Why do straights hate gays? by Larry Kramer

[dpnice]

No.

Because it is so easy for people like you and him to discount the fact that people can DIE if they come out in certain circumstances and you people just don't care. It is a matter of ideology for you yet it is a matter of life or death fro others and you just don't care. This is just not right. Period.

I purposely stayed away from this aspect of coming out as first of all it is not really pertinant to our countries. Plus it can arouse even more violent reactions. But as you mentioned it I will throw myself into the lion's den.

In any fight for freedom a risk has to be taken by a few for the benefits of the majority. If homosexuality carries a death penalty where does the change come from if no one takes the risk to fight it face on and come out? Yes I understand that I am saying some people will suffer violence and outright hatred and I am not certain that I could be one of those who have the courage to stand up in such a situation.

Hasn't every fight for freedom in the USA involved assassinations and extreme violence?

Obviously I do have some compassion for people in such countries but at the same time you must accept that nothing will change unless someone has that special courage to take the risk.

 

[Chalchalero]

Thanks, Chalchalero.

First off, though... It's not a pvt conversation, I posted it in public.

Secondly, I understand that every gay person doesn't HAVE to come out,
but if we ALL want equality, I think that coming out is one of the most important steps one can take in achieving this.

If not in our lifetimes, then for the generations coming up behind ours.
I think as gay people it is one of our most important responsibilities.

Not to lapse into total gay cliche, but to quote Sondheim, "First time a ripple, next time a wave..."

It's got to start somewhere, and it did with the Stonewall riots back in the 60's. But make no mistake, ours is every bit as important as that first stepping stone.

I have never denied that I agree with you in this regard. In fact in an earlier thread I actually stated that I do not necessarily agree with people who want the "DL" benefits and then the benefits of being respected as the "straight" guy at home.

My point was simply that there are some people who fell they simply do not have the choice to come out and so do not. There are also people who might be comsidering it now as we write these exchanges. I just do not believe that anyone has a right to judge them and decide when and whether it is appropriate for them to come out. It is a personal decision and one which should be made by the person.

Would it be great if every MSM came out and announced it? You betcha! But that isn't going to happen. And hating those who do not come out because they do not isn't any more helpful.

 

[Chalchalero]

Ok. That's fine. I was simply trying to reconcile you're other comments with this statement:


===================================
Unrelated to the above quote and comment...
I'm still unsure if you understand the difference between political and transformational activism. The focus of your posts have been almost solely focused on the obtaining of legal changes which is all about and focused upon political activism which is unrelated to whether or not that activism is militant or not. While seemingly underestimating how even the most closeted gay man can participate in transformational activism.

Scratch this as its a failed attempt at poor rationalization. [strike]While I don't agree with the demeaning of individuals, I do think at heart Soilwork is also speaking in some regards to encourage people to be out and participate in transformational activism, while he does so from a sense of urgency and feeling it will bring about immediate change in their lives, I encourage it not because it will provide immediate change to their situation, or yours or mine who are out for that matter, but because of its cummulative effect over time and can be engaged in .[/strike]

It's a good ting I went back in the posts, because you added this after I'd already responded to the first part.

I do understand transformational activism. I just do not agree with the notion or even effectiveness of it. I believe that people are provincial by nature. They only know what they know. I believe that unless you legislate change they will not demand it. I may be wrong here, I can handle that. But in my country of origin, Argentina, there has finally been some legislation in this regard, and yet the Catholic Church and many individuals, including on an official level are still quite at home with attacking gays. But what matters is that they are protected legally, so whatever attacks are aimed at them can be penalised.

Sitting around and waiting until Mrs. Johnson next door likes you and your gayness will never accomplish anything. Only legislation will.

 

[dpnice]

No.

........you people just don't care. It is a matter of ideology for you yet it is a matter of life or death fro others and you just don't care. This is just not right. Period.......................


If you want equality and the right to live your life as you choose, the where the hell do you or anyone else get off deciding that others cannot have that same right?

I took great care in my post not to show an agressive attitude to those who refuse to come out as naturally I understand their difficulties and emotional turmoil.

But understanding and caring does not change one's belief in an opinion. I do believe their lives would be better as would the subsequent acceptance from society for homosexuals and their rights.

