On-Topic 5 Nations Condemn Israel's Settlement" Plan

[TX-Beau]

Jews in Israel were perfectly fine with terrorism when the British were ruling them.

Maria, you don't know any Native Americans do you. I do, they don't talk about the rez like that, they want their continent back.

 

[Rolyo85]

Next I am aware of the poverty in many Native American lands however they still have their own lands and many of them do thrive there. Native Americans are granted by law full equal rights. Jews are certainly not granted equal rights by Hamas. In fact Hamas has in it's charter the complete genocide of Jews.

No. Native Americans do NOT own land AS A PEOPLE. They have NO country of their own, just American territory where they have been FORCEFULLY settled. Repeating a lie won't make it true.

 

[TX-Beau]

It's a huge temptation to overlook the whole fracking thing just because we would no longer need to give a fuck about the Middle East.

 

[TX-Beau]

No. Native Americans do NOT own land AS A PEOPLE. They have NO country of their own, just American territory where they have been FORCEFULLY settled. Repeating a lie won't make it true.

Reservations, and their mineral rights, are held in Trust for Indians, administered by the Fed. They are NOT in control of their reservations. Every Indian in the country is technically a ward of the state.

 

[Rolyo85]

Before the founding of Israel, "Palestinian" was not a people, nor was it for quite a while afterward. The word meant everyone living there, whether Arab, Persian, Jew, or whoever.

And Jews owned no land at all, so point is moot. It's all European guilt plus delegating a purely Western problem to the Middle East.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Jews in Israel were perfectly fine with terrorism when the British were ruling them.

Maria, you don't know any Native Americans do you. I do, they don't talk about the rez like that, they want their continent back.

In actuality my mother married a man who is very visibly has Native American blood and my half brother brother has visible Native features as well. I also have Native American ancestry though I am predominantly white.

No. Native Americans do NOT own land AS A PEOPLE. They have NO country of their own, just American territory where they have been FORCEFULLY settled. Repeating a lie won't make it true.

Do Native Americans have a right to by and own land here in the US. They most certainly do. I never said they had a country of their own however they do own their own territories. Which might I add I would be in favor of giving Natives more land.

And Jews owned no land at all, so point is moot. It's all European guilt plus delegating a purely Western problem to the Middle East.

However Jews did have this land in the past before they driven out. The goal was to give the Jews a homeland free of persecution. Plus antisemitism was not merely a Western problem. Antisemetism in the Muslim world was around since Islam's very birth.

 

[TX-Beau]

Yeah well I know a bunch of actual ethnic N.A. who grew up on reservations and what they say bears no resemblance to what you say.

You are getting slammed because you have a huge glaring double standard.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Yeah well I know a bunch of actual ethnic N.A. who grew up on reservations and what they say bears no resemblance to what you say.

You are getting slammed because you have a huge glaring double standard.

I never said that all Native Americans had it easy in America. In fact in many cases they are treated badly. However under the official law of the United States you can not discriminate against anyone on the basis of race and that includes Native Americans. However it is a lie to say that Native Americans have absolutely no power or influence in America.

 

[TX-Beau]

You approve of the things that European Jews brought to Isreal from the west - which is pretty much everything about civil liberties, but you've never asked yourself what the Jews who never left thought about that - you'll find it's little different from what you hate about Arab cultures.

Humanist Ideals came from Europe, not semetic ethnicities or religions.

But you also excuse Israeli aggression because of your own personal issues.

It's possible to dislike the things both sides have done wrong without being the kind of partisan you seem to be.

 

[TX-Beau]

I never said that all Native Americans had it easy in America. In fact in many cases they are treated badly. However under the official law of the United States you can not discriminate against anyone on the basis of race and that includes Native Americans. However it is a lie to say that Native Americans have absolutely no power or influence in America.

Really? How many N.A. officials are there? And I mean the real ethnic Indian kind, not just white people who like to claim some Indian "ancestry."

