Why shouldn't all education be free ??

[Telstra]

As has been said many times, it still isn't free. Somebody is paying for it.

Free for students.
Of course paid by the state like defense budget !!!

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

wwot education?
_wen education start bees gurd ting yesurday-
ha
!yesurday wot apees human neva figa!
but wot wuck taday a taday
"ha"

anyway

maybe human apeess wike bees stoopid cretin a anal bug eatars

tinku

 

[aaggii]

As has been said many times, it still isn't free. Somebody is paying for it.

Someone (everyone) is paying for the road you use to go to your work. I guess you should have paid for it yourself, isn´t it so?

 

[LilBit]

I assume you're talking about public colleges and universities. I also assume you're not also proposing that room and board be free as well. As you may know, public higher education was largely free until the early sixties, when modest fees were introduced. Over the last fifty years the cost of higher education has increased quite beyond the rate of inflation, and fees have increased as well. Why? The reasons are oft-described, but not--at this time--easy to remedy:

1. The enormous increase in the size and remuneration of administrators and their supporting staff. A great deal of this comes from the need to comply with the ever-increasing burden of government regulations, mandates and threats, but much of it also comes from the assumed necessity to minister to the ever-enlarging panoply of perceived student needs. An office of Gender Equality was unimaginable in 1955, as were counselors to help students through the supposed rigors of campus life.

I agree with this up until the last sentence and a half. In 1955, colleges weren't concerned about gender equality because most of them weren't to thrilled about going co-ed in the first place. Same with racial integration.

2. The enormous increase in the size and remuneration (at the professorial level) of faculty. At most schools, the number of hours that an individual professor teaches has declined considerably since the 60's at the same time as salaries have increased.

Except that the professors who make these large salaries are a small minority. Nationwide, 80% of college faculty are non tenure-track. Many of us make less with advanced degrees than what our undergrads make immediately upon graduation. And I typically work 60-hour weeks. I pick up extra work both during the school year and during the summer to supplement my salary.

3. The proliferation of courses that are offered primarily to please a pressure group or satisfy a current fashion (various race-based studies programs, gender studies, film studies). They cost real money to teach and administer, and they take up space, leading to the need for more space, meaning new buildings.

If the mainstream courses gave equal representation to women, queer people, and people of color, maybe we wouldn't need special courses for their history and culture. Not to mention that courses dealing with underrepresented populations are important in preparing students for professions where they'll interact with people from cultures other than their own. As for film, why is that any less legitimate a field of study than written literature or other forms of visual arts? Just because it's a newer art form doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate field of study.

4. A significant number of new programs in advanced science and engineering, programs that require not simply new buildings but sophisticated and ever-changing equipment within those buildings.

First, those programs are essential for this country if we're to remain economically competitive. Second, much of the funding for those programs comes from external grants.

5. Competition for students. Lavish student unions, sports facilities, gymnasiums, dormitories. The list could go on. A climbing wall was as unimaginable as an office of Gender Equality in 1955.

This, along with inflated administrator salaries, is one of the biggest factors in the increased cost of attending college.

6. Undisciplined faculty and students. Unless a student has a demanding part-time job, a four-year degree shouldn't take five years. Part lack of direction, part laziness and--too often--paucity of academic offerings because the faculty has decided it has better things to do than teach.

This is a lot more complicated than you make it out to be. Many students DO have part-time jobs, and I've even had students working almost full-time while also taking classes full-time. And as the cost of attending college continues to rise, this becomes a vicious cycle.

Another problem is the lack of academic preparation. I started teaching at the college level in 2004, not long after the advent of Every Child Left Behind. With each successive year (and this has been exacerbated by Race to the Bottom, I might add), I've seen students' critical thinking skills diminish, as well as their understanding of the fundamentals of knowledge--basic math, US and world history, scientific principles, etc. Many of them come into college not knowing how to learn, and they flounder their first year or two.

As for course offerings, those are determined by the administration based on student enrollment. Faculty have no say as to how many courses they teach. College administrators are demanding larger and larger class sizes to minimize costs, which means fewer course offerings. Faculty contracts stipulate how many courses (or credits) we're expected to teach, and we can't simply decide that we don't want to teach. If a professor goes on research leave, their courses are covered by someone else, usually a low-paid grad student or part-timer.

Also, it's important to remember that faculty responsibilities aren't limited to teaching. There's also research and service. The percentages vary from person to person, department to department, and institution to institution, but for most faculty teaching is between 40 and 80% of their job description. Research is essential to the profession because it furthers our knowledge and helps us keep current in our fields. (You don't want us to be the stereotypical professor lecturing from the same yellowed notes that we were using 30 years ago, do you?) The service that we perform often deals with university policy, advising students, advising student groups, engaging with the community, and serving as reviewers for conferences and journals. The time when we're not in the classroom isn't idle time, no matter what you think.

