearing everyone.

 

[Kulindahr]

Considering how many third world countries were forced into Catholicism and told birth control was bad just to fill collection plates I think they've done more harm than good.

It's a tough one to measure. But the claim was that religion has done nothing good -- and that's pure bullshit.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't mind them for the most part either because I typically try to understand the poor relationship between gays and the religious (or at least those that choose to separate themselves from the other), but I think that if we had a thread titled "Funny anti-white Internet pics" or "Funny anti-black Internet pics" then it might not last as long. Because the religious here are possibly in the minority then the majority are fine to mock them.

Ouch -- yeah. Thanks for changing my perspective.

I don't think some gays have learned a thing from being ostracized themselves.

I agree. I have been persecuted by gays in almost as vile a manner as by any religious folks.

 

[brokegayguy]

Which is the definition of generalizing.

Call me when SOME (some, not all, just so you don't cry about me generalizing) religious folks stop pointing to a verse in some old book to justify saying "faggot" to me repeatedly.

You know what amazed me at my first PRIDE parade? Float after float from Christian churches, all celebrating gay rights!

Religion is not the problem. You insult millions of people who have fought for gay (and a lot of other) rights by saying that. It's a bigoted generalization that is no different from the hate from the ones you claim to target while smearing everyone.

Oh you saw some floats at a parade, that settles this.

If you accuse me of generalizing one more time, I'm gonna report you because A - I'm not, B - that's a personal attack, and C - I'm simply trying to point out that we don't like religion because it has been a major obstruction to the advancement of the gay community. This is a cold, hard, undeniable fact. Many here have the bruises and cuts to prove it.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Call me when SOME (some, not all, just so you don't cry about me generalizing) religious folks stop pointing to a verse in some old book to justify saying "faggot" to me repeatedly.

I don't understand. You hate RELIGION because of what some individuals do?
Because if that is the case, then you are generalizing.

 

[ChickenGuy]

I should also add, on a separate point, that I've always found it odd that on a forum where so much (whether you think it's valid on not) criticism of Christianity and Christians is done, that so many here refuse to criticise Islam or Muslims.

Some of them are THE most violently disgusting homophobic murderers on the planet and responsible for routine hanging and executing of gay men and boys, yet in comparison, I hear absolutely NO outrage about this on a regular basis as there should be.

I don't understand why, if it's OK to go after Christian beliefs, why it's deemed so not OK to go after Islamic ones, when they are about 1000 times worse in every way. Just because it's not the majority or state religion in most of the countries JUBbers are from (N America, Europe, Aus/NZ) DOESN'T mean it should be ignored and excused which is patently what the media (and I have to say, in particular the far-left outlets) do, especially in America.

But then I suspect the reason is very simple and pithy:

In America, the foremost number of visible extremists are Christian.
In Europe, the foremost number of visible extremists are Muslim.

 

[brokegayguy]

I don't understand. You hate RELIGION because of what some individuals do?
Because if that is the case, then you are generalizing.

.....Okay now you're just not making sense. So by hating some jerks, that means I hate all?

Just stop dude.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

I should also add, on a separate point, that I've always found it odd that on a forum where so much (whether you think it's valid on not) criticism of Christianity and Christians is done, that so many here refuse to criticise Islam or Muslims.

Some of them are THE most violently disgusting homophobic murderers on the planet and responsible for routine hanging and executing of gay men and boys, yet in comparison, I hear absolutely NO outrage about this on a regular basis as there should be.

I don't understand why, if it's OK to go after Christian beliefs, why it's deemed so not OK to go after Islamic ones, when they are about 1000 times worse in every way. Just because it's not the majority or state religion in most of the countries JUBbers are from (N America, Europe, Aus/NZ) DOESN'T mean it should be ignored and excused which is patently what the media (and I have to say, in particular the far-left outlets) do, especially in America.

But then I suspect the reason is very simple and pithy:

In America, the foremost number of visible extremists are Christian.
In Europe, the foremost number of visible extremists are Muslim.

I've noticed this as well. For many left-leaning individuals, Christianity is a prime target but any other religion is off limits.
Whereas for many conservatives and Christian fundamentalists, all religions must be defended..... except non-Christian religions.

 

[pat grimshaw]

I should also add, on a separate point, that I've always found it odd that on a forum where so much (whether you think it's valid on not) criticism of Christianity and Christians is done, that so many here refuse to criticise Islam or Muslims.
...In America, the foremost number of visible extremists are Christian.
In Europe, the foremost number of visible extremists are Muslim.

You are 100% right.

America has strong control of its borders and doesn't have the crises that we are seeing. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[bort138]

Beliefs have consequences and many religions encourage the idea that faith (belief without evidence) is a virtue to be held in high regard. I find this to be an incredibly flawed method for determining the nature of the world and reality which we experience. If religion was not a constant impediment to progress in politics and affecting my rights, I would largely be indifferent to religion and never bring it up at all.

 

[Kulindahr]

I honestly think people have to willfully ignore the logic in your posts. I have lived in a repressive environment, one that was driven by religion, and I still understand that not all religious people walk the same path. Just like all gays are not promiscuous and disease-carrying. All blacks don't steal. People here, and elsewhere, generalize based on their experiences. There are countless people that are religious that support gays. There are countless religious people that are gay. Some of the posters here are only thinking in absolutes and we all know that very little in life is actually black and white.