Perhaps I shouldn't speak for Soilwork but I don't get the impression that he doesn't care and doesn't understand the difficulties some people suffer. But he is adamant that their lives won't improve until they face up to that and find the courage to overcome them.

 

[Chalchalero]

I purposely stayed away from this aspect of coming out as first of all it is not really pertinant to our countries. Plus it can arouse even more violent reactions. But as you mentioned it I will throw myself into the lion's den.

In any fight for freedom a risk has to be taken by a few for the benefits of the majority. If homosexuality carries a death penalty where does the change come from if no one takes the risk to fight it face on and come out. Yes I understand that I am saying some people will suffer violence and outright hatred and I am not certain that I could be one of those who have the courage to stand up in such a situation.

Hasn't every fight for freedom in the USA involved assassinations and extreme violence?

Obviously I so have some compassion for people in such countries but at the same time you must accept that nothing will change unless someone has that special courage to take the risk.

I fear there is a certain level of naïveté involved with the perceptions that some of us as complacent Americans tend to have when it comes to this subject. Whether we like to admit it or not, death is a VERY real possibility for people who come out in this country. It seems no one reads but a fraction of my posts, but I have already referred (twice) to the guy in Queens who was murdered and to Matthew Shepard. Must I also refer to Scott Schweickert, who was convicted of raping and murdering gay men in Tampa, Florida; Eric Rudolph, who bombed the gay bar in Atlanta, the daily reports of (and unreported) gay bashings which take place throughout the country?

It is so easy for those of us who do not suffer through these things to simply say "Oh well! It's just a part of the fight!" and go back to watching WB. But these people were not enjoying what they went through, and there are alot of other people who are watching it and saying, "thanks, no. Not for me." That is their choice, and they have a right to it.

 

[Chalchalero]

I took great care in my post not to show an agressive attitude to those who refuse to come out as naturally I understand their difficulties and emotional turmoil.

But understanding and caring does not change one's belief in an opinion. I do believe their lives would be better as would the subsequent acceptance from society for homosexuals and their rights.

Perhaps I shouldn't speak for Soilwork but I don't get the impression that he doesn't care and doesn't understand the difficulties some people suffer. But he is adamant that their lives won't improve until they face up to that and find the courage to overcome them.

I do believe their lives would be better as would the subsequent acceptance from society for homosexuals and their rights.

First off, as we are talking about a great many more people than either of us could possibly know personally, how do you know that all of their lives will somehow be made better by coming out?

I do not know about you, but did you suddenly have a panoply of rights or a plethora of acceptance the day you came out that you did not previously have? I have already recounted the story of what happened to me after my first lover died (I tought you said you read all of the posts???). I know I didn't magically receive any new rights or acceptance. None that I am aware of yet, anyway. Maybe I missed the memo...(Just a little sarcastic humour here, not trying to be mean...)

I do not doubt, simply from what I have read here, that Soilwork is a man who is devoted to his community and the things which he deems important. The only exception I take with him is his assertion and apparent belief that closeted gays are somehow responsible for the intolerance against gays as a whole and the fact that there is some obligation on their part to come out, "consequences be damned, you're a pussy if you don't."

My impression that he does not understand what these people suffer comes from the extremely judgemental statements and unkind words he has had for people in the closet and his assertion and determination that, no matter what, he is right, and everyone else be damned.

He has no understanding of what keeps people in the closet. I don't care how many "excuses" he believes he has heard, he has obviously not heard them all. And he is completely unmoved by what such a decision can cost the people who are forced to decide whether or not to make it.

Someone who has demonstrated these characteristics tends to take on the appearance of a person who does not care about anyone who does not conform according to what he believes people should be doing.

I do not wish to make judgements upon a person I do not know, but I am perfectly within my rights to make observations based upon what he has posted. Now you obviously know him better than I do, so perhaps my opinion is wrong. But if you have truly read all of the posts here, even you would have to concede that this is more than heavy-handed. He is most determined in his assertions ("I know I'm right" - his words, not mine) and his posts are totally lacking in any empathy or even the slightest interest in understanding the individual plights of others.

