On-Topic 5 Nations Condemn Israel's Settlement" Plan

[palemale]

I differ somewhat from Palemale in that I do NOT believe that most of the opposition to Israeli policies are anti-semitic. It's easy to dig up groups that hate Jews and of course they're going to hate Israel too. But that's quite different from saying much or most of the opposition to the things Israel does as a nation just steeps out of people hating Jews.

The real test would be to take a given thing Israel has done... whether it was bombing Lybia and utterly wrecking its airport or bulldozing Palestinian houses, and picture any first world country doing that to its neighbor-- who would be defending it?

The UK never received near universal condemnation for it's rule in Northern Ireland, and they committed some pretty grotesque, anti-democratic acts there. How much condemnation has Russia received for its aggression against Georgia? How about China's continued annexation of Tibet? The difference is that Britain, Russia and China are powerful countries, and they are not run by an ethnic group that has historically suffered persecution in nearly every country that they have lived.

I did say much, not most, criticism of Israel reflects anti-Semitic attitudes. I didn't mean to imply that most criticism fell into that category.

 

[cgymike]

The UK never received near universal condemnation for it's rule in Northern Ireland, and they committed some pretty grotesque, anti-democratic acts there. How much condemnation has Russia received for its aggression against Georgia? How about China's continued annexation of Tibet? The difference is that Britain, Russia and China are powerful countries, and they are not run by an ethnic group that has historically suffered persecution in nearly every country that they have lived.

I did say much, not most, criticism of Israel reflects anti-Semitic attitudes. I didn't mean to imply that most criticism fell into that category.

Ulster is a province...what are u talking about "grotesque" acts committed there? It was a security issue and what was done had to be done mostly to restore order from the act of IRA troublemakers and other elements like the criminal murderous Sinn Féin led by thug adams.. Why would the UK be condemned for that? Simply no comparison and not on a level with the Palestinian issue.

 

[HenryReardon]

Extreme would be lining up armored bulldozers backed by tanks and shoving all of Gaza into Egypt.

What a good idea.

 

[xbuzzerx]

What a good idea.

Case in point lol.

For all the discussion of Israel - antisemitism, there's a fantastic amount of pure zealotry with absolutely no proportion, objectivity or critical thought of any kind on the pro-Israel side that doesn't get anywhere near as much airtime as it ought.

 

[Kulindahr]

Case in point lol.

For all the discussion of Israel - antisemitism, there's a fantastic amount of pure zealotry with absolutely no proportion, objectivity or critical thought of any kind on the pro-Israel side that doesn't get anywhere near as much airtime as it ought.

LOL

The badly misnamed Reardon chimed in like flies drawn to a trash can.

My closest proposal to actually doing that would be to make a deal with Egypt to build new, better housing for all the Gazans in the Sinai plus a $5k credit card to order things for those houses, with of course free moving.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Israel has been to nice?

I guess they being super nice when they shit all over the Oslo Agreement, when they refuse to allow people to live a free life without questions on their movements, when they drop bombs in massively populated areas a say it was a targeted strike?

Yes, we would all love Palestine to be a peace loving state that respects the rights to all to exist, but they can and will only do this when they are given the right to exist for themselves.

"You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all, but I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.” Real effing nice

The Israelis must occupy the Palestinians because of the fact that the Palestinians want their destruction and have allowed Palestininans to live free in Israel. They can not let terrorists live free though. Also the reason they have to drop bombs in populated areas is because Hamas uses heavily populated areas as shields trying to play on the Israelis compassion. They use their own civilians as shileds.

Next Israel has been willing time and time again to make peace with Palestine and give them their own state but the Palestinians reject this because they want the destruction of Israel and all Jews. Plus the Israelis try hard not to kill civilians where as the Palestinans revel in killing civilians.

