All lives matter

[ClubLevelVegan]

I see that my attempt to start a conversation is resulting in nothing more than lazy one-liners with no depth. I think my OP shows that I'm not being "ignorant and racist." Am I homophobic, also? Tell me what "it" is that I don't get. How is an all-inclusive phrase like All Lives Matter considered to be "self-centered"? That makes no sense. Calling me a race baiter is so ridiculous.

As a kid who was called a fag and a queer in a conservative Pennsylvania school district, I am not oblivious to offensive words directed to various groups. Black/brown people often refer to themselves as "people of color." That isn't considered offensive to them. But, I do understand why "colored" is considered an ugly word as it dates back to the days of segregation.

Because I assumed and boy did I assume correctly, that anyone spouting "All Lives Matter" isn't someone who was willing to listen in the first place. This term can easily be disputed by data. All lives don't matter if Black lives don't matter and they clearly don't to the Police and anyone trying to diminish the message with "all lives matter." When we live in a society with such inequality because of the color of someones skin, because of their sexual orientation, or gender, all lives do not matter. When Black people face more excessive force and death at the hands of Police and nothing is done about it, all lives do no matter. It's literally as simple as that, if we're not all on the same playing field and being treated equality by our Government, Police, Work Place, etc. All lives do not matter.

 

[belamyi]

^ So let's just sum up and conclude by saying


ALL LIVES SHOULD MATTER


but


NOT ALL LIVES ACTUALLY DO MATTER...



... AND NEVER WILL.

 

[cabinfever]

I see that my attempt to start a conversation is resulting in nothing more than lazy one-liners with no depth. I think my OP shows that I'm not being "ignorant and racist." Am I homophobic, also? Tell me what "it" is that I don't get. How is an all-inclusive phrase like All Lives Matter considered to be "self-centered"? That makes no sense. Calling me a race baiter is so ridiculous.

As a kid who was called a fag and a queer in a conservative Pennsylvania school district, I am not oblivious to offensive words directed to various groups. Black/brown people often refer to themselves as "people of color." That isn't considered offensive to them. But, I do understand why "colored" is considered an ugly word as it dates back to the days of segregation.

Just to be clear some of the most homophobic people on the planet are actually gay people themselves - alot of the ones in the closet but not all can do alot of damage to the ones that aren't and if they have internalized homophobia without dealing with it they are most likely to externalize it as well and act out. LGBT people are also just as likely as anyone else to be racist or sexist and notoriously ageist.

There are quite alot of very good analogies and explanations of why all lives matter misses the point if you are truly interested - google is your friend. I will just leave it at that and you can come back without the "lazy one liners" that you have also displayed BTW and give a more in depth view first. Maybe if you read though the cornucopia of very well reasoned and thoughtful responses you can formulate a better discussion with specifics.

 

[KaraBulut]

Just to be clear some of the most homophobic people on the planet are actually gay people themselves -

And the gay community has its share of racism, too.

As a kid who was called a fag and a queer in a conservative Pennsylvania school district, I am not oblivious to offensive words directed to various groups. Black/brown people often refer to themselves as "people of color." That isn't considered offensive to them. But, I do understand why "colored" is considered an ugly word as it dates back to the days of segregation.

Just because someone is a member of a minority doesn't mean that have an appreciation of the struggles of other minorities. And in the case of the relationship between people of color and the LGBT community, there hasn't been an automatic understanding or support for each other's issues.

"Colored people" isn't an ugly word. It's just an archaic term like "negro". It's also a tip-off that the person probably doesn't have a diverse circle of friends.

 

[mcbrion]

Guys, I don't think of Anthony as a troll, and when he first came onto the forum, wondering how he could approach a guy who had just moved in, he and I corresponded quite a bit. So, as the most senior Black guy on the site (70), I ask that you cut him some slack. I can see that he truly doesn't understand this.

