Why do so many Catholics...

[Kulindahr]

Any power structure attracts people who want to abuse power -- just look at bodies through history calling themselves "Senate".
As long as humans need organized institutional structures, there will be power structures, whether religious or other ideology, government, or whatever.
We're stuck with it -- but I don't see why in the case of religion, it should drive people to atheism.

 

[TaigaStar]

I realized after posting that I wasn't as clear as I would have liked to be.
As I indicated, I do still consider myself a Catholic, despite the history of my faith.
But I was also fortunate to be pretty well-read in history, so I've been able to think of, say, The Inquisition in the framework of historical context. Back to the original poster's question, though, my point is that I think it must be a real challenge for an otherwise devout Catholic if they should suddenly learn all about the Church's more shameful activities all in one fell swoop.

I understand where you're coming from. I think, though, that people that turn away because they don't want to devote in the first place and use their lack of true understanding as a means to justify it.

Any power structure attracts people who want to abuse power -- just look at bodies through history calling themselves "Senate".
As long as humans need organized institutional structures, there will be power structures, whether religious or other ideology, government, or whatever.
We're stuck with it -- but I don't see why in the case of religion, it should drive people to atheism.

Precisely. When a ruling body messes up, we blame the ones in power; when a theological authority messes up, somehow the entire organization is responsible. It's seems rather hypocritical in itself.

 

[fbrand12345]

i haven't through everyone's responses (which isn't an insult to you guys i just don't have the time for it right now) but i think there are a few reasons many Catholics become atheists.

for one, the overall religion, as a system, is very oppressive. I understand that there are ways the church wants to do things, but many times they are rigid and unyielding; this might come from their history or canon, but it paints them poorly in the public eye. a good example of this was when the Vatican wouldn't reverse their anti-birth control stance with regards to passig out condoms in africa even though it would help with the aids epidemic. i could be wrong but i don't think the majority of people in africa are catholic so why would it matter. in theory, they don't believe in the "right" god so they're lost anyway.

another major reason is in regards to the premarital sex problem. my roommates are catholic, and they haven't had sex, but they all have play time with their girlfriends (i.e. oral sex in lieu of intercourse). i'm pretty sure that doesn't cut it, but most of my catholic friends are some sort of sexually active if not having intercourse. many people don't want to be held back by something like a ban against premarital sex.

the biggest problem i see though, is how rigid the religion is. you're not allowed to think for yourself. one of my friends knows a catholic speaker and talking to him makes you want to punch yourself in the face. no matter how well you bring up a question about Catholicism, the Bible, etc, he constantly runs behind the same arguments, even if he's losing. One friend, who tries to pride herself on being understanding or something said something the other day about "not getting transexuals" blah blah and she's said something similar about gays I think. i'm not even sure i'm bi or straight and i wanted to hit her. the catholic speaker guy has a sister who's gay and he's told her that he loves her but she is sinning and blah blah. if she's not catholic why should it matter.

on the flip side of this argument, atheism gets thrown around a lot, and people who self-ID as atheist often aren't, they're just disillusioned. i've had people call me atheist because i'm not Catholic. i'm practicing pagan beliefs right now, cause it works for me and i agree with what it teaches. just because i don't believe in someone's "right" religion does not make me an atheist. my brother is among both of these groups. he's tried pulling the "all the bad things that have happened in my life" lame ass argument as well as saying stupid things about paganism.

lastly, in my opinion, i think it's easier for people to simply ID as atheist, especially if they're no longer practicing Catholics because it saves on a lot of explanation. in today's culture, Catholics/Catholicism are/is the butt of many jokes and the system is flawed, so it's easier to step away from the crossfire than it is to fight the fight.

i apologize for the long windedness and hope this makes a modicum of sense because it's been stream of consciousness and i'm not proofing it.

hit me with responses, i love debating

 

[eywsoon]

fbrand12345-

You raise some interesting and valid points.

Religion’s oppressive nature could be due to the following:
At the time the belief system and all of its “approved” writings were established, the average member or believer wasn’t as educated as people are today. Their worlds were much smaller and they probably didn’t know of other mythologies which pertained to creation, life and death. Enter the priest as an authoritative figure on such ‘beyond this world” things. Even in this day, there are some who take the attitude and specific world view of the local parish priest as the final word.