On your next assertion the reason that your quote fails is because the reason the Israelis are taking land from the Palestinians is because they have from day one tried to destroy Israel. Israel has also not starved them either. Hamas does that because Israel has sent numerous aid and support there all to have it hijacked by Hamas plus as I mentioned the Israelis unlike Hamas try to to kill mothers, fathers and children and only imprison those who deserve it. The Palestinians are to blame because they have started this fight from day one. Israel is merely trying to defend itself. As I mentioned before the Palestinians have no right to this land. It was land previously owned by foreign rulers and it was only when they were under Jewish rule did the Muslims have a problem. Israel has been too nice by sending aid to Palestine and trying peace whenever they can. However Hamas clearly does not want peace and never have from the beginning. It is these terrorists who are at fault for shooting rockets and civilians, using their own civilians as shields and for over all being terrorist aggressors. However your Liberal Islamophilia makes you side with the gay murderoring, Nazi terrorist aggressors over the only free, secular and democratic country in the Middle East. Everytime a Pally commits a terrorist act or cuts the faces off a gay person I am sure they think of their useful liberals who support their terrorist junta.

This is why no one will be capable of having a rational discussion with you on the topic. If what we've seen is Israel being "too nice" I have no idea what you think "moderate" or "extreme" would be, but it sounds like you'd approve it no matter what was involved.

Moderate is what Israel is doing. Being firm with the Palestinians but also trying for peace. Extreme would be something like genocide. I do not approve of all of Israel's actions but [Text: Removed by Moderator] I don't side with the people who would torture and murder me.

Significant percentages of the Israeli public would disagree with you that Israel has been too nice to Palestinians. You are thinking about this problem without any analytical coherence.

I strongly support the State of Israel and a two state solution. I think much of the criticism of Israel is animated by anti-semitism. Nevertheless, I think Netanyahu is a dangerous, self-serving egomaniac who is harming Israel and it's relations with its allies. The latest announcement of new housing in the West Bank helps Netanyahu in his re-election bid because it solidifies his support among the right wing of the Israeli public.

By the way, what do you think the base of the religious parties' of Israel think about the rights of gays and lesbians. Have you been to Israel. The are neighborhoods in Jerusalem where a woman would be spit or have rocks thrown at her if she didn't have sleeves down to her wrists. How do you think they'd react to two men kissing or holding hands on the street? That is who Netanyahu is trying to curry favor with. Gays will always fare better in Israel than in Muslim countries. But no thanks to Netanyahu and his religious right allies.

I am aware that there is hatred against religious Jews against women and gays. Judaism like Christianity and Islam are sexist, homophobic, racist and barbaric religions. However Israel is a secular, democratic and free country. It is not ruled by Jewish law anymore then the US is ruled by Christian law in spite of some right wingers who wish to change that.

I really fear that Israel is going to dig itself further and further into this right wing position as the ground swell of nations are coming around to the idea of Palestine as a independent nation.

I do worry that many will see criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic, I may not have shown it much on here yet but I am an antifa and have been involved in fighting antisemitism as much as possible. I mean I am of Jewish decent.

I do really hope we can head towards peace and co-existence soon. I do believe in a one state solution, but in the PFLP sense, and I that workers of both "nations" will rise to create a worker state.

Yeah you are an anti fa and yet you support fascist Hamas in their anti semitism. It seems like most Liberals fascism and anti semitism are suddenly OK when it comes from Muslims. Hell you were ignorant about the Palestinian hatred of gays!

 

[Mariatenebre]

The assigning of blame is utterly pointless. Both sides have done reprehensible shit - yes the Israelis were perfectly fine with terrorism when they were using it targeting the British - yes Hamas is an evil cabal of power mad zealots, where does all that righteous indignation get you?

Nowhere. Maria doesn't want to talk about extreme Jews and Christians and Muslims hating gays in exactly the same way for exactly the same reasons - pro-Palestine doesn't want to talk about terrorism - pro Israel doesn't want to talk about what amounts to indirect ethnic cleansing - because everyone thinks they are justified because the other side is worse.

It's like the fourth grade, and if there are people who think that criticizing Israel the nation state in the middle east means hating anyone who is ethnically Jewish living in NYC - they need to just grow the fuck up.

I have always acknowledged that Christians and Jews hate gays as well. Remember I am a Pagan and anti Abrahamic. However I also know that Israel is not ran by Jewish law. However I do realized that Islam is a violent and cruel religion.

If criticism of Israel is seen as anti-semitic, then we can just dismiss criticism of Palestine as Islamophobia.