Anthony, the explanation offered by President Obama is simply saying that some of us have had a rougher time: stopped by the police for no reason. SHOT by the police for no reason. PROFILED by the police for no reason. But not ONLY the police: by the general population, too, and that includes gay society, too, of which I spent 30 years in San Francisco as an activist and saw matters pertaining to equality swept aside time and time again. Even in the Civil Rights Movement, the progress was "surface" progress: people mouthed the words, but did not walk the talk.
Over the last 5 years, the Black populace finally got tired after what was obviously unnecessary murders: Trayvon, Tamir Rice (12 years old) and started up a movement that says, "Stop Killing US! Our lives have value, even if you don't think so."
And now the movement is exploding into the mass consciousness.
And that's the crux of it.

 

[mcbrion]

I'm reposting becuase I got a phone call and it went past the 10 minute limit. So, this is not the exact same repost: just explains things a little more to my liking.

Guys, I don't think of Anthony as a troll, and when he first came onto the forum, wondering how he could approach a guy who had just moved in, he and I corresponded quite a bit. So, as the most senior Black guy on the site (70), I ask that you cut him some slack. I can see that he truly doesn't understand this.

Anthony, the explanation offered by President Obama is simply saying that some of us: Blacks ( I don't like the word "African-American," because when we're shot, arrested, roughed up, it certainly has nothing to do with our "American-ness" and EVERYTHING to do with our skin color: Black) have had a rougher time: stopped by the police for no reason. SHOT by the police for no reason. PROFILED by the police for no reason. But not ONLY the police: by the general population, too, and that includes gay society, too, of which I spent 30 years in San Francisco as an activist and saw matters pertaining to equality swept aside time and time again. Even in the Civil Rights Movement, the progress was "surface" progress: people mouthed the words, but did not walk the talk. So, what should have happened 50 years ago, DID NOT. Never mind Affirmative Action. It was a Band-Aid for tokenism and, if you read statement by Black executive speaking out in the papers these days, THEY see it, too. And many of them are in their 50s or 60s, so what I know? What I have experienced? SO HAVE THEY.

After the intensity of police killing increased, especially over the last 10 years, the Black populace finally got tired of what was obviously unnecessary murders, murder based on nothing more than that the police had a negative psychological fear of Black men and RE-acted, rather than acted rationally: Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice (12 years old) to name only two people. So, BLM reacted and started a movement (BLM) that says, "Stop Killing US! Our lives have value, even if you don't think so."
And now the movement is exploding into the mass consciousness.
And that's it in a nutshell. A recent study in the LA Times, TODAY - on the front page - found that 80% of incidents with the police (including deaths) were those of Blacks. Given we make up 15% of the population (or less), that's a mind-boggling statistic.
There is much work to be done, and the first thing is recognizing that many of us are minding our own business and still being killed by Whites. It's an ugly scenario, and harks back to the days of slavery, when our lives could be ended on a whim. And we don't intend to go back to those days.


885 people have been killed by police in L.A. County since 2000; most were black or Latino (KTLA5; June 9, 2020)

 

[opinterph]

Why ‘All Lives Matter’ Is Such a Perilous Phrase (New York Times; July 2016)

 

[belamyi]

Why you should stop saying “all lives matter,” explained in 9 different ways Vox Jul 11, 2016


I would have put that rather as "what you are actually saying when you say 'all lives matter'"...

 

[KaraBulut]

This video linked in the Vox article explains the point well:

 

[NotHardUp1]

Negro, colored, darky were all just just descriptive in their day, and not considered epithets, but that is not true today.

Anyone using them in school or the workplace would be reprimanded or possibly even formally disciplined, and they would not be written up for using "archaic" language, but offensive language.

Again, if a non-black individual used the terms in a casino, sports venue, bar, or school, it would pretty much be a trigger for a brawl.

Our OP hasn't explained how he missed that unsubtle reality of our society and language.

 

[flamingo]

First of all, I want to say Thank You to those of you who posted today in trying to engage me in a mature discussion. As opposed to those last night who lowered themselves to calling me a racist, white supremacist, neo-Nazi troll.

My OP was written in an admittedly clumsy manner. No malice was intended. I believe that all lives do matter, but obviously society in general does like to pick its winners and losers. As belamo stated: "All lives SHOULD matter." In my OP, I wrote that "This is not a contest over whose lives matter more." Sadly, it seems to become that far too often. My attempt to equate the Black and Gay experiences was a clunker, as was my use of the word "colored." Both groups have had turbulent histories, but there are obvious differences.