Regarding the individual’s ability to think for himself and have a unique and personal experience of the transcendent---this can be a threat to those in church hierarchy. The system itself has no way to bring back (or incorporate) one who has gone beyond what it teaches. Personal experiences of the divine are looked at suspiciously with differences in thought being labeled as blasphemous or heretical.

Lastly, there’s the concept of salvation. I was raised RC and got the feeling that Jesus Christ was the only way to salvation. Don’t get me wrong here—I’m not saying that his role wasn’t to redeem mankind, but I’ve questioned many of the traditionally-held beliefs about him. Historically, the man existed and everything else about him we take as a matter of faith. Was he both man and God? I think so, but so are the rest of us. My belief is that we’re all expressions (at least in potentiality) of this Supreme Being or Source. He became “Christ” in that he was anointed --- and who’s to say that we can’t become “Christs” also?

There are other paths to salvation (from other traditions)---the Buddha comes to mind. What’s wrong with entertaining these?
Much of this deals with the inner work we do, so could it be that true salvation is the work of the individual?

I can see how a very restrictive church could turn people away. When a particular belief system claims to have a monopoly on God, it makes some question whether or not this God really does exist or has been created in order to keep people under control.

That’s my take….

 

[Endlight]

I was raised Catholic and have 12 years of Catholic school education as well. Although I don't attend church on Sundays regularly these days, it's not because I would be atheist. That I am definitely not, my faith in God and his existence is strong. I simply have a problem with the way the Catholic doctrine denounces my being gay, and among other things like female clergy and the celibacy or marriage of clergy. quote]

I am so much like you. I also was raised a Catholic and for various reasons left the Church. But for the 24 years I was away, I never lost faith in God. Somehow in my youth I came to realize that what people and I disliked so much about the Catholic church was caused by humans, mostly men (priests & teachers) in my case. In my primary school period, we were taught every absurd erroneous things I read above. I agree, said teachings turned a lot of members away from the Church, then and today.

As an outdoors person, I love to hike and camp in the woods and mountains. In nature I found I could not refute the existence of a God.... my God. After that long lapse of time I slowly returned to the Catholic Church but started to question everything I read. Lucky me, I now went to a Catholic University run by the Dominican Fathers. I found more priests/monks there, that thought like me. I spend three years studying many of the points stated above, i.e. the Infallibility of the Popes (which only applies when he speaks Ex Cathedra on dogmas, by the way) not on everything he says. I have studied the new Testament in great depth and yes a lot that was written, was written for people 2000 years ago with the knowledge and mentality of that time. For every priest and teacher who told me I would go to Hell if I did not do or believe something, I found teachers who preached how awful those priest and teachers were. For every one who spoke against homosexuality to me in my life, I found teachers who said if the Church had more compassion and understanding of all christians, few priest would have been allowed to hide their sexual conduct behind/inside the Church.

Many who have left the Catholic church did so with good reasons and they are not to be looked on as anything but Human beings. Unless we have experienced physically or mentally what they experienced, we can only speculate on their decision. I also ask who gave us the mantles of judges. Then I shudder every time I hear that "The Church ( Catholic) is a big ship and slow to turn." If it does not it will run aground and be completely destroyed.

My personal attitude is one of believing in God, participating in my congregation but never hesitating is rejecting what I consider to be erroneous doctrine, from people, priests or agnostic. I have learn to love my fellow humans and walk my walk.

I hope that gives you another point of view.

 

[Endlight]

fbrand12345-

You raise some interesting and valid points.

Lastly, there’s the concept of salvation. I was raised RC and got the feeling that Jesus Christ was the only way to salvation. Don’t get me wrong here—I’m not saying that his role wasn’t to redeem mankind, but I’ve questioned many of the traditionally-held beliefs about him. Historically, the man existed and everything else about him we take as a matter of faith. Was he both man and God? I think so, but so are the rest of us. My belief is that we’re all expressions (at least in potentiality) of this Supreme Being or Source. He became “Christ” in that he was anointed --- and who’s to say that we can’t become “Christs” also?