First of all Islamophobia does not exist. It is a false dichotomy. A religion that is homophobic has no right to claim a special phobia for themselves. It is not wrong to hate bigoted ideologies. Islamophobia is as stupid a word as Christophobia, Naziphobia or Communistphobia. It is perfectly acceptable and normal to hate evil ideologies. However much of the criticism of Israel and support of Palestine is anti semetic. For to support an anti semetic state makes one anti semetic.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I have always acknowledged that Christians and Jews hate gays as well. Remember I am a Pagan and anti Abrahamic. However I also know that Israel is not ran by Jewish law. However I do realized that Islam is a violent and cruel religion.


First of all Islamophobia does not exist. It is a false dichotomy. A religion that is homophobic has no right to claim a special phobia for themselves. It is not wrong to hate bigoted ideologies. Islamophobia is as stupid a word as Christophobia, Naziphobia or Communistphobia. It is perfectly acceptable and normal to hate evil ideologies. However much of the criticism of Israel and support of Palestine is anti semetic. For to support an anti semetic state makes one anti semetic.

Oh this point you are definitely dead wrong. The rest is a bunch of extremely biased opinion that I will not try to dissuade you from because I can see it would be pointless. But if you have any Muslim friends (it sounds extremely clear you don't) and you see the way they get treated at an airport or security checkpoint, the concept that there isn't Islamophobia will disappear. Even just being of a Middle Eastern background is sufficient, regardless of religious status.

My sister's good friend (who is Persian) went to grad school in the same part of CA where I was in school, and we took the same flight back after a holiday one time. She's American born, American raised, etc. Not only was her security process about 25 minutes longer than mine but they dismantled and destroyed-- destroyed--- her cellphone. I mean I guess in case she was planning on blowing us up with some type of explosive in her phone I guess? Who knows. She was pretty much silent the entire flight after that. And that was one incident. I can't imagine that sort of experience being your normal, everyday life on a daily basis.

Just an anecdote, of course. But the concept that people don't look at Middle Eastern people and begin making assumptions about religion (Muslim) and danger (terrorism) is false. It does happen. Paint Palestinians all you like as dangerous Jew-hating people who want to destroy Israel and 'deserve' to be under a firm Israeli iron fist if that's what you like, but you kid yourself that Islamophobia hits only extremists, only terrorists, only radicals, or only Palestinians.

 

[TX-Beau]

The majority of Muslims aren't even Arab.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Oh this point you are definitely dead wrong. The rest is a bunch of extremely biased opinion that I will not try to dissuade you from because I can see it would be pointless. But if you have any Muslim friends (it sounds extremely clear you don't) and you see the way they get treated at an airport or security checkpoint, the concept that there isn't Islamophobia will disappear. Even just being of a Middle Eastern background is sufficient, regardless of religious status.

My sister's good friend (who is Persian) went to grad school in the same part of CA where I was in school, and we took the same flight back after a holiday one time. She's American born, American raised, etc. Not only was her security process about 25 minutes longer than mine but they dismantled and destroyed-- destroyed--- her cellphone. I mean I guess in case she was planning on blowing us up with some type of explosive in her phone I guess? Who knows. She was pretty much silent the entire flight after that. And that was one incident. I can't imagine that sort of experience being your normal, everyday life on a daily basis.

Just an anecdote, of course. But the concept that people don't look at Middle Eastern people and begin making assumptions about religion (Muslim) and danger (terrorism) is false. It does happen. Paint Palestinians all you like as dangerous Jew-hating people who want to destroy Israel and 'deserve' to be under a firm Israeli iron fist if that's what you like, but you kid yourself that Islamophobia hits only extremists, only terrorists, only radicals, or only Palestinians.

I am actually fine with people profiling people based on the ideologies they hold. Islam is a terrorist religion so therefore adherents of this religion should be held to scruteny. Just like dealing with Nazis, Communists, believing Christians etc. Your ideology is not a trait you are born with but rather is a code of ethics that determines your morality as well as what actions are deemed acceptable. Now I am against racial profiling because unlike religious or ideological profiling your race or nationality does not determine your ethics but rather is merely the ethnic group you belong to. Besides you don't see Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, Atheist Arabs or Persians etc blowing themselves up or doing very many terrorist attacks.

