Why do people keep complaining about Windows Vista?

[Singularity]

I recently upgraded to Vista and I could not be any happier. Everything works fine except a couple of programs (I hardly use) whose drivers are not yet compatible.

I was told from several people that it sucks, yet I don't see what the problem is.

BTW, my computer has a rating of 4.5

 

[provenlogic]

Probably because you're an average user who doesn't know the real issues behind vista. Issues that severely hamper advanced users.

Please don't take offense, that was just a statement. Vista may be fine for average users, and if it is, that's fine. There are just some major issues that advanced users are taking mass objection too. And there are many background problems that could lead to very very bad problems for a computer running Vista. If you want details, feel free to ask, i'll let someone else go into them .

 

[JohnLB]

One of the problems I've heard about, from several people (I don't use it myself) is that it takes 40% more power to run doing the same things you were doing with XP on the same hardware. What will that cost you in utilities? At least an additional $25 a year depending on your power rate.

How about when most of the country has switched to it? 3 new power plants? Better be prepared for rates to go up to pay for the new plants!

 

[Matt1809]

Please don't take offense, that was just a statement. Vista may be fine for average users, and if it is, that's fine. There are just some major issues that advanced users are taking mass objection too. And there are many background problems that could lead to very very bad problems for a computer running Vista. If you want details, feel free to ask, i'll let someone else go into them

Uh, Im an advanced user, and I have had no issues with it.

We love to constantly modify and upgrade. Vista only allows you two upgrades (e.g., maybe a new video card and a new hard drive). Then, if you want to upgrade another component, you have to go buy another copy of Vista.

For gods sake no you dont. Yes you may have to reactivate, which costs you nothing more then 5 seconds of your time, but you dont have to buy vista again.

It's quite expensive. $400 for the ultimate version? Ouch! I've bought whole computers for less than that!

Uh, most people wont buy ultimate, and will be fine with home premium, the upgrade of which only costs $150, which is far less they you would have paid for all the OSX updates in since xp came out, in fact you would have paid over $500 for those upgrades.

Vista is not like that. Rather than make the kernel inherently resistant to malware attack, for example, Microsoft just uses the old kernel and tacks on additional software modules, which constantly check for intrusions by known malware. But since the malware that is out there is constantly changing, the modules must constantly phone home to find out what new stuff has been discovered from which you need to be protected. The additional programs chew up processor time, and the constant phoning home uses some bandwidth. And the system is sure to miss the very newest bad stuff that hasn't yet been reported to central control at MS. And you know that soon they're going to start charging you for those updates

I am not even going to dignify this with a real response. Where do you come up with this crap? Components constantly phoning home checking for updates? Charging for security fixes?

I hate to break this to you, but sending an XML files to microsoft with your current software versions once a day is hardly stressing.

If Microsoft succeeds in promoting its Vista DRM strategy, the media providers will decide how many times you are permitted to play the music and videos you buy from them, when you may play them, and on what devices. Vista will enforce the decisions made by the sellers against us, the users. Some of us would like the freedom to use what we buy in the ways we choose ourselves.

Microsoft isnt doing anything to you. You choose to buy drm content or not. But some people want to watch HDDVDs and BluRay Disks, and Microsoft built in the technology for those people. If you dont use those formats, the DRM doesnt run and doesnt take up any memory.

One of the problems I've heard about, from several people (I don't use it myself) is that it takes 40% more power to run doing the same things you were doing with XP on the same hardware. What will that cost you in utilities? At least an additional $25 a year depending on your power rate.

I highly doubt this, and besides, you air conditioner in the summer probably uses more power then a computer running any OS uses in a year.

As for why people dont like it, I would say the real problem is they havent used it or dont really know what they are talking about. People keep talking about how its DRM infested, when in reality MS only implemented the software so that next gen dvds would work, the DRM doesnt run if you dont use those types of media, something the Vista Shell Team has confirmed. Not to mention apple will probably add the same technology as they are a member of the BluRay forum.

Also, there is a strong Anti-Microsoft bias, especially on these boards, many people here are Mac users and feel they need to prove how much better their computer is by attacking Vista.

I personally like Vista, but to each their own. Oh, and my rating is 4.0, damn processor.