His appears to me to be a cookie-cutter philosophy. "I am gay, ergo I should be out. I do not and can not agree with this way of thinking.

 

[Chalchalero]

I've tried really hard to keep my passions and anger in check in this discussion, but this really struck a nerve with me, someone who has been shot at, has had friends killed in my presence both gay and straight, one straight friend in particular because some nut job made an assumption that they were gay when they were not. So, I'll acknowledge this is a knee jerk reaction but you did strike a raw nerve with me.

What unmitigated arrogance. How the hell do you know what "those of us" speaking here have experienced or gone through or whether or not we find it "easy" to advocate involvement? What dangers we've experienced, what sacrifices we've made, what threats to our life have or have not been experienced or been made against us, or what risks were involved and considered and evaluated along with the relative probabilities of certain risks occuring that we weigh with regard to our being open about our situation in the same way we evaluate our risks of being mugged walking or living in certain neighorhoods but make the choice to live there or walk down the street anyway. Who have learned to not be intimidated by our fears but to live and go about our lives despite those fears, be those fears ones of being "gay bashed" or a victim of a drive by shooting or errant bullet when we live in gang infested neighborhoods. Who do give considered thought to what we do or do not advocate and when, where, or what form. Whom as dpnice stated, take great care to not be aggressive in our attitudes toward encouraging individuals to come out, but do speak about the broader benefits to society when people are willing to stand up and be counted, whether that involves making a small or a large personal sacrifice of some form.

Arrogance or not, the fact is that there was no "great care" involved in the post which began this discussion. There was name-calling and a great deal of anger and accusations.

I do not pretend to know what you may or may not have gone through. Perhaps I was wrong in the way I phrased the statement which you quoted (oddly enough the only thing you seem to have read in that post...).

I do know that I grew up in a country where being gay was a licence to be beat up, harassed and imprisoned by the police and even murdered. During the Dirty War in Aregtnina, there were countless gay activists who found themselves in the Esma being "questioned" (read: tortured and beaten until near death) about their "leftist" leanings and associations and then dropped over the ocean to die.

I do know of the examples that I have already laid out for you in this very country where you said such things do not happen, and of many more.

Ialso know that despite what you purport to know, you are still defending the words and tactics of a man who has demonstrated absolutely no empathy for these things, at least not here, and you have yet to even qualify your approval of them. I therefore wonder about the effect that the things you say you have experienced could possibly have had on you when you still believe that calling people who do not come out "gutless" is a swell thing.

 

[Chalchalero]

deleted

Had second thoughts about leaving comments obviously the result of a raw nerve having been struck.

I didn't know you had deleted it and have no idea how to do the same. If the moderators choose to do so, they are welcome to it...

 

[NickCole]

^^Wow, even more of the same bullshit attitude. I am all for encouraging people to come out of the closet, but do you really think it's going to happen when you tell them they don't deserve the rights because they're in the closet? Before you know anything about the situation? because that is a pretty awful thing to say.

Coming out of the closet has little to do with what other people say, whether it's hearts and flowers or a cattle prod to the patootie.

Coming out is a personal decision, a step forward in one's life, an act of defiance and courage and maturity. And even though it feels like an event it's really a process. Those things are primarily sparked by what happens within a man, not the sweet or harsh words of others.

For the most part we're expressing opinion here, not expecting anything we say will cause anyone to come out of the closet. But those of us who are out do have valuable experience to share no matter how we express it. Remember we have been in the closet and out; those in the closet only have been in.

 

[dpnice]

I don't believe that I can add any more to this thread having stated my opinions and beliefs on the subject.

I would like to state that it is a shame that certain members who complain of the flippancy of "Hot Topic" threads have not thought it worthy to participate in depth on a subject that seems to hold a reasonable depth of interest.

It is easy to be aggressive here on these forums and I don't wish to censor any comments if your anger pushes you to reply in such a manner. I would hope, though, that you could find the ability to look behind the manner in which something is said and see the meaning or opinion implied.

I am certainly not here to change your beliefs or point of view on a subject but to share mine with you. Should you disagree with me is totally acceptable as I assume that my arguments will not influence you in that way. The benefits, for me personally, are that I discover how others think and what they hold as beliefs and opinions.