Over all while there is discrimination against Muslims and discrimination against the races of some Muslims. Over all Muslims are catered to. Many companies and places serve Halal only food, in some parts of Europe there are Muslim only days at pools, and some places even deny free speech by criminalizing negative speech against Islam.

Also I do not think that all Palestinians are radical Muslims or Jew haters. However Palestine is most certainly a radical Muslim controlled area and Jew hating is sanctioned.

The majority of Muslims aren't even Arab.

This is true, the majority of of Muslims are South Asians. However Islam does support Arab superiority in the Hadith.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Believing Christians and Communists are not subjected to any special scrutiny of any kind when travelling or entering public places or anything else. Nor are Nazis though I don't know how you'd tell ANY of these categories by looking at someone.

As far as I'm concerned you hacksawed the legs off your own moral high horse when you basically blathered at us all calling us self-hating gays for not condemning Palestine when you then defend racial profiling.

Have a nice day.

 

[TX-Beau]

I am actually fine with people profiling people based on the ideologies they hold....

Which is the lovely standard employed by the Spanish Inquisition - you're in some fine company with that philosophy - we don't persecute you for what you DO, we persecute you for WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

CRUSADE!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mariatenebre]

Believing Christians and Communists are not subjected to any special scrutiny of any kind when travelling or entering public places or anything else. Nor are Nazis though I don't know how you'd tell ANY of these categories by looking at someone.

As far as I'm concerned you hacksawed the legs off your own moral high horse when you basically blathered at us all calling us self-hating gays for not condemning Palestine when you then defend racial profiling.

Have a nice day.

What the Hell, I never defended racial profiling. If you read my post you can see that I am against racial profiling but for ideological profiling.

Which might I add I think that Communists and Nazis as well as believing Christians should be subjugated to these things as well.

Which is the lovely standard employed by the Spanish Inquisition - you're in some fine company with that philosophy - we don't persecute you for what you DO, we persecute you for WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

CRUSADE!!!!!!!!!

I am not wanting Muslims killed for the views they hold as the Spanish did. However I certainly hold that we should when it comes to security profile people based on their ideological preferences. If someone is a Nazi and say a a Stormfront member who openly supports murdering non whites and supports white supremacist terrorists such as David Lane or Matt Hale then I fully support profiling this person. Likewise with the extreme beliefs in Islam people should take special care in dealing with Muslims especially those who may appear moderate but have links to terrorist organizations. Islam is more then a religion, it is a political ideology similar to Communism or Nazism. If a person believes in fighting against disbelievers where ever you find them as the Quran tells them then that person is a security risk. I am not saying that we should persecute them, murder them or hurt them, however we should be keen on what their ideology says and the actions that said religion mandates. You would not have a problem if Neo Nazis were profiled for their beliefs. So there fore why do you object when Islam is done the same by it's adherents. Islam is a threat to all of the world and the Quran, Hadith and Mohammad encouraged Muslims to conquer the world for Allah. Now while note every Muslim believes in these things just like every Nazi dosen't believe in violence there are many who do and our security should be aware of this. Give Muslims equal rights and freedoms, I am fine with that. However also realize the evil things that Islam advocates and remember this when dealing with Islam's adherents.

 

[TX-Beau]

Don't project that crazy on the rest of us, it belongs to you. Neo-Nazis may be ignorant asshats, but until THEY COMMIT A CRIME, it's not illegal to be and ignorant asshat. In the world you would make, the GOV would be keeping files of the "profiled," legally, and people would be informing on their neighbors because they're Catholic.

And once we grant the government this kind of power and accept that ugly philosophy, who gets to say what's an extreme belief?

Because it won't be you. You'd find yourself swiftly on the list of the profiled.

What you're saying is inherently repressive, and is a time honored tool of the fascist state.

If you can't see that, you are seriously myopic about your own prejudices - just like a fascist.

 

[xbuzzerx]

You're going to profile Muslims "but not by racial profiling." HMM.

How do you propose to do that? Maybe make them wear a Muslim emblem on their clothing?

Does that remind you of anything?