 

[TX-Beau]

It's a huge temptation to overlook the whole fracking thing just because we would no longer need to give a fuck about the Middle East.

Just because it bears repeating.

 

[Mariatenebre]

You approve of the things that European Jews brought to Isreal from the west - which is pretty much everything about civil liberties, but you've never asked yourself what the Jews who never left thought about that - you'll find it's little different from what you hate about Arab cultures.

Humanist Ideals came from Europe, not semetic ethnicities or religions.

But you also excuse Israeli aggression because of your own personal issues.

It's possible to dislike the things both sides have done wrong without being the kind of partisan you seem to be.

In actuality many of the Pagan ideologies before Christianity, Judaism and Islam considerably had many Western values like religious tolerance and even being pro gay. Pagan Arabia before Islam for instance was very pro female, pro gay and religiously tolerant.

Also I have never said that Israel was 100% perfect in it's dealings with Palestinians. However over all they atleast try to attone for their mistakes and wish for peace. The Pallys or atleast many of the Muslim Pallys want the opposite.

Really? How many N.A. officials are there? And I mean the real ethnic Indian kind, not just white people who like to claim some Indian "ancestry."

I don't know the exact number of Native American officials in the U.S. however as I said before I support Native American culture in many ways over European Protestant culture. However I do know that many Native Americans have done well for themselves and it is illegal to discriminate against Natives in the law even if some officials do it anyway.

 

[TX-Beau]

I will agree that Abrahamic religions have this tendency to Homophobia, Misogyny, and Orthodoxy. But I don't necessarily agree that the Pagan world was so easy live and let live as all that.

That sounds suspiciously New Age revisionist - don't get me wrong, I'd rather have the "New Age," over the orthodox of anyone who reads the Bible, but that doesn't make what they say actually historically accurate.

 

[Mariatenebre]

I will agree that Abrahamic religions have this tendency to Homophobia, Misogyny, and Orthodoxy. But I don't necessarily agree that the Pagan world was so easy live and let live as all that.

That sounds suspiciously New Age revisionist - don't get me wrong, I'd rather have the "New Age," over the orthodox of anyone who reads the Bible, but that doesn't make what they say actually historically accurate.

I am in no way a revisionist and I will agree that Pagan society had it's problems. For instance in the Middle Eastern religions human sacrifice was present and in some places very common and that includes the Biblical religions since they came from the Middle Eastern religions. Many Pagan societies were sexist such as the Romans, Greeks, Chinese etc. However their sexism though present certainly was unlike the virulent hatred of all things feminine in the Abrahamic religions. Plus in most of the Pagan world gays had a fairly high status. Plus most didn't care what God you worshipped or what tradition you were from although in some places there was a hatred of Atheism such as in Greece, although there were certain religions which were Atheistic such as the Buddhists. So again Paganism wasn't perfect but I will take those societies anyday over the overt insanity of the Abrahamic and Zoroastrian religions.

Plus I should add one thing that alot of the sexism in the ancient world was more of a cultural thing then a religious thing. I could give the example of Greece, in Greece women were not allowed to vote and could not hold certain offices, although they could become priestesses and priestesses were equal to priests. Point in fact women warriors were looked down upon even though their patron Goddess was Athena a Warrior Goddess who was Zeus's favorite child and his equal. So on the religious level men and women were quite equal but on the secular level men held dominion. It is honestly the reverse in our society where as women are completely equal on the secular level but in our dominant religion Christianity men are viewed as superior to women. In this country you can not legally deny a woman any position in this country. The only position women are denied secularly is to fight on the front lines which is a load of bullshit because women have been fighting in wars and on the front lines for as long as there have been women. However in general women can be anything she wants on the secular level. However in our dominant religion Christianity, women can not be priests, preachers and in many places hold offices in Church. In my father's Church women are not allowed into buisness meetings as a matter of fact.

 

[Kulindahr]

And Jews owned no land at all, so point is moot. It's all European guilt plus delegating a purely Western problem to the Middle East.