 

[mike_n_herrin]

...Microsoft isnt doing anything to you. You choose to buy drm content or not. But some people want to watch HDDVDs and BluRay Disks, and Microsoft built in the technology for those people. If you dont use those formats, the DRM doesnt run and doesnt take up any memory...

here is what wikipedia says about DRM in Vista (amoung other criticisms)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista :

Criticism

Main article: Criticism of Windows Vista

Criticisms of Windows Vista include protracted development time, more restrictive licensing terms, the inclusion of a number of technologies aimed at restricting the copying of protected digital media, and the usability of the new User Account Control security technology. Reviewers have also noted similarities between Vista's Aero interface and that of Apple's Aqua interface for the Mac OS X operating system, particularly around the use of transition effects. Moreover, some concerns have been raised about many PCs meeting "Vista Premium Ready" hardware requirements and Vista's pricing.

Licensing and cost
The introduction of additional licensing restrictions has been criticized. Criticism of upgrade licenses pertaining to Windows Vista Starter through Home Premium was expressed by Ars Technica's Ken Fisher, who noted that the new requirement of having a prior operating system already installed was going to cause irritation for users who reinstall Windows on a regular basis.[34] It has been revealed that an Upgrade copy Windows Vista can be installed clean without first installing a previous version of Windows but Windows will refuse to activate, if the user then installs the same copy of Vista a second time it will activate on the reinstall allowing to install an Upgrade of Windows Vista without owning a previous operating system. [35] As with Windows XP, separate rules still apply to OEM versions of Vista installed on new PCs; these are not legally transferrable.[36] The cost of Windows Vista has also been a source of concern and commentary. A majority of users in a poll said that the prices of various Windows Vista editions posted on the Microsoft Canada website in August 2006 make the product too expensive.[37] A BBC News report on the day of Vista's release suggested that, "there may be a backlash from consumers over its pricing plans - with the cost of Vista versions in the US roughly half the price of equivalent versions in the UK."[38]

Digital Rights Management
Another common criticism concerns the integration of new forms of Digital Rights Management into the operating system, specifically the introduction of the Protected Video Path. This architecture is designed such that "premium content" from HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs may mandate that the connections between PC components be encrypted. Devices such as graphic cards must be approved by Microsoft. Depending on what the content demands, the devices may not pass premium content over non-encrypted outputs, or they must artificially degrade the quality of the signal on such outputs or not display it all. There is also a revocation mechanism that allows Microsoft to disable drivers of compromised devices in end-user PCs over the Internet.[39] Peter Gutmann, security researcher and author of the open source cryptlib library, claims that these mechanisms violate fundamental rights of the user (such as fair use), unnecessarily increase the cost of hardware, and make systems less reliable and vulnerable to denial-of-service attacks.[40] Proponents have claimed that Microsoft had no choice but to follow the demands of the movie studios, and that the technology will not actually be enabled until after 2010;[41][42] Microsoft also noted that content protection mechanisms have existed in Windows as far back as Windows Me, and that the new protections will not apply to any existing content (only future contents).[43]

User Account Control
Concerns have been raised about the new User Account Control security technology. While Yankee Group analyst Andrew Jaquith believes that critical security vulnerabilities may be "reduced by as much as 80 percent," he also noted that "while the new security system shows promise, it is far too chatty and annoying".[44] However, this statement was made over half a year before Vista was actually released (even before Beta 2 was released.)

Kernel Patch Protection
The Kernel Patch Protection feature (also known as "Patchguard") on 64-bit versions of Vista that locks down the OS kernel has been criticized by computer security company McAfee who claim that since PatchGuard also prevents third-party security companies from getting inside the OS, they cannot activate crucial security measures in their software to protect the OS from intruders.[45] Microsoft's argument is that this will keep miscreants out of the OS and prevent the incidence of attacks, and it is something for which customers have been asking. Security vendor Kaspersky Lab claims that it is not more difficult in Vista for anti-virus software to work, and that it would not make sense for Microsoft to stop working with security companies because it would make their system more vulnerable to attacks.[46] Sophos adds that Microsoft does not need to open PatchGuard for third party developers, instead, they should use the programming interfaces Microsoft supplies them.[47] Similarly, Eset, the developer of NOD32 antivirus, claims that there is no requirement to access the Windows Vista Kernel and that their software is fully compatible with Microsoft's PatchGuard and the Windows Vista Security Center. It also claimed that similar obstacles were overcome in the 64-bit edition of Windows XP Professional.