 

[Mariatenebre]

Don't project that crazy on the rest of us, it belongs to you. Neo-Nazis may be ignorant asshats, but until THEY COMMIT A CRIME, it's not illegal to be and ignorant asshat. In the world you would make, the GOV would be keeping files of the "profiled," legally, and people would be informing on their neighbors because they're Catholic.

And once we grant the government this kind of power and accept that ugly philosophy, who gets to say what's an extreme belief?

Because it won't be you. You'd find yourself swiftly on the list of the profiled.

What you're saying is inherently repressive, and is a time honored tool of the fascist state.

If you can't see that, you are seriously myopic about your own prejudices - just like a fascist.

I don't want to make it illegal to be a ignorant asshat but ignorant asshats who advocate violence are a special kind of asshat. These asshats become potential risks for if they decide to enact their ideas then many lives will be lost. The only criteria for an extreme belief is simple. Does your ideology advocate violence against innocent civilians. You can have weird or fucked up ideas but as soon as you start advocating death and destruction then there is a problem.

Also I don't know if you are aware but the government keeps tabs on Neo Nazi groups all of the time. In fact Neo Nazis are notoriously paranoid of cops. Hell that is how Matt Hale was cought. He was profiled and they used a police informant to get him to admit his crimes. The government keeps tabs on alot of extremist groups.

You're going to profile Muslims "but not by racial profiling." HMM.

How do you propose to do that? Maybe make them wear a Muslim emblem on their clothing?

Does that remind you of anything?

No I don't want them to wear a Muslim emblem on their clothing or be discriminated in anyway. However when it comes to security procedures Muslims should be checked to see if they hold the radical views expressed in their religion. If they do not then they should have no problem and be treated well. However we need to realize that Islam advocates many ghastly things. So when dealing with members of this religion we need to make sure that they don't believe or will not follow the evil commands of this religion. You still haven't answered my question though. Would you not agree that a Neo Nazi who believes in a violent overthrow of the United States and who openly support white supremacist terrorists is a security risk. Then if a Muslim believes in a violent overthrowing of the government and supports Islamic terrorists then we need to be aware of this.

 

[Kulindahr]

Don't project that crazy on the rest of us, it belongs to you. Neo-Nazis may be ignorant asshats, but until THEY COMMIT A CRIME, it's not illegal to be and ignorant asshat. In the world you would make, the GOV would be keeping files of the "profiled," legally, and people would be informing on their neighbors because they're Catholic.

And once we grant the government this kind of power and accept that ugly philosophy, who gets to say what's an extreme belief?

Because it won't be you. You'd find yourself swiftly on the list of the profiled.

What you're saying is inherently repressive, and is a time honored tool of the fascist state.

If you can't see that, you are seriously myopic about your own prejudices - just like a fascist.

She probably wants a state where the head is an absolute autocrat -- you know, like Ramses.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't want to make it illegal to be a ignorant asshat but ignorant asshats who advocate violence are a special kind of asshat. These asshats become potential risks for if they decide to enact their ideas then many lives will be lost. The only criteria for an extreme belief is simple. Does your ideology advocate violence against innocent civilians. You can have weird or fucked up ideas but as soon as you start advocating death and destruction then there is a problem.

Also I don't know if you are aware but the government keeps tabs on Neo Nazi groups all of the time. In fact Neo Nazis are notoriously paranoid of cops. Hell that is how Matt Hale was cought. He was profiled and they used a police informant to get him to admit his crimes. The government keeps tabs on alot of extremist groups.

Seems you'd be caught in your own roundup -- you advocate a lot of violence.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I don't want to make it illegal to be a ignorant asshat but ignorant asshats who advocate violence are a special kind of asshat.

We have a word for them, they're called terrorists.

You catch them with intelligence networks and good police work, not by stopping every single person from an entire region of the world and strip searching them.

Perhaps you believe the U.S. airport security system (which has repeatedly been proven ineffective and wasteful) applied larger and grander on a global scale is the correct solution?

 

[Mariatenebre]

Seems you'd be caught in your own roundup -- you advocate a lot of violence.

I don't support violence against anyone except those that commit violence and hurt other people. You will never hear me say even about groups I despise that they should be murdered or killed. There is a difference to wanting to stop people who are committing violence and put them away and advocating violence against innocent civilians. I have never advocated such thing.