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Why do so many Catholics...

Here's a thought---the ritual and the mystery are important. But what really matters is how these impact the individual and encourage/enable the individual to transcend and have their own experience of the Divine.

Perhaps the problem is not with the religion itself; rather, it is with those who are in the position of relaying the teachings to others. If one is force fed any set of beliefs, they'll ultimately turn away from it or at least from the manner in which it was "taught".

Happy New Year to all!
 
Force-fed teaching, or monotonous teaching, kill the spirit.

Here's an irony: over and over, Jesus said, "Let him who has ears, hear...." If that doesn't say not to force things.... <sigh>
 
This thread has a lot of thoughtful posts (& some silly ones, too) and that helps emphasize the fact that religion of any sort is both remarkably complex and personal. Thse two aspects are many times expressed through a structured church tradition---sometimes not. It has been exciting to read all the material & it cheers me that so many of us still enjoy discussing something profound.
 
Religion made me unreligious. If that makes any sense.

I can understand where you're coming from. I was raised in a cult Church of Christ. they believed Catholics were on the path to hell and the baptist were on the express train to hell.

in my early teens I started to question WHY ? why does god do this and that ? my mom and my best friend died of cancer in the same year, I was 14 years old. I got the pat answer that "its god's way and your's isn't to question why but to accept god's wisdom". I didn't like the answer, I wanted to know why. this led me to question more and always got the same bs answer "it's god's way", so I stopped believing in god. how could a loving caring god take my mom and best friend with something like cancer. how could he let people die of cancer, hurricanes, earthquakes etc ... "it's god's way" fuck that bull shit

so in short, religion made me unreligious.
 
barefootbob, I'd have to say it was shallow and unthinking answers to heartfelt questions that made you unreligious. Such unexamined answers are common because so many religious people seem to believe that thinking is somehow offensive to God. I got the same sort of answers, but it made me think, "These people are idiots; they have no clue so they're hiding behind cheap words"... and I went off to look at the source, the Bible, instead of wasting my time with people who clearly didn't care enough about me to sit down and give a real explanation.

"It's God's way" is about as much an answer to baffling suffering as "They run on the track" is to why cars crash at Daytona. Such an answer might (doubtful) be sufficient for someone 4 years old, but to a 14-y.o. it's just insulting.
To get an answer about a Daytona crash, you have to do a serious investigation -- and to get an answer about God and suffering, the same is true.

I'm sorry you got such cheap treatment from shallow representatives of God.
 
I can understand where you're coming from. I was raised in a cult Church of Christ. they believed Catholics were on the path to hell and the baptist were on the express train to hell.

in my early teens I started to question WHY ? why does god do this and that ? my mom and my best friend died of cancer in the same year, I was 14 years old. I got the pat answer that "its god's way and your's isn't to question why but to accept god's wisdom". I didn't like the answer, I wanted to know why. this led me to question more and always got the same bs answer "it's god's way", so I stopped believing in god. how could a loving caring god take my mom and best friend with something like cancer. how could he let people die of cancer, hurricanes, earthquakes etc ... "it's god's way" fuck that bull shit

so in short, religion made me unreligious.

In fairness to God – people do not live for ever – so death is not optional.

There are some fairly nasty ways to die – but a religious person would just say that this suffering does not last that long – then you get to enjoy eternal life for ever after with God. If you’re a Muslim you also get to have sex with 40 virgins as a special introductory offer to Heaven (* not applicable to homosexuals – as they go to Hell).

Maybe the Catholic concept of “Hell” is one reason why many believers come to abandon this faith. The idea of a God that runs a private torture chamber for “sinners” is not really compatible with that God also being good.

So the Catholic faith is a good candidate to make anyone unreligious.

There's also the more relevant question - is it True or False?
 
The concept of hell is pretty interesting. As a kid (in Catholic school), the basic definition I remember was that it is “separation from God.”
As I got older and my vocabulary increased, the fire and brimstone aspect was added and that very scary “final damnation” part.

OK, so when I reflect on hell being separation from God, that makes sense. Here I’m going to describe God as that part in all of us which is manifested differently, but represents possibility or potential. In a psychological perspective of sorts, that God is to be found in the actualized “Self.” So, in a sense, hell can really be what we can all experience in the here and now when we have lost touch with ourselves. It isn’t a place to which we are banished after this life.