7. The ubiquity of easy student loans. More money = desire to find ways to spend more money

A bit oversimplified, but the availability of student loans is a problem.

8. Finally, the tendency of organizations to expand, to seek more power and riches unless checked. Take a look at the expansion of nation-states, or the EU.

The mandate to expand usually comes from non-academic administrators. Our board of regents has demanded that we expand so as to make up for the state budget cuts (making up the difference with student loan dollars, essentially), but most of the faculty are vehemently opposed to this. We don't have the space or resources to expand, and our town can't handle the increased population.

Were higher public education to revert back to its prior state when it was free, I'd be happy to support the idea that it be free again. Until then, I look to places like Hillsdale and to provide models for responsible higher education. Not the only models, but admirable ones.


https://www.hillsdale.edu/

https://www.berea.edu/

I'd like to see a completely different model where access to higher education is more a function of academic ability than ability to pay. As it is, even with student loans, higher education is really only accessible to those who are fortunate enough to earn scholarships (which are diminishing rapidly) and those with the financial means to attend. Many intelligent low-income students are unable to attend due to the cost, while less-qualified students from wealthier families have no trouble attending.

Many state universities were created with the intent of increasing social mobility by offering affordable higher education to anyone who was qualified. In both of the states where I've taught, the state constitution mandates that attendance at the state universities be as close to free as possible. Unfortunately, our state governments have been shirking their responsibilities, partly due to the increased availability of student loans, and partly out of hostility towards the idea of accessible higher education.

 

[Willie Boy]

Free for students.
Of course paid by the state like defense budget !!!

Even then it isn't paid by the state but by the residents. Why should I have to pay for someone else to go to college to study whatever he/she wants but more likely just party and rarely actually prepare him/herself for life in the real world? At least with defense I am paying for a margin of safety, for the Armed Forces, the equipment and all.... ready to defend this nation should we be attacked. As I said, they do not compare.

In fact, the title of this thread should be "Why should I pay for my own education when there are so many others out there who could be forced to pay for it for me?"

Just one more attempt at entitlement to what others have. Reminds me of an episode of The Twilight Zone I watched last night. The town Doctor had built himself a bomb shelter in his basement. Nobody else in the neighborhood felt the need to build one for themselves. Then a warning of incoming aircraft came. The doctor and his family started settling down into their shelter. The rest of the neighborhood started showing up, insisting on being let in. When they were informed the shelter wasn't big enough they demanded it be handed over to them.

In the same way, many of these students clamoring for free education never bothered to build their "bomb shelter" (college savings fund), nor did their parents bother to start one for them when they were children. Yet the high cost of tuition has been around since these young people were babies. They didn't bother doing anything and now they're screaming to be given what others have worked hard for.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

2ans2 hard fa human apees ons teys modern planet earth
!on ta 3!

okay

tinku

 

[Telstra]

Even then it isn't paid by the state but by the residents. Why should I have to pay for someone else to go to college to study whatever he/she wants but more likely just party and rarely actually prepare him/herself for life in the real world? At least with defense I am paying for a margin of safety, for the Armed Forces, the equipment and all.... ready to defend this nation should we be attacked. As I said, they do not compare.

In fact, the title of this thread should be "Why should I pay for my own education when there are so many others out there who could be forced to pay for it for me?"

Just one more attempt at entitlement to what others have. Reminds me of an episode of The Twilight Zone I watched last night. The town Doctor had built himself a bomb shelter in his basement. Nobody else in the neighborhood felt the need to build one for themselves. Then a warning of incoming aircraft came. The doctor and his family started settling down into their shelter. The rest of the neighborhood started showing up, insisting on being let in. When they were informed the shelter wasn't big enough they demanded it be handed over to them.

In the same way, many of these students clamoring for free education never bothered to build their "bomb shelter" (college savings fund), nor did their parents bother to start one for them when they were children. Yet the high cost of tuition has been around since these young people were babies. They didn't bother doing anything and now they're screaming to be given what others have worked hard for.

Not worth reading but LiBit put it best
"I'd like to see a completely different model where access to higher education is more a function of academic ability than ability to pay"

 

[offthewall14420]

Because not nearly enough students actually finish the degree. I can only imagine it will be worse when they're not paying.

 

[Benvolio]

Not worth reading but LiBit put it best
"I'd like to see a completely different model where access to higher education is more a function of academic ability than ability to pay"

That would often mean that the parents whose taxes pay for the school have to see their children denied admission. Would you also give preferences to minorities and foreigners to achieve diversity of color and ethnicity? Most likely it would degenerate into yet another scheme to exclude conservatievs

 

[Telstra]

Because not nearly enough students actually finish the degree. I can only imagine it will be worse when they're not paying.