Similarity with Mac OS X
Another criticism is a claim by some that Windows Vista emulates specific features in Apple's Mac OS X. Long-time Mac columnist and book author John Rizzo noted in an eWeek article that Vista incorporated features which Mac OS X has had for some time such as fast searching, seen in the "Spotlight" feature on the Mac, Smart Folders functionality already available in the Mac's Finder, and that the icons, terminology and visual appearance mimic those of Mac OS X.[48] Others have come to a similar conclusion that Aero is an imitation of Aqua.[49] In Vista's defense, Paul Thurrott argues that many of the features that have Mac OS X counterparts or similarities (such as Windows Search to Mac OS X's Spotlight) have been in early alpha versions of Vista or demonstrated in prototypes more than a year before Apple included the features in Mac OS X v10.4.[50] Some Vista technologies, such as Windows Desktop Search, were released as free add-ons to Windows XP before their inclusion in shipping versions of Mac OS X.

Hardware Requirements
Some controversy and concerns have arisen over how the increase in hardware specifications required to take advantage of many of Vista's new features may have an impact on both personal and business users.[51][52] While most PCs purchased after 2002 will be able to meet Vista’s minimum “Windows Vista Capable” requirements, many laptops and low-end to midrange desktops with integrated graphics will not be able to meet “Windows Vista Premium Ready” requirements and will therefore not be able to run advanced features such as the Aero Glass interface.[53][54]

 

[Matt1809]

Matt1809 obviously works with Microsoft

Not yet, I'm still in college. But I would kill to work there.

 

[_AJ_]

Time for a revolution!

arghhhhh.....

the penguins are coming

 

[Matt1809]

It's called Windows Live OneCare.

Which isnt even a part of vista. And I ran the beta, it didnt check every time you booted up.

Ummmm......yes, you do. You're only allowed two minor upgrades, but nothing "major", like a motherboard. Microsoft says they will be cracking down on this, and will not allow you to re-register, as you could with XP.

You most certainly do not. My friend just replaced his CPU and GPU with ultimate and only had to reactivate, which MS lets you do for free.

The first is that once you have installed Vista on a machine you can only move it once. If you have an upgrade of your motherboard or anything else that will cause the operating system to think that it is a new computer you have to buy a new copy of Vista.

This is not true, you may have to call to reactivate, but other then that you can change ANY of your components any time you want and as many times as you want. This has been confirmed by Microsoft employees on sites like Channel 9. The ONLY time you cannot upgrade something is you can not upgrade your motherboard, and only the motherboard, on an OEM copy of Vista as OEM copies are tied to the physical computer as part of the EULA.

 

[Matt1809]

Thank you. I appreciate that you agree with my point that security is tacked onto Vista, rather than be integral to the kernel itself, as in all other OSs.

Again, I have no idea what your talking about. No semi-popular os has a Virus Scanner built into the kernel. Now, they may put hooks on the kernel, but they are not integrated. And saying its not a part of vista doesnt mean security was tacked on, Vista's kernal was built upon the 2003 kernel which is extremely secure, and then improved even more. But you dont seem to care about that, and seem more concerned with spreading anti-ms bs.

I have heard that Live OneCare and Windows Defender have had some issues with failing to update definitions properly, on certain computers. You may want to contact MS support if this is a problem for you.

For gods sake, did you read what they wrote?! It says is connects automatically when you are connected to the net, not every time you connect. And as I stated before, I dont use a virus scanner, because you dont need one if you know what your doing.

Interesting that the largest computer software company on Earth requires that the activation be done by telephone

You have to confirm verbally that you are in fact not copying the software, and explain the situation, the alternative is that you dont call and get locket out, but whatever. Besides, people like to talk to humans when they have issues.

And why does Microsoft not want me to upgrade my motherboard (something I do pretty constantly)?

Microsoft isnt telling you what to do. Again this is only with an OEM copy of the software. You are agreeing to those terms, if you dont like them, you can not buy the OS with the system and buy a regular copy.

Does the EULA require me to call MS and get their permission if I want to go to the bathroom?

Could be worse, you could be tied to the GNU which would require you to tell evenyone your going ot the bathroom, describe the event and provide pictures. And if you dont like the eula, dont agree to it.