The Jews there owned land like anyone else.

 

[xbuzzerx]

They didn't steal anything to begin with. Israel always had a strong Jewish presence even after many Jews were expelled by the Arabs. The land was given to the Jews because they desperately needed a homeland as well as to give Jews in the area a place to live free from Arab persecution.

Correction. Jews needed a homeland and a place to live free from European persecution. I don't know what history books you read but the holocaust was not carried out by Arabs or Palestinians. So Europe basically exported its racial intolerance problem to a region of the world many Jews hadn't set foot in for a millenium and now your whole argument basically is "well that's their land anyway they have rights to it and the Palestinians don't." And that's utterly arbitrary. Why weren't the Jews given a big hunk of Germany for their "homeland" after the war? Yes, you are out on a limb somehow trying to claim this is different from whites showing up in Plymouth Rock and saying what would be later turned into the "Discovery Doctrine" which continues to be the core spinal cord of most United States possession law which essentially says: we as a Christian people upon finding this non-Christian land gained pre-eminent right to it over the people already living there.

And no you can't just say "oh well that was in the past" because Discovery Doctrine was happily defended and praised in legal reasonings by the late Supreme Court Justice Rehnquist who died only a few years ago. And it remains an integral component of the legal reasoning behind the taking of Native American land and the sovereignty of the United States over the land it owns in the continental U.S.

First of all there are many Muslim homelands. Over 50 as a matter of fact, so these Pallys could easily go to one of them.

Well white anthropologists say that Native Americans came across the Bering Strait from Asia so how come when Europeans showed up Indians didn't just move back to Asia? C'mon.

Native Americans live on reservations we forced them onto after stealing thier land.

They don't live in "peace and equality," anymore than anyone else and quite a bit less than most - reservations have huge substance abuse, poverty, and unemployment issues, they "rule," so long as you define that by saying that Indian laws don't apply to anyone but Indians - even on the reservations.

Arabs and Jews are COUSINS, and all of them have been wandering around Palestine forever, fighting over that little strip of desert forever.

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The US supports Israel because, well, why do we support Israel?

OH YEAH, it's full of emigre Europeans. Israel is far more western than Arab cultures because of all the Jews from the west who moved there.

Correct. There have been many controversial cases of non-Indians going onto reservations in drunken crime sprees and then Indian laws can't touch them-- the U.S. Supreme Court has always been very preferential in making sure that tribal laws have no jurisdiction over non-Indian U.S. citizens, which ironically creates exactly the sort of lawless conditions on reservations that whites always condemned Indians for in their perception. Additionally tribes have no ability to demand investigations into Federal felony level crimes on their land, if there is a rape or murder all they can do is request investigation, they can't demand files be charged or anything else, and a reservation might have like, 1 or 2 FBI agents assigned to it who have to handle an enormous case load. The end result is that a huge number of rapes and murders go uninvestigated and unprosecuted.

Before the founding of Israel, "Palestinian" was not a people, nor was it for quite a while afterward. The word meant everyone living there, whether Arab, Persian, Jew, or whoever.

Kinda like a Rwanda situation where the Hutus and Tutsis didn't actually exist until the Europeans came and separated them into castes for their social/economic purposes?

No. Native Americans do NOT own land AS A PEOPLE. They have NO country of their own, just American territory where they have been FORCEFULLY settled. Repeating a lie won't make it true.

Correct. Congress has plenary power over Native American affairs. That means that all Native American rights and laws exist at the pleasure of the superior power of U.S. Congress which can break, change, abrogate or ignore agreements at any time without the consent of the tribes, and has done so many times.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Correction. Jews needed a homeland and a place to live free from European persecution. I don't know what history books you read but the holocaust was not carried out by Arabs or Palestinians. So Europe basically exported its racial intolerance problem to a region of the world many Jews hadn't set foot in for a millenium and now your whole argument basically is "well that's their land anyway they have rights to it and the Palestinians don't." And that's utterly arbitrary. Why weren't the Jews given a big hunk of Germany for their "homeland" after the war? Yes, you are out on a limb somehow trying to claim this is different from whites showing up in Plymouth Rock and saying what would be later turned into the "Discovery Doctrine" which continues to be the core spinal cord of most United States possession law which essentially says: we as a Christian people upon finding this non-Christian land gained pre-eminent right to it over the people already living there.