I believe that all things ultimately return to their creator or to the source (I think the term for this is apocatastasis). Why would this loving God create beings/express itself in so many unique and different manifestations only to have them destroyed? The traditional Catholic concept of hell (as expressed in the Baltimore catechism which I experienced) needs to evolve!
 
Perhaps perceptions of guilt create our construct of Hell, rather than our willingness to read the Baltimore Catechism at face value.

The self critical person should assume responsibility for their own understandings, when books can only speak for the opinions of their authors.
 
Sometimes I wonder how the concepts of hell evolved. The Baltimore Catechism and other early church fathers and writings looked at hell as a place separated from God, the creator. This makes sense if one is to truly believe the words in the Apostles Creed: "He (Jesus) decended into hell..."

I could never see Jesus going into a burning sulphur pit; but being separated from his father because of all the sins he bore from this world -- kind of like he was made so ugly by what he took on -- separated him from the creator. Once he had shed that ugliness he led the charge to open the gates of heaven and allowed access to God the creator.

I don't think that was scary enough, unfortunately, for some Catholics to reinforce going to church every Sunday, "don't" doing all the things one was required to perform. Then there were the venial sins and mortal sins; forgiveness, etc., etc. Fire and brimstone would drive one into the confessional and helps keep that holy Catholic guilt!
 
The concept of hell is pretty interesting. As a kid (in Catholic school), the basic definition I remember was that it is “separation from God.”
As I got older and my vocabulary increased, the fire and brimstone aspect was added and that very scary “final damnation” part.

OK, so when I reflect on hell being separation from God, that makes sense. Here I’m going to describe God as that part in all of us which is manifested differently, but represents possibility or potential. In a psychological perspective of sorts, that God is to be found in the actualized “Self.” So, in a sense, hell can really be what we can all experience in the here and now when we have lost touch with ourselves. It isn’t a place to which we are banished after this life.

I believe that all things ultimately return to their creator or to the source (I think the term for this is apocatastasis). Why would this loving God create beings/express itself in so many unique and different manifestations only to have them destroyed? The traditional Catholic concept of hell (as expressed in the Baltimore catechism which I experienced) needs to evolve!

I guess if hell is just “separation from God.” then it's much like normal mortal existence. But the Catholic concept of Hell is more along the lines of Dante's inferno.

Thinking about it - it would be hard to see how the Catholic God could devise any worse suffering and torture on people than human beings have already created here on earth for some people some of the time.

I do think the Catholic concept of Hell is what makes some people abandon that religion.

One good question to any Catholic is "Imagine that you might be wrong?".

The conversion of Tony Blaire (ex British leader) to the Catholic faith (talked about on another thread) is very ironic - here is one (ex) world leader who never had any doubts that his ideas were right - even though (in the case of the Iraq war) the facts have since proved him wrong in the eyes of most people.

The ability to cling to your beliefs in the face of all the evidence is one hallmark of a good Catholic.
 
If you want an interesting presentation of Hell, stripped of Dante's romanticism and other accumulated fantasies, read "The Great Divorce", by C.S. Lewis.

If hell is real - I'll wait for the peer reviewed scientific studies. In the meantime - I guess Dante's ideas have no more or less validity than any others. I'm sure C.S. Lewis did just as much careful scientific research on the book you quote as he did for his Narnia stories.
 
"Scientific"?
I think you're confused; this isn't subject to scientific investigation... kind of like yon can't check the age of a star by using titration of some chemical reagent.

But as for research, Narnia is so chock foll of biblical, theological, philosophical, and historical references my old copies' margins are filled with notes in tiny abbreviated writing.
 
In fairness to God – people do not live for ever – so death is not optional.

There are some fairly nasty ways to die – but a religious person would just say that this suffering does not last that long – then you get to enjoy eternal life for ever after with God. If you’re a Muslim you also get to have sex with 40 virgins as a special introductory offer to Heaven (* not applicable to homosexuals – as they go to Hell).

Maybe the Catholic concept of “Hell” is one reason why many believers come to abandon this faith. The idea of a God that runs a private torture chamber for “sinners” is not really compatible with that God also being good.

So the Catholic faith is a good candidate to make anyone unreligious.

There's also the more relevant question - is it True or False?

you're seeing/thinking as an adult .. try seeing it from the eyes of a heartbroken 14 year old... who prayed to god to save his mom and after she died begging with god to make a deal to take my life and spare my friends, all to no avail.

it was during this time I got the bullshit from the cult (church) about gods way and I figured if god didn't hear my prayer then I don't need to talk to him any furthur. I stopped believing.
 
