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Why do so many Catholics...

^ Not everything, but enough to appreciate that people of faith can have a very different opinion of C.S. Lewis than those without.

It's just not surprising to me that non-believers or religious skeptics see similarities between Lewis and Rowling.

Nor should it be to you. LOL.

I've read both C.S. Lewis and J.K. Rowling.

I think both are good writers and tell a very good story - based on the sales of both of their books - I guess a lot of other people think the same.

As to "studying" either of their works - whats the point? Theres no evidence either author had a "hotline" to God or was anthing other than a very good story teller.

To me it seems rather pretentious to claim these writings are a window on some "deeper meaning" whether magical or religious
 
That's like saying neither Einstein doesn't matter to you any more than the kid sitting in juvie for the fifth time -- both screwed up in basic math.

You clearly missed the point of my statement about the age of stars. That wasn't an isolated musing; it was part of an argument that you also apparently missed, or you wouldn't have called my post off-topic.

Oh -- you are obviously ignorant of the writings of Lewis and of Rowling, if you can say "with a very similar 'magical' background.

The topic of this thread is "Why do so many Catholics become atheists"

So - while discussions of Einsteni/age of stars/Lewis & Rowling are interesting - they are clearly "off-Topic".

I personally feel that the Catholic concept of Hell is one reason why people abandon that particular faith.

In terms of the extent to which the religion accepts Gay sexuality - I can see a lot of other good reasons why people on this forum would reject it as well.

On the "OFF_TOPIC" discussion of Lewis and Rowling - to those of us who are non-beleivers in either magic or religion - these stories are very similar.
 
I've read both C.S. Lewis and J.K. Rowling.
.

As to "studying" either of their works - whats the point? Theres no evidence either author had a "hotline" to God or was anthing other than a very good story teller.

That claim tells me you have not, in fact, "read" C.S. Lewis. If you had, you'd know that he was one heck of a scholar, a deep, clear thinker... who also took some time to write some stories -- which along with the rest of his books are deep and scholarly. You might have dashed through his "children's" books....
In the Narnia stories, as in the Perelandra volumes, Lewis is addressing some serious theological issues -- rarely just one at a time -- in the form of stories. Among those issues are these, which are pertinent to this thread:

What is "the Church"?
Who can be "redeemed"?
Is there salvation outside "the church"?
Is there redemption for "traitors"?
What is "Hell"?

Especially for gay Catholics, those are important questions.
How they're answered will have a lot to do with where one turns when gay, and (Roman) Catholic.
 
That claim tells me you have not, in fact, "read" C.S. Lewis.

What is "the Church"?
Who can be "redeemed"?
Is there salvation outside "the church"?
Is there redemption for "traitors"?
What is "Hell"?.

Some of the very questions asked by Martin Luther(Founder of the luthern church,not Mr.King) before his nailing something or other on a church door.
 
The topic of this thread is "Why do so many Catholics become atheists"

So - while discussions of Einsteni/age of stars/Lewis & Rowling are interesting - they are clearly "off-Topic".

I personally feel that the Catholic concept of Hell is one reason why people abandon that particular faith.

In terms of the extent to which the religion accepts Gay sexuality - I can see a lot of other good reasons why people on this forum would reject it as well.

On the "OFF_TOPIC" discussion of Lewis and Rowling - to those of us who are non-beleivers in either magic or religion - these stories are very similar.

Asian, back in post 86 you began dragging this off-topic. It looks like you can't distinguish between an example or illustration or analogy and the main argument, because you keep picking at the former as though they were the latter.

Einstein, stars, and Lewis were brought in by way of illustration or comment on the actual substance -- they weren't off-topic until you failed to grasp the line of reasoning, and tackled them independently. And IIRC you brought in Rowling... in response to totally missing the value of Lewis.

Lewis' work is relevant to this discussion because it is -- even the "children's stories" -- theological. Rowling has no relevance because it isn't even logical.
 