You are so right! I took a one week Theology course that addressed exactly that point. Taught by Dominican Priests at that, (a Catholic priestly order for those non- RC. And by the way, that congregation was responsible for the Inquisition, back when). How far this teaching is from the Fire and Brimstone sermons I heard at 12-15 years of age.

 

[eywsoon]

Hi Endlight-

AMEN to what you say! We all experience God differently and through different components of creation. I suspect that there’s a divine spark in everything that is part of our own worlds---we may or may not be open to it, but it is there.

What’s even more interesting: I have a number of friends who say they don’t believe in God. Some of them claim that we’re all part of some greater energy source, and some believe that everything in this world is random. Do I try to change their belief? No! Respecting what another believes doesn’t mean you have to agree with them; to me, it is an acknowledgement that they are made up of the same cosmic “stuff” that I am.

And ‘ya know what? I tend to see the “God” in these people much more than I do on others who proclaim to be believers. It’s kind of like a silent greeting that happens when I meet these friends---“the God in me salutes the God in you.”

 

[luminum]

It's very hard to see the Church as credible when you're unerring word of God comes from someone who changes every lifetime and can suddenly still be infallible even if he contradicts himself or some previous pope.

 

[Shepherd 2]

I am not a Catholic.
It would be inappropriate for me to comment.
I will listen.
Thanks for speaking out.

No matter where I am in life,
my best partner is an open mind. Peace!

 

[Lucas07]

Religion made me unreligious. If that makes any sense.

 

[Kulindahr]

Religion made me unreligious. If that makes any sense.

Would you mind explaining further?

 

[ryan25yo]

I'm Catholic. I really think it all has to do with the priest of the parish. I used to go to a church that the priest was really conservative in his views. I got tired of it and started going to the other Catholic church in my town. I love it there. The priest is pretty liberal when it comes to some things. Unfortunately he will be leaving for a new assignment. Hopefully the new priest will be great! So, yeah I think changing your ways has to do with what parish and priest you have. I was told by a college professor that I/my age group will see the Catholic Churches in America here leave Roman rule. We will end up like England. I dunno though.

Let's hope not! The Anglican Communion is imploding. Let's face it: there's only one "show" in town and that's the Catholic Church. It shouldn't depend on a particular priest. The teaching of the Church is found, definitively, in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Get a copy and see for yourself what the Church REALLY teaches and why we stay Catholic!

 

[Spensed]

Let's hope not! The Anglican Communion is imploding. Let's face it: there's only one "show" in town and that's the Catholic Church. It shouldn't depend on a particular priest. The teaching of the Church is found, definitively, in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Get a copy and see for yourself what the Church REALLY teaches and why we stay Catholic!

And having a decades long institutionally supported pedophile scandal isn't an implosion. LOL.

I can understand gay Catholics becoming or remaining Catholics for various reason such as using the conscience exception specifically set out in the Cathecism to affect change and not hand over the Church to a crew of homophobic thugs.

However, to repeat, the Catholic Church presently teaches in its Catechism that gay sexual acts:

• are "acts of grave depravity",
• are "instrinsically disordered",
• are "contrary to natural law",
• "do not proceed from genuine affection and sexual complementarity" and
• "under no circumstances can they be approved."

All gay men and women "are called to chastity".

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357

Sure the Church doesn't hate gay folk. It just condems gay sex acts, attacks the authenicity of gay "affection" and denies gay men and women any form of gay sexual expression.

That's like saying that you're not a racist bigot because you don't hate people of a certain race. You just hate the way that people of that race act.

I guess there must be some gay Catholics who really believe that and visit gay porn websites when the flesh is weak. Sin followed by forgiveness and redemption can be such a turn on.

 

[provenlogic]

I became an atheist (and was catholic) because of 12 years of catholic schooling and forced church going. Why does that matter? You ask? Because i realized it was all bullshit designed to coerce you into thinking, acting, and believing in a certain way.

