All lives matter

[TX-Beau]

By the way, don't go around ascribing your own opinions to some kind of nebulous "many people," it's a rookie move, and doesn't make anyone take you more seriously. Also if you're making a statement of fact - crime rates are soaring (where? according to who?) no one is going to take you seriously without backup.

 

[Kyanimal]

No one is calling for eliminating police departments. Inferring that is a right wing bating point to inspire fear, and hopefully gin up votes.

What is being called for is "defunding" the police, not abolishing them. What that actually means is taking money from their budgets, and using it for community support to build better outcomes. Look at the roots of the problems, and solve them from there. A loaded gun should not be the solution to all problems.

Research into police responses have shown that an armed officer is not needed for 90% of all of the calls. What we need are more counselors, medical professionals, good teachers, after school activities, social and economic equity, etc., etc., etc. You get better results by encouraging people to behave in a civil matter, and making the resources they need available, than threatening them with overwhelming force.

The saying goes, "When you're a hammer, everything is a nail." When you train armed officers to be aggressive, people are getting shot during what should be simple traffic stops (for example). These days, cameras and radar guns can issue speeding tickets, and fines for other traffic violations (no matter what color the driver is). Take the money for some squad cars, and use it for surveillance equipment. With that, you can also decrease the number of officers needed, saving even more of the taxpayers money (ours), that can used for yet other programs. Social engineering vs. social suppression. Carrots vs. sticks.

Do you still need guys and gals with guns? Unfortunately, yes! The question is how many, and how, and for what, they are deployed.

There. One fallacy down. Now, if you're listening to the protestors, take a moment to actually look into what else they're saying. What is being exploited, by both sides, at surface blush, is never the full story. Do not believe what you hear right off the bat. Slogans are always simplistic. The question should be, what's really behind them. It's not all that difficult to find out what's really going on. Always question, and verify your sources.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

Lets talk about the political aspect of this. When Barack Obama was elected President (I was 9 at the time ), many thought that race relations would take a turn for the better. We still had riots and racial tensions following confrontations with police, which tells me that the party or race of the sitting President doesn't matter a great deal. In our big cities, where much of the tension has been boiling over recently, Democrats have been in charge for decades. Many of the mayors are Black, city council members are Black, even many of the police chiefs are Black. Black citizens overwhelmingly vote for Democrats. So why is there so much strife? What needs to change in our cities?

Because a lot of the time what gets pushed through is a bunch of band-aid laws that really don't do much at all and is only meant to look good on paper. I can't really say much more that has already been said by the protesters on what needs to be said. Systematic racism is something that we as a society, which includes the Government, needs to be up-rooted and removed. It will take time but it needs to happen before any real change can really take hold. Police, our Justice System, Education system and so many other parts of society have these problems.

In Presidential elections, Blacks usually vote 90-95% in favor of the Democrat candidate. However, when it comes to "all lives matter", the Republican Party's track record isn't very good, either. The LGBT community despises Christian conservative Republicans for the hatred they have for us as a group. I don't need to get into Donald Trump. Many groups have their reasons for not supporting him. But, the guy who wants to replace him, an increasingly incoherent Joe Biden, has a long history of stupid and offensive comments about Blacks and others.

When it comes to racial harmony, I see no help on the horizon from our politicians. Democrat or Republican! So, where do we go from here? As I type this I'm watching the live coverage of the burning of a Wendy's in Atlanta following a shooting and protest. What the fuck are we doing to ourselves?

What we were doing to ourselves is that unfortunately a huge chunk of our society wasn't listening to the plight of our fellow people even though it was constantly happening in front of our faces and now it has bottled up and exploded. People can only be pushed so far, it might take a while but there is only so far it can happen until there is push back.

I have been listening to the protesters. Unfortunately, the peaceful voices calling for change seem to get drowned out by the more militant factions who are more interested in mayhem and vandalism, which makes it more difficult for more people to rally around the movement. As more fires get set, more monuments get destroyed, and more demands to eliminate police departments as crime rates are soaring, it makes many folks (Blacks included) want to turn away from BLM. You cannot spray paint your way to justice, whatever you think that may be. What exactly is justice, and how will we know when that is achieved?

In my previous post, I addressed the political aspect of this and no one touched it. I think those are questions that must be answered.

Here is the problem. There are always going to be people on the right side of the message but might not always be saying or doing things in the "right" way. That doesn't mean they're wrong, though. Just because someone is hollering and screaming doesn't mean there isn't always something to take from that. Just because there is riots and vandalism doesn't mean the message should be taken less seriously. Systematic racism and problems with the Police force have been a proven problem for a long time now. It's easier to find problems and criticize these groups then actually listening to them.

Justice is when Black people aren't pulled over for their skin color anymore. Justice is when they aren't given harsher sentences because of the color of their skin. Justice is when remove all the racist shits out of the Police force. Justice is when Police who use excessive force or brutality are actually held accountable instead of protected by their unions. Justice is a lot of the systems we have in place now in need of a serious overhaul. And so much more.