Some of the very questions asked by Martin Luther(Founder of the luthern church,not Mr.King) before his nailing something or other on a church door.

Actually, he didn't nail them there. The movie Luther gets it right: Luther sent some of his students to a printer to get copies made, and they not only made copies, they nailed one to the church door and handed others out....

All Luther really wanted was a scholarly discussion of the issues. On another level, he saw clearly that Rome was in deep error, and was trying to find someone to show him the way out of his problem: stay loyal to church and truth.

Kinda like the folks under consideration in this thread.
 
I share the thoughts of Kulindahr on the importance of C. S Lewis in all that he has contributed to simplifying Christian beliefs for a broad cross section of people. I would also add that C. S. Lewis's good friend J. C. C. Tolkien also invested much theological wisdom in his wonderful writings.
 
Actually, he didn't nail them there. The movie Luther gets it right: Luther sent some of his students to a printer to get copies made, and they not only made copies, they nailed one to the church door and handed others out....

All Luther really wanted was a scholarly discussion of the issues. On another level, he saw clearly that Rome was in deep error, and was trying to find someone to show him the way out of his problem: stay loyal to church and truth.

Kinda like the folks under consideration in this thread.

But at last this was not to be. Rome was not amused. Or open to discussion. Sort of like the New Pope,We have Today.
 
^ That is one of the huge problems I have had with the charismatic movement -- in the Catholic Church or any other church. Too often they throw out the ritual for all the "feel good" types of things.

Many older Christians (not just Catholics) have a problem with the movement because it always anticipates praying and God answering that prayer word for word. If you aren't getting that answer, you must be praying wrong or aren't "right" with God. If you are sick, it's hard to understand why your prayers aren't be answered and someone else's are getting rich with their prayer.

The emphasis on the spirit and not on anything else throws them off balance much like a drug addict. If they aren't getting their "fix" of the spirit, they usually become disenfranchised and move onto something else. You have to have the spirit but you also have to have depth that carries you through the many other times.

As I said in an earlier post, too many Catholics (at least those that are baptized as infants not those that are properly catechised) have no understanding of the ritual and therefore lack the spirit. They are as off balanced with thinking sitting in a pew will get them to heaven. I had one priest liken it to "you can sit in a garage and wish you were a car all day and all night -- it's not going to happen. Doing the same in church is no different!"

The church I go to balances both very well. Perhaps it is the priest who has a deep and rich understanding (he speaks to the heart and the brain), it may be the relationship to the cardinal and diocese in Washington DC but while worship is lively, it is also beautiful and solemn. The people are friendly and yet very much in awe of what is transpiring.

This is the post I actually came here to respond to, so I've saved it for last.

Somewhere in Michigan I ran into a R. Catholic church that had gone Charismatic. I has a chance to talk to one of the lay leaders, a leader before the Charismatic change, not always happy with it, but still serving.
He told me their priest had said the Charismatics had saved the liturgy. It had gotten dull, dragging instead of lifting, in spite of all the priest could do. But then a couple of the Charismatics started seeing all the elements of the liturgy as what they were: windows on the eternal, each step offering a glimpse into the eternal status of the Christian before God. Over a few months, not only did the Charismatic bunch get excited about it and bring the liturgy alive, they dug into libraries and discovered older parts of the liturgy, and wanted them included. Their enthusiasm caught the whole congregation. Liturgical items that hadn't been used in decades were dragged out, cleaned, repaired, patched, polished..
I saw a Lutheran church where the effect was the same: a deeper appreciation of the liturgy. Where the priest/pastor used to go through the Eucharistic liturgy in a monotone, quickly, thanks to their pressure, and then infectious enthusiasm, he not just chanted but sang it, rich and full of life. Kneelers came back into use, along with incense, processional, and more.