And no you can't just say "oh well that was in the past" because Discovery Doctrine was happily defended and praised in legal reasonings by the late Supreme Court Justice Rehnquist who died only a few years ago. And it remains an integral component of the legal reasoning behind the taking of Native American land and the sovereignty of the United States over the land it owns in the continental U.S.



Well white anthropologists say that Native Americans came across the Bering Strait from Asia so how come when Europeans showed up Indians didn't just move back to Asia? C'mon.



Correct. There have been many controversial cases of non-Indians going onto reservations in drunken crime sprees and then Indian laws can't touch them-- the U.S. Supreme Court has always been very preferential in making sure that tribal laws have no jurisdiction over non-Indian U.S. citizens, which ironically creates exactly the sort of lawless conditions on reservations that whites always condemned Indians for in their perception. Additionally tribes have no ability to demand investigations into Federal felony level crimes on their land, if there is a rape or murder all they can do is request investigation, they can't demand files be charged or anything else, and a reservation might have like, 1 or 2 FBI agents assigned to it who have to handle an enormous case load. The end result is that a huge number of rapes and murders go uninvestigated and unprosecuted.



Kinda like a Rwanda situation where the Hutus and Tutsis didn't actually exist until the Europeans came and separated them into castes for their social/economic purposes?



Correct. Congress has plenary power over Native American affairs. That means that all Native American rights and laws exist at the pleasure of the superior power of U.S. Congress which can break, change, abrogate or ignore agreements at any time without the consent of the tribes, and has done so many times.

Muslims have been persecuting Jews for as long as Islam has existed. The Mufti of Jerusalem even aided Hitler in the Holocaust. Jews were subjected to inferior status as dhimmis or killed off by Muslims.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html

Also you are wrong again Jews always had a presence in the land known as Israel and it was their land before the Arabs came and drove many of them out. This piece of land was given to them for one to give Jews in the Middle East and across the world a place to live free of persecution. There is a clear difference between this and the discovery doctrine because Palestinians were given their own land as well as many Palestinians who lived freely in Israel. Native peoples for the most part were never given this right.

Also I do know about many of the injustices against Native peoples and I certainly would support giving them more power, and revoking the discovery doctrine, and giving them the ability to prosecute offenders in their areas.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Long story short Mariatenbre: the conflict between the U.S. and tribes never ended because both sides embraced a respect for life, gay rights, or whatever other nonsense you are using to say the Israel-Palestine conflict should be treated "differently." It ended when so many Native Americans had been massacred and driven to the threat of extinction that they had no more recourse other than to submit to being relocated, giving up their self-sufficiency and switching to a sedentary life of badly mismanaged survival off of government subsidies and food supplies. And many Native scholars would say the conflict never even ended there but changed to the courtroom instead of the battlefield.

Is that your endgame plan for Israel and Palestine? I know you keep repeating, and seem to sincerely believe, that Israel has "tried to make peace many times" but let's be blunt here. What they're doing now and what they've done many times in the past is simply take what they want and then offered Palestinians the chance to sign a treaty and legitimize it, which they won't do. It's not fundamentally different from the pattern of western expansion hitting Native Americans, it's just being played out in modern times. And you can talk all you like about how this particular enemy is much more vile or much less deserving of sympathy but the fact remains that few people viewed Native Americans in the 17, 18 or 1900's as any better and the fact that no one had thought up strap-on explosives yet really isn't relevant to say all the other fundamental issues involved over land and historical claims to land aren't basically the same between the two comparisons.

