Why jobs are sent overseas.

[Kulindahr]

I see no evidence that gay are excluded from work on a large scale. You may hear if individual cases, but almost all gays find work.

Following this, then slavery shouldn't be objected to so long as you're treated well.

This is called "missing the point".

Why would you want to force yourself into a job working for someone who does not like you and does not want to hire you? Giving gays the right to sue when they are unhappy actually make them less desirable employees. No one wants to hire some one whom he fears will sue him. Remember, the anti discrimination laws are more about lawsuits that jobs. Do you want to inform the boss up front that you are gay? If you want to sue for discrimination, you will need to prove that he actually knew you were gay. Some , perhaps most, discrimination against gays is actually against men who are effeminate acting. That, as far as I know is not protected anywhere, and may be considered by some to be a valid job disqualification in some cases.

So what you really want is only affluent white males to be allowed to work. That's what your position comes down to!

Were the civil rights laws about lawsuits? No, they were about liberty, including the liberty to make an example of some jackass too Neanderthal to be part of the modern human race by treating other human beings as livestock, through lawsuits aimed at bankrupting the jerk.

A gay man may refuse or quit employment for a bad reason or no reason at all. Why should his rights be superior to those of the employer?

He owns himself. The employer is bound by contract.

If an employer fires someone for no reason at all, that fact should be made public, and ALL his employees should quit on the spot, and ALL other workers should refuse to sign with him, and ALL customers should immediately refuse to buy from him.
Why? Because he's demonstrated that he's arbitrary, cruel, undependable, inhumane, and more.

The employer works and invests to create the job and carries all the burdens listed above. He is obligated to pay the salaries etc even when he is losing money. We should not add the burden of law suits by gays.

We should add all real costs of doing business in a civilized world. You make like the idea of a bigoted world of oppression, but until the ONLY reason for someone being fired is failure to do the job, we do not have liberty.

 

[Kulindahr]

The point is that illadvised laws and regulations played a central part in the meltdown.

In the sense that lifting a speed limit in a rural residential area from 35 to 75 is "regulation", sure.

 

[Kulindahr]

BTW, Benvolio, I'm still waiting for some names of trial lawyers who have contributed to my party.

 

[thewiz]

I think if one looks objectively at your argument, it begins to fall apart. Like them or not (and I have sat on both sides of the table), labor unions created the middle class in this country. They also eliminated child labor and greatly improved working conditions. Do I think they often went too far? Yes...they did. But the pendulum swung back and they have lost much of their clout for financial gains. Looking at corporate CEO pay is another matter...it has gotten obscene. Take risks and run your companyinto the ground...we'll raise your pay since you are the only one that can figure out the maze you created that got us there. Rewarding bank CEO's after nearly taking us into the greatest depression would earn them the door in my book but instead most laid low and are now reaping record pay. Companies took business first to Mexico. Look what lack of all you described did --ever drink the water? Ever see their land and water pollution from something other than FOX news? After raping that country, the work was next moved to China and India. It is now on the move again because the $2 wages have become too burdensome. I just finished working in several Mexican cities that are filled with empty industrial buildings and pollution worse than I have ever seen. I just hosted groups from China who lament they can no longer go outside during some time periods and they, too, face massive contamination, poor worker pay, and know the work will move on if pay increases. So I would gladly trade your list for our country. You also failed to mention that in most other countries, health care is a government issue and not one forced on business. The auto companies and the Henry Fords can be thanked because they saw insurance as a cheap benefit in lieu of wages and a way to keep employees on the job and not using sick time!

 

[Benvolio]

BTW, Benvolio, I'm still waiting for some names of trial lawyers who have contributed to my party.

See number 16 above. I do hope you are not going to claim you do not vote Democrat for most positions. You argue Democrat positions. If it quacks like a duck.......

 

[Kulindahr]

See number 16 above. I do hope you are not going to claim you do not vote Democrat for most positions. You argue Democrat positions. If it quacks like a duck.......

I'm a libertarian -- I vote almost purely Libertarian. And I've voted for enough Democrats in my entire life to count on my fingers.

I don't "argue Democrat positions" -- I argue against stupidity and for liberty. At the moment it so happens that the biggest stupidity on the board is coming from people who espouse right-wing anti-liberty positions; the situation has been different, and then I get called a Republican or fascist.

Which reminds me -- have you decided to be honest and join Stormfront?

 

[rareboy]

^ It is one of things that makes me doubt that Benvolio is a lawyer.

He would be spouting citations like crazy if 'he' was actually a legit jurist.

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

An extreme example? Look at the young man fired from the Library of Congress just a few weeks ago; fired, and after three years of promotions. It is happening, and for no other reason than someone's sexuality.

Would I want a law suit? You bet your ass I would. Would I let someone fire me because they dislike what I am? No fucking way. I'd drag that employer through every level of court because no prejudice or compunction supersedes the basic edict of liberty. I'd sue their asses until I could be sure that when younger gay men and women come up for a job in that company, nothing will stand in their way.

I've been considering your points of view and trying to get a hold on what it is exactly that you want, Benvolio, and I'm convinced that the reason American jobs go overseas is because of you. Those that think like you decide that profit in their pocket is better than fair wages, and then claim that anyone wanting a fair wage is greedy, that health care should only be given to those who can pay for it, that Civil Rights amount to nothing more than whining minorities who want more than their fair share. They'll pay for slave labor because they don't give a shit about America - all they give a shit about is themselves. And they cry about the bleeding-heart liberals when someone calls them on their lack of ethics and claim that America is only for the survivors because look how well we did back in 1800.