I learned SO MUCH about the Catholic faith in school (we had religion class every day) that i eventually learned how truly ridiculous and full of crap religion is. Nothing i was being taught added up. You'd go to math class or science class and get facts and information; you'd go to religion class and get stories, supposition, and hearsay that didn't make sense, always contradicted itself, and was often flat out ridiculous and asinine, completely lacking reason and intelligence.

So i learned the best kept secret about the Catholic Faith, and really, all religion.

*WHISPERS*, "It's the biggest scam in the history of mankind."

 

[thewiz]

I was born and raised Roman Catholic; left the church for about 10 years and experienced a number of different religions and practices. I returned to the Catholic Church about three years before I decided to come out and have remained there the past 2 1/2 years.

1. My first thought is that for most people they were like me; they were born into a Catholic family, baptised, and then taken to church. We were expected, kind of like osmosis, to absorb the faith. I think of the years that I was growing up and we went from a latin mass that was built upon "mystery" to Vatican II and a belief that the old should be thrown out and replaced. Now we are back to kind of a hybrid pre-Vatican II time.

2. Because most Catholics never make a "choice" or decision on their faith, I don't think they fully understand what or who it is to be Catholic.

3. Few people (Protestant or Catholic) really understand where the faith came from in the first place; the role of the First Testament (Old) along with the New. Hell, I constantly hear people picking from both like they are a menu in a deli. It's one or the other; you can't exist in both. The new fulfilled the first (or old). When I studied to be ordained (yes, it was part of my journey to where I am today) a deacon, I discovered the beauty of the first covenant and the Jewish faith. If one does not understand or comprehend it, they can never understand Catholicism or, for that matter, most other Christian religions.

4. The Catholic Church does not often stress personal; rather, it stresses "mystery" and "tradition." Because it does not touch the human side of the person, I think it is much easier to abandon, distance, or walk away from. Unfortunately, when one does not view God as approachable or interested in the person, it is pretty easy to see why they would take on the view that He does not exist.

I find it unfortunate that the Catholic Church is now stressing, anew, through the reintroduction of the latin mass, etc. the movement back from beginning to deal with the person to dealing with more of the institution.

To many, I think there is no God because they failed to ever know God.

5. Because of the secrecy and hierchical nature of the church, the clergy are often not viewed as "human" but rather, "gods" in and of themselves. I believe many sought to take advantage of this view, consequently the child scandals. It also has created a distant, lonely, and troubled clergy (I know, I interracted with many of them -- it's hard to be viewed as "perfect"). When I got divorced, many in the parish I attended shunned me; one lady told me that they viewed that I was "perfect" and should not have had problems. (I can only wonder what they would now think that I'm openly gay!)

6. When Vatican II was adopted by the church, scores of nuns and priests left the church. I think that removing the "mystery" and awakening the personal and human part of the church exposed both sides to the realism that much was missing if you just went through motions and lacked any inner conversion.

Just my thoughts! Merry Christmas!

 

[Kulindahr]

Wiz, that's a wiz of a post!

Mystery and the personal side don't have to be mutually exclusive. But it's an easy trap in churches with lots of ritual to become ritualistic, and the ritual becomes accepted as how one relates to God. Taking other people's development in faith seriously slides to the back burner, behind teaching them the right ritual and the Right Thing. That's clearly what happened to provenlogic, and it's really sad.

Jesus warned of that without quite saying so, in the parable where the shepherd leaves the flock unattended and goes after the one sheep. That parable, besides its main message, is pointing at the importance of the individual, which means the importance of the personal.

It's sad that the 'shepherds' in the Roman Catholic church have too often fallen into ritualism -- and lost both the mystery, and the personal.

 

[LaloGS]

I think that the Catholic church is becoming distant in England because of the Anglican church etc. but around the world especially in latin countries it's becoming more powerful.

The reason the vatican manage to produce so many atheists is simply because more people are catholic than any other religion.

But I think I read somewhere that for every catholic they lose, two more have converted in less well off countries.

I live in a Latin country, I'm not Catholic, but most of the people I meet here are Catholic. However the Catholic Church is loosing ground here especially among the more educated people. The national newspaper El Tiempo published a series of articles that were basically a series of interviews with younger people about their religion, and the only positive interviewees, were the less educated people. The people with education were not at all interested in the Church anymore and the majority of reasons sited related to Confession, Contraception, and a lack of responsiveness to current (modern) life.

