On Topic Discussion 2 yo boy killed by alligator at Disney

[NotHardUp1]

It is duplicitous to advertise a beach in a ridiculously hot and humid state like Florida and expect people to be content with looking at water and just suffering on the shore.

The series of events seems to have been wading, which likely intensified any gator interest, and then the natural predator mode that they use in leaping from the water to take prey from the shore. It was truly horrific. It's yet a wonder that the boy wasn't eaten.

It's also statistically true that the parents will suffer a great likelihood of divorce in the aftermath; parents who lose children are much more likely to divorce.

Seeing his photo in the Times link, it is unfathomable how grieved the parents must be. Of course any parents would be, but seeing is as moving as seeing the attack would be mortifying. Poor kid.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/16/us/alligator-child-florida-orlando-disney.html?_r=0

 

[star-warrior]

Poor child.

As a parent, losing a child would be soul destroying for me.

 

[NotHardUp1]

I have known parents after such a loss. A beautiful and gregarious young couple used to attend my church in my hometown. I was in my 20's, I think. They went to visit either his or her parents in Georgia and their pre-school aged son drowned in the grandparents' pool. The couple indeed looked for many months like they were war survivors, probably did suffer some form of PTSD.

They were not outwardly emotional, just haggard. They later divorce and sadly, he was killed in a car wreck when but in his late 30's. Tragedy upon tragedy.

And I yet remember my great grandmother's devastation when my grandfather died of a massive stroke at age 65. She said a parent should never outlive a child and she, a stalwart woman of 85, was visibly broken.

 

[Benvolio]

The way out system works, in a lawsuit, the plaintiff's lawyers will take depositions and demand production of every scrap of paper Disney has which mentions alligators and signs. Somewhere in that mess they will find a note from someone, perhaps a janitor, saying, something like: if we mention alligators, some people will be be reluctant to stay here. Then the lawyer will argue to the jury that they were more concerned with money than human lives, etc, etc. They will ask for "punitive damages" designed to punish Disney, measured by a fraction of the company's net worth. J & J got hit for 72 million for selling talcum powder. Threat of this possibility will impel the insurance company or Disney to settle quick and pay what it takes.

 

[eastofeden]

parents should always be held responsible for the conduct of their children.

this!

 

[eastofeden]

Fuck the signs..if you are bringing a child to Florida and you haven't heard about alligators...you shouldn't even leave the house with your child.

What it you went to Africa? Who would you sue if a lion came up and ate your kid?

As buzzer said...it's a food chain when you enter their territory and as sad as it is...if I was a parent I would damn sure not let my two year old kid anywhere near a body of water at any time...alligator or not...

What if he drowned?

My responsibility as a parent would never allow my two year old near a body of water unattended...period.

 

[eastofeden]

Nor does the sign state that alligators are at large, that would have guaranteed no one entering the water, or even tanning themselves on the beach, for fear of an alligator exiting the water to seize its prey. The presence of highly dangerous predators in the water should have been advertised for the tourists to take note.

The child drowned due to the intervention of an alligator seizing the child, and drowning it in preparation for its supper. Standard behaviour for an alligator seeking to satisfy its hunger pangs.

Right down the street from my house is a park and there are very clear signs that there are mountain lions there. LOTS of BEAUTIFUL mountain lions....though the sign doesn't says "LOTS"....

There are also bobcats and coyote and poisonous snakes....

YET...there are unattended kids all the fucking time....

The sick thing...it is parents like that who have no respect for much of anything who would demand we kill all of them to compensate for their own lack of parenting skills....

I do feel bad for the kids who have such irresponsible parents.

 

[sixthson]

Two years old is an amazing age. So full of adventure and daring, nearly fearless and endlessly active. They can be simultaneously wonderful and exhausting. Their enjoyment of life and discovery is a marvel to watch and experience. Every day is something new as they leap from bed ready to fill another day with LIFE.

Whenever I see parents with a young child, I like to ask them a question and their response is absolutely predictable. I'll ask them how many times a day does their child make them smile. That always gets a smile. No matter how exhausted you might be, your child's joy of life gives you delight. I don't know how many times I've marveled at my child charging full steam ahead one minute and soundly asleep in my arms the next. Or the joy of reading a book to him and seeing the curiosity and newness in his eyes even though I've his favorite story a million times, every time is new. At 2, they are changing every day, growing every day in every way. Personally, I don't know how many times I've wished it could slow down a bit because it was happening too fast. Sometimes you just want to love on your little one for a few minutes, but they are so busy with things to do and places to go. Kneeling by their beds when they are asleep, they smell so sweet from their bedtime bath, cheeks all pink, sleeping the sleep of angels, it's impossible not to be thankful for the gift of this little life that has been given to you. It is really these little things in life that bring so much joy and satisfaction.
When tragedy likes this strikes, I can't help but thing that the little one is only on loan from God. I can assure you that the pain these parents are suffering is beyond any pain they will ever experience in their lives. There will be a hole in their hearts that will forever remain, even after healing happens.

Parents are human, they make mistakes. I realize that the OP asked about placing blame, but the child and his family are lost in that kind of discussion. It becomes more important for posters to get in the last word with each other rather than to give any thought to those who are suffering. As far as I know, little is known about this family and I'm sure we will learn more as the days go by, the good and the bad about them. The little boy's death does not necessarily mean they were bad, neglectful parents, even if they let down their guards for a minute.

 

[Benvolio]

Much of law school, the law, and most litigation is concerned with determining fault, so I claim actual expertise. Disney was legally obligated to protect its guests from harm. If it cannot make the premises safe it must warn of known dangers. The sign did not warn of alligators, nor of the danger of wading or being near the water. Disney was at fault and the parents were not.