We all tend to see the world through our own lens. Growing up in rural Pennsylvania, I've had little interaction with Black people. I've been fortunate to have several Gay friends. I went to a school where I was bullied by other kids because I was different.

mcbrion took me under his wing when I was a shy 18 year old pup who had just joined JUB in 2018. He and I communicated numerous times, giving me pep talks on how to approach the man that had moved in next door to me. That man became one of my boyfriends. I asked mcbrion questions about race back in his earlier days. He enlightened me quite a bit. Thanks, man!

And, yes, my name is Anthony. I hope y'all still don't think I'm the racist asshole you thought I was.

 

[Alistair]

It's still not about who's lives should matter more. It's that black lives should matter equally to white lives.

Right now, that's not true. When it is it will be perfectly fine to say all lives matter.

 

[mcbrion]

One of the true marks of someone who is racist is that they do not ask questions about your experience: they dismiss you out of hand.

So, Anthony, as soon as you did that - and empathized with my life as a Black man - I knew you were a decent human being. And that's all one can ask of another human being. The growth part of life comes with time - and experience. As I pointed out, George Wallace was a vile segregationist. But - on his own - he thought about who he'd been, and how he'd been, and he asked forgiveness from Blacks after he thrashed it out in his mind - ON HIS OWN.
I don't think anyone truly matures from being bashed. In fact, that only delays growth, because you then have to deal with the anger of being bashed (rightly or not). But I don't mean you shouldn't express outrage or disagree. Only that we maintain some degree of empathy for someone we think is seeing things wrong. Most of us say the wrong thing at the wrong time (God KNOWS I have). But afterwards, when people then leave you alone, you have the time to think things over on your own. And think about what they said.

Sometimes you grow (Wallace). Sometimes you do not (Hitler).

 

[Rex]

All lives matter, and it's not racist to say that.

Support black lives. Don't support "Black Lives Matter".

 

[Rex]

One of the true marks of someone who is racist is t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶s̶k̶ ̶q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶:̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶m̶i̶s̶s̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶a̶n̶d̶.̶ ̶
they try to redefine the definition of racism so certain groups of people can be racist without being labeled as racist

fixed.

 

[belamyi]

^ Let's just say that one can be an unwilling, unknowing racist: an asymptomatic racist.

 

[belamyi]

One of the true marks of someone who is A HARDCORE racist is that, unlike the asymptomatic ones, they do not ask questions about your experience: they dismiss you out of hand.

Fixed

 

[SeaCore]

I am bothered by how you are both literally rewording and claiming to understand better the nature of racism to the only openly Black voice in this thread.
It reads to me as incredibly condescending; quoting, editing, and then saying 'fixed'.

 

[belamyi]

^ Actually, I was mocking the jubber who first posted that "fixed" but, most importantly about your comment, I am already way above boredom to witness how people end up judging about the logic and fairness of whatever is said, according to who said it. So your logic amounts that one could never reason more accurately than some black person about racism against the black, unless one is a black person oneself. Which amounts to saying that white people only have a retainer's role in all that, and that it is not about logical fairness but, ultimately, about a mere clash between groups.

By implying that nobody is entitled to correct a black person, therefore, focusing on the (supposed) skin color of who is talking, you are not helping much to the equality cause.

Well, in my case, it may come down from my peculiar genetic heritage (am I not some sort of "light brownie", after all ) , but this ultimately proves that this is not so much about reasoning as about feelings: how could it be otherwise, when politics and masses are implied.

 

[Dominus]

Imagine this. Your house is on fire. You call 911 to get the firefighters to come. When you start giving your address, the operator interrupts you and say "hang on, we don't need to go into that. All houses matter."

Yeah... but right now it's your house that is on fire.

Let's put it another way. July 4th is coming up pretty soon. How will every feel if people starts chanting "All countries matter!"?

During breast cancer awareness, does anyone say "all cancers matter"?

At your birthday party, should everyone chant "all birthdays matter"?