I see older, and generally less educated people are still religious, but even some of them if you ask them, will tell you the Church has not done a good job in their lives.

I live near two Cathedrals in Bogotá, Colombia, and occasionally stick my head in to them to see what's going on, and I'm always surprised how few people are attending Masses even on high holy days.

There is another socialist movement sweeping South America, and that political position, usually does not look to the Church for positive assistance. The Church has been a willing and even aggressive participant in helping various regimes in South America to keep the people oppressed. The People apparently have realized it and are awakening to new possibilities other than religion.

I also think you are incorrect in your statement that there are more Catholics than any other religion. It's a Christian centric statement, and even India has more Hindu believers than the Catholic Church has Christians. The Catholic Church seems to be incapable of modern thought. It is probably on a slow slide to oblivion, and given it's history, should be. It isn't so much about a belief system, but rather control and status quo. If they really believed in their "God", the leadership of the church would not live in such splendor while the vast majority of their flock live in abject poverty and ignorance.

 

[thewiz]

Wiz, that's a wiz of a post!

Mystery and the personal side don't have to be mutually exclusive. But it's an easy trap in churches with lots of ritual to become ritualistic, and the ritual becomes accepted as how one relates to God. Taking other people's development in faith seriously slides to the back burner, behind teaching them the right ritual and the Right Thing. That's clearly what happened to provenlogic, and it's really sad.

Jesus warned of that without quite saying so, in the parable where the shepherd leaves the flock unattended and goes after the one sheep. That parable, besides its main message, is pointing at the importance of the individual, which means the importance of the personal.

It's sad that the 'shepherds' in the Roman Catholic church have too often fallen into ritualism -- and lost both the mystery, and the personal.

I totally agree with you Kuli...

I liken the movement to total ritual to my kids growing up. As a parent, I look back now and laugh but when they were young and I would tell them to do something and they would ask, "why" could drive me crazy. "Go clean your room" would be met with, "why?" For them, it was a need to learn, a desire to know what their parent knew.

For many priests and clergy in all churches, having the laity ask, "why" is a challenge and, for some, a nuisance. It is much easier as a parent and, probably for clergy, to just reply, "because I told you." Often times it is a way of hiding ones own insecurities and lack of knowledge. Unfortunately it can also set one up on a pedestal...which can be a long way to fall!

Looking at the latest guidance to come from Rome on the mass, how it is celebrated, and how even the communion vessals are to be cleaned....it looks like we are moving from personal back to the pedestal; kind of like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!

 

[Kulindahr]

Looking at the latest guidance to come from Rome on the mass, how it is celebrated, and how even the communion vessals are to be cleaned....it looks like we are moving from personal back to the pedestal; kind of like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!

You would have liked Father Evanson at Redeemer Lutheran in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Anyone who was going to be in the 'Altar Guild" and handle the communionware had to read a couple of books, one on the historical origins of the vessels, and of the customs, for their use both during the Mass and their care afterward, and explanations offered by various commentators at different points in history giving "theological" reasons for everything. Some of it was hilarious -- the elders didn't approve, saying communion isn't a laughing matter, but Fr. Evanson just quoted the Psalms, "He sits in the heavens and laughs".
Even those who were going to read scriptures had books to read, concerning the origins of the scriptures, when they started being read in churches and why, the beginnings of a calendar of readings, why there are three readings every Sunday, etc. -- and how to pronounce, enunciate, breathe; posture, eye contact, practicing...

He believed that unless someone understood what he was doing, it wasn't worship, just wasted exercise.

 

[sabot3ur]

I went to a roman catholic school for 9 years and was somewhat religious for some of them. I COULD say I became atheist because of the close mindedness, and how god in the bible certainly contradicts the "all loving" aspect of it many many times... but I just thought of it all for myself and realized it wasn't logical at all. believing in the bible or any other religion to me is the same as believing in any kind of mythology. my definition of atheism isn't the belief that there is no god, it's just the complete disregard of religion.