And why is it you only rail against MS. Let me remind you that unlike Vista, you cannot transfer OSX to different computers, you cannot virtualize it, you cannot run it on a non-apple computer. Thats restrictive, Microsoft is simply attempting to reduce piracy.

 

[me12121]

It's called Windows Live OneCare. It phones home to update definitions every time you boot up. And it costs just $49.95 annually. But you can get it from Amazon.com for just $37.49. http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Windows-OneCare-Online-Subscription/dp/B000FA36WY

That's called an antivirus. You've always had to pay for a commercial antivirus. Or just get AVG.

Ummmm......yes, you do. You're only allowed two minor upgrades, but nothing "major", like a motherboard. Microsoft says they will be cracking down on this, and will not allow you to re-register, as you could with XP.

That's with OEM versions. Retail versions can be moved from PC to PC as much as you want.

 

[davy]

You're all missing something very obvious - Microsoft is a business, it's out to make money, it's not a charity. There are many companies out there who have provided a service to a certain community and who have withdrawn it. Microsoft can do whatever it likes and owes us nothing really. It knows that it has such a huge customer base that it can take a hit from guys like us. Also, MS has been expanding its business interests outside of home users for years now.

no business exists in a vacuum. every action a business takes carries an implied responsibility to everyone else. that's why we have things like pollution laws to keep large companies from doing whatever they wanted.

since a staggering majority of computer users are using windows, microsoft has the same responsibility to the public as someone like general motors has a responsibility for making sure its cars uses the same tires that ford drivers use.

"the use of transition effects" that argument has been going on for ages and there is some evidence to show that Apple has also copied from others including MS. Many distros of Linux also have transition effects but no-one is complaining about them - why?

because many to most of those transition effects efforts predate mac osx.

"Licensing and cost" as I said above - they ain't a charity. It's their product to do with as they please. If they want to tell people that they have to fly to Seattle to pick up an activation code in person they could. You can use the upgrade version of Ultimate to do a full/new install for just $150. There are plenty of guys on this forum from the US who would gladly mail over a copy of Vista to us guys on the other side of the Atlantic.

JUST $150???!!!! i've been a starving college student for longer than i'de like to admit and $150 would keep me in groceries for almost a month.

and even with a copy of vista, there still isn't any way to activate it. atleast not yet; but even then, i can't wait for someone to figure it out because i've got papers to write... now.

"Digital Rights Management" again this issue has been going on for ages. DRM doesn't affect you until you use media that is DRM protected. MS had to implement DRM to allow Vista run PCs to show this content - they had no choice - otherwise no Vista PC would be able to play this content. Imagine how we'd be screaming if we couldn't play any HD or BluRay DVDs!! Apple and Linux will also have to enable it if they want to play that content. Anyhow both formats have already been cracked.

nearly all linux distributions only use free and open software... which means that stuff that is a jealously guarded secret (like DRM style encryption) most likely wouldn't be included

"Hardware Requirements" there are many applications out there and games that won't run on a lot of mid-range PCs and laptops but you don't hear people screaming about it. I bought a PC game for a friend's kid who had a sooper dooper PC and the game wouldn't play because the graphics card wasn't straight off the assembly line. Vista Ultimate with the Aero interface worked just fine on my laptop and seemed slightly faster than XP.

that's because people accept the idea that new software means new machines. if people demanded that new software become more efficient ALONG with being more powerful, we would all be in a better boat.

And provenlogic - Vista actually gives you a lot more control over the OS than ever before. I wrote about this on another thread. I was stunned at the advanced power settings for instance. There are already tweaking tools available as well.

given that hardware manufacturers usually only make windows driver for their hardware, better control is necessary. if we can convince microsoft to stop bullying hardware manufacturers, other operating systems, like linux, could also give its users a lot more control.

As for reactivation and upgrades - we went through all this apocalyptic stuff with XP and it amounted to nothing. Histrionics get us nowhere - technically a new MoBo is a new PC and anyhow I revert to my original point - it's MS's product and they can do whatever they want with it (within legal constraints) and we don't have to buy into it.

see first rebuttal

 

[thermodynamics]

Sounds like we're into head-biting-off territory. My own two cents are that the vast majority of folks would be perfectly happy with XP for a long time, probably even Win2K. Mac vs Win...well, that's an ongoing debate.