Since Martin Luther has managed to wiggle into this discussion, I'll point out that what those two churches showed is what Luther considered evidence of the true Holy Spirit: not throwing away the past, not turning away from the outward forms, but embracing them and filling them with the meaning they were meant to have.

Now I have to wonder what it would have been like to have attended one of those. Would I have recognized who I was sooner? And... how would the real me have been received?
 
But at last this was not to be. Rome was not amused. Or open to discussion. Sort of like the New Pope,We have Today.

Good comparison.

If you ask me, Luther was right... and Rome is still screwed up (I mean, they got Rattedict, no?).

Heck, dude -- the current pope is enough to make lots of people go atheist.
 
Some of the very questions asked by Martin Luther(Founder of the luthern church,not Mr.King) before his nailing something or other on a church door.

Just for clarification:
Luther didn't found a church. All his life he fought, first against leaving Rome, then against Christians calling themselves anything other than (only, holy, catholic, and apostolic) Christian, and very vehemently against calling any church "Lutheran".

Poor guy. :(
 
No one's disputing that C.S. Lewis's writings include theological themes directly and directly. The point is that, if you're a non-believer or even a skeptic, his stories and Rowling's stories appear similiar. If you're a believer, you want to see some added weight to Lewis' fantasies that are absent from Rowling.

The only relevance to this thread is that the dispute on the issue illustrates the closed mindedness and self-righteousness of some believers and some parts of the Catholic Church, which make no allowance for the fact that there may be more than one way of looking at something.

It's that attitude that drives some Catholics away from the Church, especially when it's applied to things like contraception (use rubber = go to hell, but use thermometer = go to heaven) or being gay (act gay = go to hell, but just be gay and have blue balls = go to heaven).

Now stop squabbling about C.S. Lewis and go in peace. LOL.
 
This is the post I actually came here to respond to, so I've saved it for last..........

Somewhere in Michigan I ran into a R. Catholic church that had gone Charismatic. I has a chance to talk to one of the lay leaders, a leader before the Charismatic change, not always happy with it, but still serving.'''''

He told me their priest had said the Charismatics had saved the liturgy. It had gotten dull, dragging instead of lifting, in spite of all the priest could do. Now I have to wonder what it would have been like to have attended one of those. Would I have recognized who I was sooner? And... how would the real me have been received?


I spent most of my life in Michigan. I remember the first exposure to charismatic worship was at a church that was actually not part of the Diocese of Lansing...it was chartered under a "lay community." As a lay community recognized by Rome, they had to go out and find a pastor and had a specific charter to minister to youth. They had one of the most vibrant and active youth ministeries I had ever seen and we worked with them in the church which I attended. We built up many friendships.

But then one of the older ladies who was instrumental in founding the community began to go, as I will loosely term it, over the edge. Others began to side with her and soon the church split with about 1/2 to 2/3 of the the members leaving. I called them the walking wounded because many were so horribly hurt. The split started when the older member thought people were not being filled with the spirit and manifesting it in the proper way. Soon the priest, who tried to intervene, was asked to leave. I'm not sure where they are today but last I knew they were struggling to even pay the bills.

Our priest was a dynamic younger guy and I remember when we prayed over him for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It was truly one of the most memorable occasions I can remember. He was transferred from our parish and the new pastor, while a very nice man, was pretty much coasting to retirement. The youth groups soon began to dwindle as has the collection. When I was home for Christmas, the liturgy was stiff, the participants were looking at their watches more than enjoying the beauty and majesty of what was transpiring. The collection was about half of what it had been; truly sad.

Luther was so right on so many levels. Rome had become wordly and was interested in "things" versus ministering to the spirit and through the spirit. It took almost four hundred years after the split and subsequent Council of Trent before Vatican II began to realize what was being said. The church is not known for moving fast; I can only hope it doesn't under this pope!
 
Going Backwards is easy for the Holy Roman Church,So under this "NEW"Pope it will very easily reverse it's self on many issues. Do not expect a more progressive movement forward by the Holy See,in the immediate future. Just thank God this pope is just about as old as dirt it's self.
 