A lot of what you say indicates, to me, your belief that people, or at least the Palestinians, need to prove to the world that they're moral and ethical and good enough to deserve statehood, or equal rights, or equal treatment, or consideration of their right to exist in any question where it conflicts with Israel's perogatives. Have you ever heard of the Five Civilized Tribes? When white expansion through the west was basically undeniable, five tribes in the American southeast decided that their best chance of survival was not in conflict but through assimilation, as the justification of the violent treatment of other tribes as whites settled further west was the "barbarism and savagery" of the Native Americans and the fact that they were "uncivilized." So these five tribes learned English, they began white southern style plantation working-- some even became slaveowners! They adopted western style dress, most converted to Christianity, they even began printing newspapers. They were in many regards indistinguishable in lifestyle from the whites they lived on the border of in the south. That didn't mean a single thing when Andrew Jackson decided that land was for whites first and Indians could go take a hike. Nor did the fact that they'd behaved so civilly, avoiding conflict and even pursuing their grievance through a writ of certiari to the U.S. Supreme Court engender any big sympathy for them when Jackson removed them to reservations.

What's the moral of this story? The moral is that the idea that people have to, or even SHOULD, try to "prove" to you their worth as civilized human beings before you "acknowledge" their right to exist is an absolute bullcrap argument, and that even people who do try to do this are still going to have someone like you stand up and say screw them anyway when huge money or wealth or power is to be gained by displacing them.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Also I do know about many of the injustices against Native peoples and I certainly would support giving them more power, and revoking the discovery doctrine, and giving them the ability to prosecute offenders in their areas.

I think what you're missing is this will never happen and not because it isn't right but because it would undermine the U.S.'s legal legitimacy to exist on a slab of land that ultimately was acquired by massacring people and forcing them through military force to remove to outdoor prison camps.

Think about that for a moment in terms of Israel ever acknowledging that any of its land-grabs in Gaza perhaps weren't strictly right or fair to the Palestinians and whether or not Israel will ever realistically reflect that in a serious peace offer.

 

[iwantbig]

yeah the jews had a presence in the land of cannan after they were chased out of egypt by the pharoah after causing all sorts of trouble ( long story short ) ,
they wandered the wilderness for forty years and then descended on the land of cannan like a plague of rats and slaughtered every one they met ( long story short ) ,
apparently they were returning to the land that a " god " had told their great great great grandfather was his ,( a homophobic god at that ).
family history : a bloke named abraham couldn't get his wife pregnant so he porked the maid and got her pregnant , she had a son named ishmael , then abrahams wife became pregnant so he abandonded the maid and his first born son ( great paternal instincts ), had a son from his wife named issac , around this time a " god told him all the land he could see from the hill top was his ( any one seen the deed ), later the god came back and told him to kill his son , which he was quite prepared to do , but changed his mind when he found a ram , the son survived his fathers impulsive behavour and grew up to have two sons ( not sure if they had the same mum or not, the younger son , jacob ripped off his older brother eesaw for the family fortune and bolted , ( two first borns in a row copping a raw deal ) , older brother forgave him and said come home its ok , jacob had two wives , ten sons by one and two by the other , the first son from the second wife gave his brothers the shits so they sold him into slavery and he ended up in egypt ,
later due to some amazing good fortune he became an adviser to the phaoroh saved egypt by advising them to store some grain for the famine that was coming ( genius ), when the famine was at its worst his brothers showed up to buy some grain , ( long story short ) they abandoned the family farm and moved to the big city , freeloaded on the good nature of the egyptians for several generations until they gave the egyptians the shits and were enslaved , later on they had an uprising and terrorised the egyptians and ran off with the crown jewels , ( back to the start ) went back to where they thought they came from and slaughtered the inhabitants that had stayed behind and survived the harsh years , later they were attacked by various surrounding comunities ( generaly allowed because the homophobic god was un happy with them ) , finnaly the romans came and kicked them out with the blessing of the " god " and they were not to return but wander the earth ,
tell me if ive missed any thing ?
so thats why its their land