I just bought another ThinkPad. Why didn't I buy an Apple? Three reasons: 1-Apple's laptops do not have TrackPoints (or their equivalent). 2-MATLAB is not available for OSX. 3-Pro|Engineer is not available for OSX. I use these programs regularly, and booting into Windows doesn't really solve anything.

I consider myself an advanced user, and I rarely have issues with XP. When I do, it's because of another software manufacturer, not Microsoft.

I've ordered the free Vista upgrade (comes with computers bought in the last few months), and at some point, I'll try it out.

For college students, your college/university probably has a program where either the software is free or at a substantially reduced cost. Check it out. Here at the U of MN, we pay only for the cost of the discs.

 

[davy]

I never said MS exists in a vacuum. in fact I pointed out that it had increased it's market reach outside of users like us and that this gives it more scope and makes it less vulnerable - a very shrewd business decision. As for pollution - you obviously don't keep up with current affairs - big business has been flouting pollution laws for a long time now and has found ways around many of them including (especially in the US) making sure they have their people in government to look out for them. GM has no responsibility to make sure anyone uses any certain kind of tyre - I can buy a new car tomorrow and take off the tyres and put on anything I want and I am responsible not GM.

tell that to firestone back in the late 1990's.

earlier, you said:

Microsoft can do whatever it likes and owes us nothing really.

and i responded:

every action a business takes carries an implied responsibility to everyone else.

which means microsoft cannot do everything they want. and yes, big business do manage to get around pollution laws, but the fact that they exist support my claim that they're not allowed to (atleast not on paper)

GM has a responsibility at the point of sale to put tyres on their cars that aren't fatally flawed so as to cause the deaths of people and that's it. There are numerous flaws in many products that have become acceptable (whether or not that should be is an entirely different debate) and there isn't nearly half as much heat generated by the public. MS simply can never do right by a lot of people no matter how hard they try and how well they do.

i seriously doubt that they try.

you said

Many distros of Linux also have transition effects but no-one is complaining about them - why?

i replied

because many to most of those transition effects efforts predate mac osx.

if any linux project creates a transition effect before windows or mac creates one, there isn't any way that that linux project could have copied it from anyone.

So you're admitting you want to use Vista?? But Vista doesn't come with Office?? If you want to write your papers use Wordpad or OpenOffice?

i don't want to use vista, but i don't have much of a choice.

I'm a student too - I've got Vista and XP running - Vista is cracked - it was done within a few days of it's release. I've also got Office 2007 (corporate ed).

i don't doubt it was cracked, but wouldn't it be nicer if we didn't have to bother?

if an enormous majority of this planet cannot afford to spend $150 on an operating system. there is no way at all that this majority can afford a few hundred dollar for a whole new system just to run it.

Help yourself Davy and don't blame MS or a hacker community for not having your papers written.

the only blame falls on microsoft's greedy little hands.

And this is a good thing because?

not including microsoft's or hollywood's version of DRM is a good thing because it allows alternatives to be used an explored by the people, ensuring that no one has a stranglehold over anything.

Anyway that's just repeating what I've said.

Anyhooo: Linux founder opens door to DRM (2003)

... and yes, DRM lock as been broken through. thanks entirely withheld from microsoft.

No - you'd be in a bigger (hdd) more powerful boat that has a bigger engine (cpu) and consumes more gas (ram) but which would offer you more facilities and safety (Vista) than a dingy (9x).

But people don't demand that new software becomes more efficient - they demand that it do old things better and that there should be new things in it - which in turn adds new complexity which in turn creates more bulk and more opportunity for problems - it's a basic law of the universe (almost) that the more complex something is the more resources it will consume and the more probable it will have flaws and/or fail. Your argument is logically flawed and your use of all caps ALONG highlights where it is flawed.

not demanding expecting along with increasingly powerful is part of the problem. if both were just as important to the people, there wouldn't be as great a need for the rate at which machines become so much more powerful.