 

[rareboy]

By the way, don't go around ascribing your own opinions to some kind of nebulous "many people," it's a rookie move, and doesn't make anyone take you more seriously. Also if you're making a statement of fact - crime rates are soaring (where? according to who?) no one is going to take you seriously without backup.

The use of 'many folks' (Blacks included) was a bothersome phrase for me in the OP's post above.

I am so sick and tired of this TrumpCo. device of 'many people are saying'....when they aren't and when there is no source to back this up. It is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst.

I would much prefer someone just being honest and saying 'This is what I think'...because it allows the opening that you might challenge the opinion with facts or logic.

We were asked to give the OP the benefit of doubt because of interaction with another JUBBER...but I think I get a pretty good picture of the OP's own intention with this thread.

 

[frankfrank]

Very early in the BLM protests (i. e. in December, after Ferguson four months earlier), I was chanting "ALL LIVES MATTER" without having heard of any such controversy before, not even being aware that anybody else was saying this.

My thought, after a little deliberation, was like...

OF COURSE black lives matter, but those aren't the only lives that matter. What about my transgendered friends Jackie and Lisa who have had their lives threatened? What about Native Americans who are still treated absolutely like shit? What about the crisis with would-be-immigrant children being kept in holding centers*** along the USA/Mexico border? What about gay people being discriminated against? What about people who are dying because they cannot get health care? What about the Kurds in Iraq, Syria, and Turkey? What about people working at Goodwill who can be paid as little as TWENTY-TWO CENTS per hour...or legalized slavery that we have inside our prisons? What about Jewish oppression of Palestinians...AND anti-Semitism in many other parts of the world? What about people in the world's largest prison: North Korea? What about female rape VICTIMS being killed in the Middle East? Their lives are important, too. "Honor killings" of baby girls born in India? In the USA, yes, blacks are the most oppressed of any demographic in the USA, and it doesn't stop with police killing black people. The judicial system reeks: consider Trayvon Martin, and how the so-obviously-guilty George Zimmerman was acquitted because FLORIDA. Or maybe not just there, I could still imagine a similar outcome in Texas, North Carolina, or even Ohio. The phrase "Black Lives Matter" ignores so many other people whose lives also matter." THAT thought was what caused me to think that "All Lives Matter" - I was surprised when (not long after this) a different interpretation emerged. My thought had merely been that black lives were not the only lives under assault, and the phrase shouldn't be "only about the United States" anyway.

***which, by the way, did NOT start with Trump. Obama was doing a similar thing at the border, around the same time that Ferguson happened. This has largely been forgotten, and within a few months that crisis (which I seemed to remember involved something like 47,000 or 52,000 immigrants at the peak of its news coverage) just seemed to vanish without a trace and without any resolution. These were children, adults, people of all ages, fleeing Central American violence.

I thought that "Black Lives Matter" ignored ALL other lives mattering, such as the examples mentioned above. I feel sad that "All Lives Matter" ended up being a rallying cry of the right-wing haters and bigots.

 

[Thad1527]

What's important is that you say it. Black Lives Matter.

Yes, there are so many other causes on Earth. Supporting one does not mean ignoring all the others.

 

[Kyanimal]

"All" lives can't matter, until Black Lives Matter, too. If Black lives don't matter, you can't claim All do. Do ALL Lives matter? Apparently not yet.

 

[Rex]

Not true, there are white people killed unjusticely by the police.
The whole system is all broken. It is better to fix the whole system rather than 1 single part which is BLM.

People don't want to hear this because BLM isn't about equality, it's about supremacy. Being a victem = power

 

[rareboy]

 

[rareboy]

Ever notice how you never see the same folks say "All Lives Matter" in response to "Blue Lives Matter"?

 

[Telstra]

People don't want to hear this because BLM isn't about equality, it's about supremacy. Being a victem = power

I don't know about Victim = power Lol

 

[TX-Beau]

People don't want to hear this because BLM isn't about equality, it's about supremacy. Being a victem = power

That's why Rex is trying so hard to be a victim.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

People don't want to hear this because BLM isn't about equality, it's about supremacy. Being a victem = power

So is this why you constantly try to paint yourself as one?

 

[Alnitak]

Apparently not all lives matter to public policy as it stands today. The BLM movement is about the unique disadvantages afforded to African Americans, in particular the context of police brutality. White lives have always mattered to a greater extent than anyone else, even minorities within the white race, gay whites, Catholics, Jews, Irish, Italians, etc.American authorities by their actions make no mistake about voicing their opinions that is blacks are an undesired population and are treated accordingly. Ever notice that the incarceration rate in the United States is staggering and what's more the racial disparity? One absolutely has something to do with the other..