Education are for the people who work for their degrees.
Not for people who buy their degrees. I've heard a lot of people are buying their degrees.
Therefore i don't really respect some of the people who got qualifications anyway.

 

[Telstra]

That would often mean that the parents whose taxes pay for the school have to see their children denied admission. Would you also give preferences to minorities and foreigners to achieve diversity of color and ethnicity? Most likely it would degenerate into yet another scheme to exclude conservatievs

If they are not good enough to study, why should they get in?
There are plenty of other jobs for them.

 

[gsdx]

That would often mean that the parents whose taxes pay for the school have to see their children denied admission. Would you also give preferences to minorities and foreigners to achieve diversity of color and ethnicity? Most likely it would degenerate into yet another scheme to exclude conservatievs

Oh, for fuck's sake! Keep your racism and politics out of this thread! Take it back to CE&P!

 

[Willie Boy]

Not worth reading but LiBit put it best
"I'd like to see a completely different model where access to higher education is more a function of academic ability than ability to pay"

Basically all that says is that those who prove themselves able to achieve get the better scholarships/grants. That's basically how it is now. Quite the opposite of what you've been saying.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

Free for students.
Of course paid by the state like defense budget !!!

Good point. Nobody ever complains about having to pay for other people's missiles, do they? But the child next door going to school on our tax money? Moocher!

 

[eastofeden]

I think everyone should have the OPPORTUNITY to have a "free" education...but I have a twist....

Since the biggest employer is the Government on every level....

For a year free school you have to take a year to work at minimum wage for the government....

Everything from the Park Service to the Social Security Office to Street Cleaning....Military...IRS...

Keep a skeleton crew of experienced admins and supervisors in every field....consider the workers apprentices...

Use the money saved to pay for the education. This includes trade school..and grad school....a year for a year...

 

[Willie Boy]

I think everyone should have the OPPORTUNITY to have a "free" education...but I have a twist....

Since the biggest employer is the Government on every level....

For a year free school you have to take a year to work at minimum wage for the government....

Everything from the Park Service to the Social Security Office to Street Cleaning....Military...IRS...

Keep a skeleton crew of experienced admins and supervisors in every field....consider the workers apprentices...

Use the money saved to pay for the education. This includes trade school..ad grad school....a year for a year...

The government is far from the biggest employer. But anyway, instead of government work at minimum wage, which would be a seriously bad idea. We've got lower level workers in there that can't handle the positions already. Firing them for kids who's minds should be focused on their field of study as opposed to the work they don't want to be doing anyway..... The system would grind to a standstill within a week.

Instead they should take part time internships in a company working in their field of study, in exchange the company would provide scholarships. Everybody wins. The company gets PT help for cheap. The student gets hands on experience in exactly what he/she is studying. The school collects REASONABLE fees and can pay the professors. Housing could be provided by the school, with a portion of the scholarship money going to help subsidize the cost. The student would fill out a grocery list on a weekly/monthly basis and the school would purchase, in bulk, with the scholarship money. The bulk shopping would help keep costs down and stretch everyone's budgets. A portion of the scholarship money could be deposited to a reloadable card that the student could use for various sundry items/gas & insurance/etc. And, upon graduation the company would have first dibs on hiring the student on permanently, already having a working relationship with the individual. It could easily lead to higher completion rates as well as higher occurrences of job placement. If the company's invested time and money in the individual they would be far more likely to hire than just throw all that money away to another company's benefit.

 

[Benvolio]

Oh, for fuck's sake! Keep your racism and politics out of this thread! Take it back to CE&P!

Most universities now practice racial and ideological selection in admissions and there is no reason to believe that will end with the free college education. It will create additional resistence to any attempt to provide free college, so liberal racism is integral to the question. .

 

[Kabluey]

Most universities now practice racial and ideological selection in admissions and there is no reason to believe that will end with the free college education. It will create additional resistence to any attempt to provide free college, so liberal racism is integral to the question. .

Think you misunderstand what liberal arts degrees are.

 

[Ksnewguy69]

Because the world needs ditch diggers to. If you are paying yourself, you will work harder for it. People getting handout tend care less if they succeed or not.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Because the world needs ditch diggers to. If you are paying yourself, you will work harder for it. People getting handout tend care less if they succeed or not.

ha
world "need" butt wickaass but no wanna tip gurd
_wot world?_
ooh world is apees human wot layars ans stuff ans tops layars yellows oooooooooooze in a head wot out a nose wens tey spacks
ans so on got bow now at tops
_bowbowbow_
see no doggy bikkee how wude tey is

ans anyway

modern world a wonda of stoopids

tinku