 

[eastofeden]

The little boy's death does not necessarily mean they were bad, neglectful parents, even if they let down their guards for a minute.

...and it doesn't mean that they weren't.

In my world...allowing a two year old child to be unattended by any body of water is inexcusable...period.

 

[Kahaih]

...and it doesn't mean that they weren't.

In my world...allowing a two year old child to be unattended by any body of water is inexcusable...period.

I don't understand where that comes from. Have you read/heard something that made you come to that conclusion?

From everything I've read, Lane was snatched from right before his parent's eyes. It's been reported that Lane's father even jumped in the water to try to fight the alligator off and rescue his son. Other witnesses have attested.

 

[sixthson]

...and it doesn't mean that they weren't.

In my world...allowing a two year old child to be unattended by any body of water is inexcusable...period.

That is what "not necessarily" means.

Instead of telling us about your world, try putting yourself in theirs. Blame can be placed later, but for now I'm sure their world is turned upside down.

 

[xbuzzerx]

It is duplicitous to advertise a beach in a ridiculously hot and humid state like Florida and expect people to be content with looking at water and just suffering on the shore.

Does this apply to shark attacks in the ocean for hotels which prominently advertise their beachfront status?

It doesn't, anywhere. I'm not aware of any case where it did.

It really comes down to one simple fact. The natural world is full of animals, and some of these are dangerous. The distinction between when it is or isn't an individual's decision to accept the risk, however remote, of a wild animal attack in any landscape known for wild animals, is, so far as I can tell, being applied completely arbitrarily. It is always a risk you accept, whether a given individual wants to own this responsibility or not, when you enter a natural landscape, and certainly if you do so against warning signs that particular areas are not safe or intended for recreational use.

It is this baseline expectation, that areas of the natural world should have been sterilized for your safety regardless of whether you exercised poor judgment or ignored signs and chose to enter, that results in both the outrage and the retaliatory killing of wildlife that you see in virtually all of these cases. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to go around with this expectation, least of all when they are guarding the lives of children who cannot make safe decisions.

 

[xbuzzerx]

...and it doesn't mean that they weren't.

In my world...allowing a two year old child to be unattended by any body of water is inexcusable...period.

I wouldn't put my feet in a natural body of water at 9:30pm at night near signs saying not to go in.

I couldn't imagine letting a kid under my supervision do it.

 

[Benvolio]

I wouldn't put my feet in a natural body of water at 9:30pm at night near signs saying not to go in.

I couldn't imagine letting a kid under my supervision do it.

Why would you not? What would yu fear?

 

[peeonme]

Much of law school, the law, and most litigation is concerned with determining fault, so I claim actual expertise. Disney was legally obligated to protect its guests from harm. If it cannot make the premises safe it must warn of known dangers. The sign did not warn of alligators, nor of the danger of wading or being near the water. Disney was at fault and the parents were not.

You are correct.
As to the bad or neglectful aspect that has been presented, these folks weren't in bed fucking or smoking grass while their child played in traffic.
They didn't leave their child in a locked car on a 90 degree day.
They paid big bucks to take their precious child on a wonderful trip that ended in tragedy, a tragedy that could have been avoided if
Disney had placed proper warning signs telling it's guests to stay back a number of feet from the waters edge because of the dangers of the alligators.

 

[luckynumbah7]

^That's not all Disney or the tourists would've had to have done. When you're dealing with wildlife 'keeping your distance' is only the beginning. Learning about an area before you travel is part of it, as is learning that the wildlife dangers where you're traveling to are likely not the same as where you live. You can be neglectful doing something you really should've and still not be a malicious, horrible parent/human being. But the actions done (or lack thereof, no matter how much money was spent it doesn't replace ten minutes of research) was a stupid one. And other people's stupidity certainly played into it, along with Disney's.

Apparently just bunches of incredibly stupid fucks, some undoubtably having children, kept feeding the gators and Disney did nothing.

No one on earth is gonna convince me that feeding a wild animal in a way that associates you with food is a good idea. This isn't the occasional bit o'veggies or greenery you left near the fence after dinner so the possum that makes his rounds there in the evening doesn't have to hunt so hard in a city. And they ignore my ass in any case as I don't stick around to teach them to associate me with food.

"Don't feed the fucking gators" is near the top of the list because they'll get desensitized to human's presence. As shown here, according to previous articles posted about their boldness. If people were feeding gators there would've been an accident like this sooner rather than later no matter how far on the beach one was standing.

 

[Benvolio]

Going further, I think the lawyers will discover that the primary reason for the no swimming was because of the alligators. A drop off in a lake, especially a man made lake can be cured by hauling in sand, and this is an enormously expensive resort.

 

[peeonme]

@luckynumbah7,
You make some good points, I am sure that the parents read all of the "sell" job that they found on the net and I would bank on Disney not mentioning the gators.

I would be more prone to read up on the dangers of indigenous species if I were to be staying in a national park as a camper, one just doesn't take the dangers of wild life into account when staying at a resort.

Hind sight is 20/20, this was a terrible tragedy, but I would not say the parents were neglectful, if they were aware of the danger of the gators and let the child near the water it would be neglect.

Your point of feeding the alligators was spot on, they begin to see the spot as a place to eat then wait for food.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Going further, I think the lawyers will discover that the primary reason for the no swimming was because of the alligators. A drop off in a lake, especially a man made lake can be cured by hauling in sand, and this is an enormously expensive resort.

Why would you haul sand when that could potentially make it easier for the gators?