Hey! Read two books:
1. James Joyce. A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

2.Aldous Huxley. "Nuns at Luncheon"
 
In the Creed, when it says that Jesus “descended into hell”, I think it’s important to consider what is meant by “hell” here. Perhaps we need to consider that it could be like the Hades in Greek mythology. From a psychological perspective, descending into the deep, dark places is a going into our unconscious.

Keep in mind that Jesus was fully human and fully Divine, so that descent into the unconscious can relate to the human journey. And when it is said that He “rose from the dead”, this “dead” can mean being dead from a spiritual perspective.

I view Jesus (a Christ) as an avatar and if we view his life, death and conquering of death metaphorically, it may make more sense to us individually. Please note that I am not discounting the historical accuracy of these events; I’m just considering an additional perspective.

When I was younger, and under the grips of the Baltimore catechism, I’d frequently get into trouble by raising similar thoughts. And the women in black were teaching this, so you can probably guess what this “trouble” entailed.
 
In the Creed, when it says that Jesus “descended into hell”, I think it’s important to consider what is meant by “hell” here. Perhaps we need to consider that it could be like the Hades in Greek mythology. From a psychological perspective, descending into the deep, dark places is a going into our unconscious.

That's an interesting parallel/illustration, but even a cursory examination of the text shows it isn't what's being talked about. As for Greek mythology, even to Plato Hades was a place one went to, not a part of one's self.

Keep in mind that Jesus was fully human and fully Divine, so that descent into the unconscious can relate to the human journey. And when it is said that He “rose from the dead”, this “dead” can mean being dead from a spiritual perspective.

If you want to water it down, your last line works. But, again, that's not what the people who witnessed the Resurrection had to say about it; they said He ate, walked, talked....

I view Jesus (a Christ) as an avatar and if we view his life, death and conquering of death metaphorically, it may make more sense to us individually. Please note that I am not discounting the historical accuracy of these events; I’m just considering an additional perspective.

Metaphor tends to strip meaning from real events more than add to them. Descending into Hell isn't to be compared to some Freudian or Jungian attempt to get in touch with our dark subconscious; it is, rather, the sort of thing which ought to elicit a response akin to, "WTF? He went where? Why the frak would He do that?" -- since Hell is, generally speaking, the last place anyone would want to go.
I fail to see what a metaphorical conquering of death is worth -- it doesn't change my life. What is it to be a metaphor of, or for? What greater thing is it meant to describe?

When I was younger, and under the grips of the Baltimore catechism, I’d frequently get into trouble by raising similar thoughts. And the women in black were teaching this, so you can probably guess what this “trouble” entailed.

That depends on what brand of women in black they were. I was familiar with some Franciscan women in black, whose disciplinary methods tended toward the verbal... in fact, toward Platonic dialogue. :eek:

I know that if I'd been in a class where a priest was talking like you are here, odds are I would have done what I did in/from Methodist confirmation: walked out. I wanted intellectual honesty and rigor, confronting what the record says, not something to water it down.
I wonder if anyone has left a R. Catholic church for that reason, instead of the usual sort of tyranny?
 
"Scientific"?
I think you're confused; this isn't subject to scientific investigation... kind of like yon can't check the age of a star by using titration of some chemical reagent.

But as for research, Narnia is so chock foll of biblical, theological, philosophical, and historical references my old copies' margins are filled with notes in tiny abbreviated writing.

You can however measure the age of a star by looking at the spectra of the light it emits (the more helium for a given size the older the star).

The Narnia stories may have lots of research - but none of of it is scientific.
 
you're seeing/thinking as an adult .. try seeing it from the eyes of a heartbroken 14 year old... who prayed to god to save his mom and after she died begging with god to make a deal to take my life and spare my friends, all to no avail.

it was during this time I got the bullshit from the cult (church) about gods way and I figured if god didn't hear my prayer then I don't need to talk to him any furthur. I stopped believing.

Like all of us your Mom was always bound to die – whether she dies when you are 14 or in an old folks home when you are 54 – the outcome is still the same.

The fact that some people suffer terribly when they die – while some are lucky enough to die almost instantly is more hard to reconcile with the idea of a good God.

But again there are theological explanations of why this suffering is good for your immortal soul – and all part of “Gods Plan” for you.

So the logical (adult) argument about religion can only be based on if it is true or false.

So far I've seen no logical proof that any religion is true.
 
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