My deepest wish is that by revealing your beliefs/point of view you provide a means of reflection for those not yet firm in their opinions. For me it is a means for them to weigh up the different views presented and finally in relationship to their own experience develope their own.

To all of you not yet 'out' I hope all the comments here have been of help to you in deciding and understanding how your actions may affect society as a whole. I think you probably know and understand the effects it would have on your personal life.

I wish you all courage in achieving the life which brings you the maximum of happiness.

 

[NickCole]

It does to some extent, we are on a board where I am sure there are people who are in the closet and that could possibly be reading this thread ( or any other), I am sure the encouragement to come out might have some influence on some one. Even if it's just a little bit. So I am sure it works just the exact other way when people put down other people in the closet.

Yeah but we're all different.

Some are more likely to take action if they're challenged rather than sweet talked.

Some respond to, "Please, honey, please come out from under that porch. I'll give you a cupcake if you do."

And others respond to, "Get the hell out from under there. What are you some kind of nut?! Only cowards run away like that!"

Me, I never went anywhere for a cupcake. But convince me I haven't measured up and you light a fire under my ass.

Different strokes.

 

[CoolBlue71]

Straight people are pretty stupid.

There's plenty of heterosexuals who cannot imagine why a person is homosexual, and it doesn't dawn on them to look at how and why their own gender is viewed as attractive by the opposite sex. As if a male and female connecting with each other is…the thing to do. Like as life just happens -- all on its own.

Let them think it's their…personality.

Ignorance is bliss. Always has been; always will be.

 

[Chalchalero]

I just want to apologise publically for the fact that last night it appears that I confused two different posters and ended up pissing one of them off immensely. I do apologise for that and will attempt to make sure that I am more careful in the future. I apologise as well to anyone who had to endure reading that unpleasant exchange.

I would have written this last night but my computer crashed and I could not get back into the site until this morning.

 

[JNewYork]

And people who dislike gays, do so because gays don't come out the closet.

???

This is evidence, where? Care to show the empirical data?

Plenty of gays are out. And they are NOT liked.

 

[Soilwork]

Plenty of gays are out. And they are NOT liked.

and the evidence of that is where? Any empirical data?

 

[Pushover]

Look around you, soil, and you might learn something of other people's feelings and maybe form a real opinion rather than blaming problems on a select group.

 

[Soilwork]

Look around you, Pushover... there's lots of gay men and women who's lives have changed for the better once they came out and have changed the minds of those close to them.

But hey, you wanted to stay in the closet just to piss me off.

Shall I also send a knife so you can cut off your nose to spite your face?

 

[Pushover]

Sorry, but you just come off to me as somebody who is mad at the world and likes to bully people to feel better about yourself. I may be wrong, but I just feel you are an angry person and fighting about everything is your way of dealing with it. On these forums at least.

I don't want to fight or start an unhealthy arguement, but you just sound so cruel and unfeeling.

 

[Soilwork]

Well, actaully, I'm a 40-ish gay man who's tired of watching gay men waste their lives by acting like little boys well into their senior years.

I think gay men should never forget that above all, they're men. And they should act like them.

I have a very short patience for whiners, complainers, lame-o guys who blame all their problems on things unrelated to their own lack of will and men who seem to think being gay or bisexual is some kind of license to sneak around and back-stab and lie.

I'm sick of watching full-grown men being so damn worried about what the neighbours think. I'm so sick of watching full grown men being so upset about what Mom might think.

I'm so tired of heard guys here on JUB blaming every tragedy in their life on being gay when the real culprit is their own unwillingness to address the real problems.

I'm not angry at all. I laugh a lot. I love my life... who woudln't?

But I DO get angry at people who seem to be hell-bent on their own self-destruction and I won't try to come across as a nice guy if it means not giving them that swift ass-kick that they so desperatly need.

 

[Pushover]

Now I see where you're coming from.....but I still don't have to like it.

Still, some people have reasons not to come out or come out late, like mental illnesses, sociopathic disorders, and the knowledge that the truth can hurt those you care about. I myself and am struggling with the aspect of coming out because i've got a panic disorder that makes me cringe at the very thought of it.

Sorry we can't all live up to your standards.