This argument makes no sense. If I run a business that makes a product that suits 90% of the market it is not good business sense to make a product for 5% of another market, 3% for another market and 2% for another. You have to think like a business person Davy not like a user of the product - it doesn't seem fair but that's life. It's the being 'all things to all men' philosophy has has made many businesses fail (though it has worked in a few very small select areas) - you simply can't do it in some cases and it makes no business/financial sense on many other cases.

sure it does.

these hardware manufacturers don't need to create drivers for their hardware since there are already teams of open source people who have already dedicated their free time to creating their own drivers and sharing them with the world.

the only thing these manufacturers have to do is release the documentation (like hardware addresses) to allow these open source creators to create the drivers themselves.

that means that, not only do these hardware manufacturers NOT have to create additional drivers, but they don't even have to support them and... not only that... they'll be increasing their customer base and, at the same time, it will cost them absolutely nothing.

but these hardware manufacturers don't share their documentation because of intimidation tactics from microsoft.

See the first debunking of that first 'rebuttal'.

see reasoning for the rebuttal

I did make a point of saying "within legal constraints" also - the bottom line is that MS could say piracy is such a serious issue that Vista will need to be activated every six months and you have to do it by video link and provide your passport details and your address - whatever they want. At this point I'd like to point out that MS didn't invent the idea of product activation and they're by no means the only company that uses it - Photoshop (along with almost all other Adobe products), Paint Shop Pro, Alcohol 120% etc.

true dat

 

[_AJ_]

the more i see about vista the more i think that it is just like ME and vienna will be like XP i mean vienna and vista started development at the same time they were going to tack vienna's interface to vista but decided to wait for the new os

i need a new pc so ill probably end up with vista soon anyway and no i am not switching to linix because alot of the programs i need are only for pc or mac and mac's are out of my budget for a decent one so once i get some real hands on time with it ill tell you what i think

but then again why bother trexx doesn't care about how an os is but how much he can bitch about it

 

[trawler69]

I can't complain about Vista as I have decided not to try it, based on my experiences of windows from version 3.1 up to XP. It was an experience and it taught me a lot about computers. I have fought viruses, trojans and malware and won, but it was hard work. I now have a mac and my old pc but I rarely turn the pc on except to transfer data. I don't have to worry about viruses and malware, it just isn't an issue. The computer just functions as the tool it is meant to be. I am not a gamer, just a gay man, but I can understand the frustrations of those who want to be both. At least now you can do it as the new macs can run osx and xp side by side or in dual boot formation now they use the intel core 2 duo chip.

I don't look back, I look forward now.

 

[_AJ_]

When bad people do evil things to stuff that I care about, you're going to hear me complain. So should you.

well have fun not playing blu-ray and HD-DVD content then

 

[Matt1809]

no Operating System whatsoever outside of Windows even has a virus/malware scanner. This is the point. Windows is the only OS in common use which requires scanning the OS for viruses, because it is the only OS in which the kernel cannot be secured from malware.

Apple had a McAfee created anti-virus product that was part of .Mac for some times. And the Vista Kernal is secure, but most virues/malware dont attack the kernel but he higher level systems. A virus doesnt need to break the kernel to delete/infect files, especially if the user allows that program to be run.

a now famous e-mail to Gates and Ballmer from January 2004, Allchin said that if he were not working at Microsoft, he would buy a Mac! - This from the director of Vista development and the co-president of Microsoft at the time.

Funny how this happened around the same time they restarted work on Longhorn/Vista. This is 3 years old, perhaps if he said it today it would be more relavent, but at the time, Vista was experiancing significant problems on the XP codebase, which is why it was moved to the 2003 code.

When bad people do evil things to stuff that I care about, you're going to hear me complain. So should you.

Bad people? Evil Things? Please, they make software, not bombs. RMS is worse then Microsoft, at least they are flexable, ironically his view of "free" software borders on fascism, gradually excluding different software models each GPL version.

 

[BrandonSBCA]

 

[BrandonSBCA]

But bits of other OSes stop working as well Brandon. There is a thread on this forum about iTunes not working properly on OSX - the fix was to check and fix all the permissions on the hard drive - I've never had to fix the permissions on my hard drive and rarely have to do a chkdsk. IE7 not working proves nothing - it could've been bad coding on a web site - probably too much porn on your part

I was viewing a page with Java. Also my Dazzle DVD Recorder device doesn't even work.

 

[trawler69]

As a new Mac user and a convert, I have to say that it does crash, but when it does there are no casualties, 24 seconds later it has rebooted and I am back where I left off. When the pc crashed, as it did on a fairly regular basis, it was about 4 minutes until it got back to where it was, often with no small amount of user intervention. Just an observation.