 

[flamingo]

My "own intention with this thread" was simply to have a discussion about something I felt was important. I knew it might be controversial, but I wasn't expecting to be smeared and called ugly things that I know I'm not by fellow gay men who are twice my age and older. I've already acknowledged that my opening post wasn't expressed in the best way. I know what is in my heart and it doesn't really matter what the HaterAde drinkers think. I'll respectfully engage with the adults in the room.

At 21, this will be the first Presidential election I'll be eligible to vote in. The friends and family that I discuss important issues with are a mix of pro-Trumpers, never-Trumpers, and some in between. So I get diverse opinions that I absorb with an open mind. Just yesterday I was talking about the "all lives matter" topic with a boyfriend. He said, "We can hide being gay unless we advertise ourselves. They can't hide their skin color." Uh, yeah.

Those of you wanting me to provide backup on crime rates, check this:
NYPD Announces June Crime Rates Skyrocketing (Shorefront News; July 7, 2020)

That was for one city. This covers an insightful broader perspective nationwide:
It’s Been ‘Such a Weird Year.’ That’s Also Reflected in Crime Statistics. (New York Times; July 6, 2020)



Chaz, there actually have been calls for eliminating police. Does anyone here really want the 3 week police free zone experiment in Seattle to come to their hometown? I hope not! The Summer of Love?

I think officers (whose lives also matter) need to be armed because when they approach that vehicle or that front door, they have no idea what they are walking into. Perhaps more cops can be "walking the beat" and getting to know the people in the neighborhoods and develop more of a trusting relationship with the citizens. It would probably help immensely if cops didn't feel abandoned by the mayors and other city officials. I think that having counselors accompany officers to domestic disturbance calls could be a great option. Every situation is different, and all police shouldn't get painted with the same brush. They do have to have some level of aggression. I can't imagine officers surrounding a house and one of them yelling, "Put the weapon down! Come out with your hands up! . . . We have pie! . . . And ice cream!" Now, if that would work . . .

ClubLevelVegan, thanks for ignoring the noise and addressing my questions. You laid it out so well.
Alnitak, you painted a clear picture.
frankfrank, I agree with you that "all lives matter" shouldn't be a source of controversy. Most agree with it. But, I also wasn't aware that the phrase was being used by some as a means to disparage Blacks or any other group they want to keep down. I, personally, haven't interpreted that phrase as such.

Life is a learning process. I shall continue it daily.

 

[TX-Beau]

[Text: Removed], now you're playing the victim. A discussion about something else is not about how you're being victimized. [Text: Removed] no one knows who you are. You're just some pixels on the net, so when you start making this about your butt hurt, people check out and stop taking you seriously - once again.

Everything you've said about the subject you say you want to talk about can be boiled down into one paragraph, and it's nothing that hasn't already been exhaustively discussed elsewhere.

[Text: Removed]

 

[Kyanimal]

Some of my good friends are cops, and retired cops. I also happen to know the governor, county supervisor, mayor, city council president, my alderman, and several judges, including federal. And, when I say "know", I don't mean just knowing who they are. Oh, I forgot the prison guards, and some parole officers. I know some inmates, and former inmates, too. I also know several attorneys, including some in the public defenders' office.

I've been having discussions about law enforcement, with those in law enforcement, and those effected by law enforcement, for several decades. It is only recently that it's Finally bubbling up into the "general" consciousness. I think I began getting into it sometime in the 70s when the ideas around "community policing" (which were led by hoped for better outcomes) were being implemented. I've also had discussions about the inequalities in "the system", budget considerations, trends in crime statistics, sentencing guidelines, recidivism rates, etc., etc., etc., etc. Many of those conversations took place around our back yard picnic table.

We have yet to find the best answers to costs, both financial and social, vs. the most effective results. What we've been doing is definitely in need of improvement. If we're all about freedom, why do we have the highest rates of incarceration than any other developed country?

Um ... would that happen to be cherry pie? How about apple with cheddar cheese?

 

[Kyanimal]

 

[opinterph]

… those last night who lowered themselves to calling me a racist, white supremacist, neo-Nazi troll.

That’s not really true.

I wasn't expecting to be smeared and called ugly things

It is against the Code of Conduct and Guidelines of this sub-forum to smear fellow members or call them ugly things. Please report any instances of that behavior to the moderators.

This is not a contest over whose lives matter more. ALL LIVES MATTER. What do you think? Am I making any sense, or am I just pissing into the wind?

Regardless of the righteousness of fundamental truth behind the phrase “all lives matter,” those exact words have come to mean something other than what they literally communicate. They have become an “anti-” something else -- a motto - and that negative meaning is what people on the street will assume you are intending when you make a pronouncement that all lives matter.

 

[gsdx]

This is not a contest over whose lives matter more.

As you say, it is not a contest of whose lives matter more. It's about whose lives matter less. 'All lives matter' would be appropriate if ALL people suffered the same racism, brutality, cold-blooded murder, and all the other atrocities that they suffer every single day.

Yes, all lives matter, but the level of mattering should not be rated on a scale from 1 to 10, and that's the way it is and the way it has been for a very, very long time.