The second reason, the one that applies more to academics is that Catholicism despite its disdain for modernity has in fact been a little more willing to approach science than say a fundamentalist tradition. In doing so they have kind of let atheism in the back door. By discussing science on science's terms and trying to cultivate a natural theology which supports revelation they have created a "god of the gaps" type situation that just keeps getting smaller and smaller. This coincidentally leads to a bigger and bigger dependance on the first problem: the hierarchical dogmatism which becomes less and less satisfying but they more than any others realize that biblical revelation came at a specific time and a specific place and while it is all the word of God it is not all relevant to the same degree...the CAtholic must be looking at the world "the first revelation" to be determining the will of god and weighing this against apostolic tradition. I think dissapointed catholics realize that this is pretty much what atheists do..just without the God part.

This explanation is excellent (with a high school and Law degree from Catholic schools, I can speak for the Church's shockingly liberal attitude to academics) and is a massively underestimated reason for the slippage of many RC's to Athiesm (and I was there for a while, too).
 
That claim tells me you have not, in fact, "read" C.S. Lewis. If you had, you'd know that he was one heck of a scholar, a deep, clear thinker... who also took some time to write some stories -- which along with the rest of his books are deep and scholarly. You might have dashed through his "children's" books....

Its obvious you have a special “spiritual” definition of the word “Read”. In my case I think I've read both C.S. Lewis and J.K. Rowling. – they both seem good writers.
 
i just need to say this after reading about it in a few topics relating to catholicism...
why is it that everyone is so anti catholic when the issue of material wealth within the church is bought up and the fact that its hypocritical against its teachings on poverty?
Do people forget that the Roman catholic church is both a religion but also an 'organisation' of some sought.. papal states ringing any bells? what church or political insitution would survive without funds? as a matter of fact it still is a political state. anyway the vatican saved innumerable works of both art and books.. people tend to forget that a good many of the classics are in the vatican library while the vatican spends money on its museums and conserving art works...

and yes it has its faults.. but just like any other nation and religion.. anyway i just had to say it.


maybe it's because so much of the evangelization is motivated by greed... and no, I don't think the church could survive as an "organisation" without their silly expensive costumes, gigantic cathedrals and churches, fancy seminaries, and nice cars...

and don't forget all the funds used to pay off the families of children molested and raped!

and it costs money to move those "defrocked" priests into other parishes across the country, where noone there knows what they've done in the past...
 
...why is it that everyone is so anti catholic when the issue of material wealth within the church is bought up and the fact that its hypocritical against its teachings on poverty?
Do people forget that the Roman catholic church is both a religion but also an 'organisation' of some sought.. papal states ringing any bells? what church or political insitution would survive without funds? as a matter of fact it still is a political state. anyway the vatican saved innumerable works of both art and books.. people tend to forget that a good many of the classics are in the vatican library while the vatican spends money on its museums and conserving art works...

and yes it has its faults.. but just like any other nation and religion.. anyway i just had to say it.

The problem with what you're saying is that the level of material weath accumulated by the Catholic Church is well, well beyond that required simply to maintain its administration and organization.

Imagine what would happen if you put someone who had run an efficient charity in charge. The costs of management and administration would be reduced to a mininum, unnecessary capital assets would be liquidated or turned into income sources for the charitable purpose, etc. And that includes preserving art work, etc.

As things stand, the Church pays some lip service to doing that, but much of its wealth benefits too few people. No different from groups like Scientology or the Falwell type of congregations or corporations like Enron.

Plus why doesn't the Church publish acccounts and provide details of its major financial transations like any well run public charity or corporation. Lack of financial transparency and accountability almost always results in corruption and misuse of funds by individuals.


It's hard to conceive of Christ rattling around an opulent palace while others in the world are homeless and starving. And it is hypocritical for his successor to do what Christ would not.
 
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