Amen!

I'm surrounded by religious people who would happily arrange a fatal "accident" for me if they thought they could get away with it. Happily, they know that other religious people would call them on it and they would be caught.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I should also add, on a separate point, that I've always found it odd that on a forum where so much (whether you think it's valid on not) criticism of Christianity and Christians is done, that so many here refuse to criticise Islam or Muslims.

Some of them are THE most violently disgusting homophobic murderers on the planet and responsible for routine hanging and executing of gay men and boys, yet in comparison, I hear absolutely NO outrage about this on a regular basis as there should be.

I don't understand why, if it's OK to go after Christian beliefs, why it's deemed so not OK to go after Islamic ones, when they are about 1000 times worse in every way. Just because it's not the majority or state religion in most of the countries JUBbers are from (N America, Europe, Aus/NZ) DOESN'T mean it should be ignored and excused which is patently what the media (and I have to say, in particular the far-left outlets) do, especially in America.

But then I suspect the reason is very simple and pithy:

In America, the foremost number of visible extremists are Christian.
In Europe, the foremost number of visible extremists are Muslim.

I don't really think that happens. I think the degree to which Christianity is harped on more than Islam is a result of the fact that few people posting on JUB are in countries where Islam has any substantial influence in their society, and isn't the locus of anti-gay sentiment. I know of no "defender of Islam" around JUB. I also think that some of what you're describing is a reaction to the slant within western societies that "Christianity is good(er), Islam is evil" which exists, including at JUB, even among people who otherwise are no great fans of Christianity.

Speaking for myself as an American citizen, Christian beliefs are an enormous part of the antiprogress movements in our national politics (not failing to recognize a strong Christian presence on the pro-progress side, btw, Kuli) and Islam has absolutely no power in that dynamic here. Things in the U.S. like states proactively "banning Sharia law" when there's no such realistic lobby to worry about in the first place underlines the notion of "even a little Islam is far, far worse than a shit ton of Christianity", the bias I was referring to.

Islam simply has little day to day impact on my life, and people in countries where that is the case spending an inordinate amount of their time fuming at how evil Islam is are frequently just using that as code for ethnocentrism.

Cough. Not that anyone here does that.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Beliefs have consequences and many religions encourage the idea that faith (belief without evidence) is a virtue to be held in high regard. I find this to be an incredibly flawed method for determining the nature of the world and reality which we experience. If religion was not a constant impediment to progress in politics and affecting my rights, I would largely be indifferent to religion and never bring it up at all.

Do you really think that people would not find other ways to hinder your rights if it were not for religion?

Is religion the driving force? Or is it the fear of the "other" and the need for powerful individuals to retain constructs of power that keep groups oppressed?

 

[borg69unimatrix]

You are 100% right.

America has strong control of its borders and doesn't have the crises that we are seeing. Out of sight, out of mind.

"We"? Are there a lot of Muslims in Australia?

I think to a certain degree we expect those 3rd world countries to act barbaric, and expect more civility in first world ones.

 

[pat grimshaw]

....I'm surrounded by religious people who would happily arrange a fatal "accident" for me...

WARNING: People SHOULD NOT LOOK at this video—
https://www.youtube.com/verify_controversy?next_url=/watch?v=EH2sFfdWf2k

or Google these words—
"Muslim apostate to Christianity beheaded in Tunisia for leaving Islam - Arab Spring"

 

[Kulindahr]

Call me when SOME (some, not all, just so you don't cry about me generalizing) religious folks stop pointing to a verse in some old book to justify saying "faggot" to me repeatedly.

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/threads/422280-Gay-Marriage-ban-violates-Freedom-of-Religion

Oh you saw some floats at a parade, that settles this.

Okay, basic logic:

You maintained that "religion is the problem", i.e. that religion persecutes gays, etc.

But at a gay PRIDE parade, there was an abundance of floats from religious groups in support of gay rights. And that stands as an example, because you'll find that there are such floats at just about every single PRIDE parade.

Ergo, it does in fact "settle this": it shows that religion actually moves people to support gays.

If you accuse me of generalizing one more time, I'm gonna report you because A - I'm not, B - that's a personal attack, and C - I'm simply trying to point out that we don't like religion because it has been a major obstruction to the advancement of the gay community. This is a cold, hard, undeniable fact. Many here have the bruises and cuts to prove it.

1. When you say "religion is the problem", that's a generalization.
2. Pointing out your logical failures is no a personal attack.
3. You again generalize by condemning religion when it has also been a big support of the gay community.

Some religious groups, mostly who don't actually know how to read pieces of literature, have been a pain. But more have been a help. It's just that the pains are also loudmouthed assholes who get attention because, well, they're not just loudmouthed assholes but ignorant loudmouthed assholes, and ignorant loudmouthed assholes always make for a good spectacle.

And those I.L.A.s definitely prompt a reaction. But the reaction, which is addressed by this thread, tends to generalize and become hatred of all religion and thus all religious people. So many, even most JUBbers who are believers keep their heads down, because the haters are being the very same thing gays have had to put up with for so long: bigots, even I.L.A.s.

 

[pat grimshaw]

"We"? Are there a lot of Muslims in Australia? ...

Yes there are.

I live two streets away from a mosque. One of the worshippers has a car number plate JIH4D.

Members of the mosque in the next suburb are conducting an inter-tribal feud with people being shot every fortnight.