I might add, before anyone asks, that I am an American, born in Michigan and living in London with my British partner who isn't allowed to come back with me because that's what the reality is for gay people in America, and I know very well the country into which I was born.

If you're a gay man and you back away from an employer who fires you, you're a coward and you should be ashamed of yourself. You have no integrity. Add that to your list of reasons why America is losing jobs. The rest of it only amounts to one thing: an enormous stinking pile of horseshit.

Sorry to quote your entire post, Patrick, but it's worth repeating. It's heartfelt and smart and the best overall post I've read in a while. You're aces, bud!

 

[Kulindahr]

Would I want a law suit? You bet your ass I would. Would I let someone fire me because they dislike what I am? No fucking way. I'd drag that employer through every level of court because no prejudice or compunction supersedes the basic edict of liberty. I'd sue their asses until I could be sure that when younger gay men and women come up for a job in that company, nothing will stand in their way.

Well said.

That's where suits are appropriate. If I decide to run up the steps of a store and slip, or park hot coffee from a restaurant on my dash and spill it when I accelerate into traffic, those were my decisions, and should be laughed out of court. But when someone's liberty has been trodden on by reason of bigotry, then full speed ahead!

 

[Benvolio]

^The laws and regulations in this case were effectively written by Wall Street and its corporate friends.

Nonsense. Why would they want laws requireing them to make such loans? The entire purpose of the Community Reinvestment Act was to force the banks to make loans they would prefer not to make as a matter of business,

 

[Just_Believe18]

^ You're being called out in multiple threads, and here I see you're continuing to post while ducking out of the heat. Sounds like the game is up, Benvolio.

 

[bankside]

Actually the biggest reason is not wages or law suits or regulation.

China offers central planning.

A western company with a product to make can count on a one-stop transaction providing an entire supply chain. The government supervises the process. It amounts to state planning powered by private capital. But the key part is with one investment, one order, an entire integrated supply chain is brought into effect, with any new capacity required being built before the ink dries on the contract. Free enterprise is being out-competed by non-free, centrally-managed, hand-picked enterprise.

Incidentally I have no ideological horse in that race; it's just a matter of coordination, it doesn't need to come from government. To compete, western companies need to be much more coordinated and interoperable, and they need to take a wider view of their potential market.

 

[Benvolio]

Nevertheless, the savings result from the things I have listed. I doubt if many companies go overseas to have the Chinese government organize it for them. Most jobs sent overseas probably are not manufacturing and not to China. The most obvious ones are customer service sent to India or at least places where they speak some English.

 

[Kulindahr]

Nevertheless, the savings result from the things I have listed. I doubt if many companies go overseas to have the Chinese government organize it for them. Most jobs sent overseas probably are not manufacturing and not to China. The most obvious ones are customer service sent to India or at least places where they speak some English.

Several million manufacturing jobs have gone overseas; the reason this is so noticeable is that the typical job moved deprives a US worker of $65k/year. A customer service job moved to India typically pays less than $15k.

For perspective, in the last two decades, U.S. manufacturing companies have invested more per year, every year, in the Low Countries, than in China.

 

[Seasoned]

This boils down to Karl Marx's admonition, "workers of the world unite." Can you imagine living wages and humane working conditions everywhere? Employers with nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

 

[Benvolio]

This boils down to Karl Marx's admonition, "workers of the world unite." Can you imagine living wages and humane working conditions everywhere? Employers with nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

It might happen some day as capitalism expands to other countries as it has. But the population of the world expands at 100 million a year, far faster than economies can expand. Workers uniting will not help as they will inevitably compete with workers in other countries. The unions have objected strenuously to NAFTA and similar free trade agreements and object to sending jobs overseas.

 

[Kulindahr]

It might happen some day as capitalism expands to other countries as it has. But the population of the world expands at 100 million a year, far faster than economies can expand. Workers uniting will not help as they will inevitably compete with workers in other countries. The unions have objected strenuously to NAFTA and similar free trade agreements and object to sending jobs overseas.

And economics will get really interesting when we get around to not just stopping the increase of the population but reversing that to get down to a sensible number.

If we'd get our asses in gear and develop robots to start terraforming Mars, we could move some population there, though we'd need elevators to orbit to move any significant number.

 

[EastMed]

This boils down to Karl Marx's admonition, "workers of the world unite." Can you imagine living wages and humane working conditions everywhere? Employers with nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

Not while 9 Apple executives can earn as much in a year as 89,000 of the contracted workers who make its products.

Comparing the pay of Apple

 

[Kulindahr]

Not while 9 Apple executives can earn as much in a year as 89,000 of the contracted workers who make its products.

Comparing the pay of Apple

That's disgusting.

I remember when Nike and some others were actual pushing the pay envelope where their factories were overseas. Apple should take a cue from that and give all its workers over there a $1/hr raise. Workers for companies here ought to be setting the example, not lagging.

Besides, it's good economic policy for us: the faster foreign wages rise, the sinner companies will start keeping more jobs here because the difference won't be so great. Heck, it's already cheaper to hire in Mexico than in China; the real difference there is that no one in Mexico has organized work barracks. It would even be a big improvement if we built factories in Mexico to replace ones in China: a neighbor's prosperity always enhances one's own country's prosperity, and in this case it would keep some of the invaders home.

 

[bankside]

Mexico can't compete with the same benefits of scale as china, and as asserted earlier unit labour cost is not really the issue. China is the only market where you can say "I need an assembly plant with 50 000 new hires within an hour's drive of my top 16 component suppliers and I want it to open within 8 months. Which button do I press to make that happen?" The supply chain in China treats "assembly plants with 50 000 new workers" as a standard stocked item.

The economies of scale there are unfathomable; Mexico is a relatively pointless alternative.