America Could Learn From Singapore

[Ram]

@Rammy:

Thank you for posting. Let me tell you a Singapore story. k? Maybe you can help solve a mystery.

Years ago, circa 1999, I had just gotten my little old strawberry iMac, and had been on dialup. I began to experiment with ICQ, and somehow, had logged on to a channel based in Singapore. I enjoyed the conversation I had with those young men.

One of them had an attitude that I thought was odd. He was hesitating about making a harsh statement about Australia. It took quite a bit of coaxing on my part for him to finally be willing to make that statement.

My question to you is: why would someone in Singapore be hesitant to make an anti-Australia remark?

MoltenRock, sorry for hijacking your thread, but I assure you, it's only temporary.

Maybe Ozguy was on the same channel.

Honestly, your guess is as good as mine. But yeah, one thing good about us Singaporeans is that we are a reserved bunch of people. We rather pretend to get along then fight. Funny thing is that we do have extreme views but the in-your-face thing is just not becoming of us.

Plus we have been filled with some much propaganda, so sanitized that we find it difficult to criticize a country or race. Racism is a good thing because it gets people thinking and defending. There is no engagement here, no race debates -- nothing. People live with the stereotypes they believe because there isn't anybody to challenge them and they can't argue it too. We live with so much anger that we can't express -- we might just burst. I am not saying that people should be racist. We must have a platform to see and hear arguments, to confront and ask, to change our views. When we can't do that, we will live it and it grow into something else, something far more dangerous.

So yeah, we can't say shit about things. Hey we can't say shit about our government so what makes you think we have the balls to say about others?

Singaporeans are very weird people. Look at how we treat Bangladeshi workers here in Singapore cleaning after us, building vital infrastructure that we credit their bosses for. It's almost subhuman. The views average Singaporean has: crazy.

 

[Kulindahr]

Do you remember right wingers saying that auto workers were making $70 per hour?

Once you figure in benefits, many of them do.

And when I visited a family in Flint, MI back in the early 80s, the dad, an auto worker, was getting over $50/hr back then.

what??
Did Kulindahr really say that, or am I having a bad dream?

Most crimes in the U.S. -- especially once you subtract the ones government generates -- are victimless. And that law "enforcement" today is about manufacturing criminals comes from two interestingly independent sources: the University of Chicago law school, and a high officer of the NRA (which tends to worship law enforcement).

 

[Kulindahr]

Why did no one call him on this shit? This is rich.

If you had follow the link you provided, you would see that you just provided us with the results from a study by the Heritage Foundation.

This is a think tank with the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity on their home page.

So you basically just told us what a bunch of Rethugs (whom you claim to hate) - you know, those guys who looooove authoritarianism - think about Singapore. Good going.

Considering that it's been demonstrated that 'conservatives' would rather punish (more than) a few guilty innocent people to make sure they catch more guilty ones, it's especially hilarious.

Here's something interesting that shows that the grass ain't all greener in Singapore (although the U.S. could use its own overhaul, apparently - thanks a lot, PATRIOT Act ):

http://www.geographic.org/country_ranks/privacy_country_ranks_2007.html

Wow. I would have thought we were in the top ten!

I'm afraid I have to agree with RazorsEdge.

What's worse is that someone name Friedman was quoted. Was that Milton Friedman? Milton Friedman publicly stated that brain surgeons need not be licensed to practice, because of its adverse effect on the economy. And someone is quoting him? Good Lord Almighty! You might as well quote Pol Pot.

There are at least three economists by name of Friedman. Since Milton is dead, and it sounded like he was quoting someone who's alive, I suspect Thomas.

 

[Kulindahr]

It looks like the pay scales where JB3 is are almost twice what they are here.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Our Kulindahr has been kidnapped! NO!

Most crimes in the U.S. -- especially once you subtract the ones government generates -- are victimless. And that law "enforcement" today is about manufacturing criminals comes from two interestingly independent sources: the University of Chicago law school, and a high officer of the NRA (which tends to worship law enforcement).

Yeah, because rape, murder, and theft never do any damage. Drugs are perfectly harmless, and shoplifting is perfectly fine as long as you do it against a large retail change. And white collar crime? A myth: Enron has never done anything wrong.

Seriously? Step away from the Kool-Aid.

RG

 

[JB3]

The trouble, Kulindahr, is that absolutely nobody figures it out that way, except riighties who're trying to discredit unions, and this is a major reason I have such a problem believing a single word they say.

If you ask any JUBbers here....even righties...what they make per hour, they'll give you a figure that'll reflect their actual pay scale without benefits. In my own case, I wouldn't even know what my pay scale was, if I figured in my benefits.

Same here.

A teacher here in Reno would be making in the 40k range.

Is that a starting teacher, or a teacher that's been working for 25 years? Most starting teachers here will make between $40 and $50k.

 

[JB3]

It looks like the pay scales where JB3 is are almost twice what they are here.

Actually its BELOW average. Starting teachers here can make $40k. When you factor in over 20 years of experience and a masters, it goes up quite a bit though.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yeah, because rape, murder, and theft never do any damage. Drugs are perfectly harmless, and shoplifting is perfectly fine as long as you do it against a large retail change. And white collar crime? A myth: Enron has never done anything wrong.

Drugs are a matter of personal recreation. Even by the government's own figures, they mess up very few lives. The misrepresented "War on Drugs" is the biggest cause of violent crime in America -- to the tune of 80+% of all violent crime. So the government is spending many tens of billions of dollars a year to generate crime. Apart from that, most crime is victimless.

 

[Kulindahr]

Actually its BELOW average. Starting teachers here can make $40k. When you factor in over 20 years of experience and a masters, it goes up quite a bit though.

A typical teacher in Oregon won't hit $40k till he's taught ten years. The state average for all teachers isn't much above $40k. The highest in the local school district isn't even $60k.

And a master's makes no difference; it's required to even get hired. For most teaching positions, you need a bachelor's in education plus a master's in the area you want to teach -- even if all you're going to teach is freshman high school math courses, you have to be able to do differential equations, vector calculus, etc. etc. If I'd stayed at OSU and managed to come up with a master's in earth science in '95, I would have been looking at a starting salary of $28k, maybe $30 in a wealthy district.

 

[Kulindahr]

I wonder if it has really paid off tho, the national debt compared to GDP is huuuge for Japan. Perhaps a more cautionary approach is more preferable in the long run.

Running a business and running a country are somewhat different things. Politicians quite often think they know better than people who actually have to pay their way on things, so countries get screwed up.

 

[Kulindahr]

It's always easier to spend someone else's money.

Especially when a billion here and a billion there are pocket change.

 

[JB3]

A typical teacher in Oregon won't hit $40k till he's taught ten years. The state average for all teachers isn't much above $40k. The highest in the local school district isn't even $60k.

And a master's makes no difference; it's required to even get hired. For most teaching positions, you need a bachelor's in education plus a master's in the area you want to teach -- even if all you're going to teach is freshman high school math courses, you have to be able to do differential equations, vector calculus, etc. etc. If I'd stayed at OSU and managed to come up with a master's in earth science in '95, I would have been looking at a starting salary of $28k, maybe $30 in a wealthy district.

That's odd. In the majority of districts in the US you won't even get an interview if you're a new teacher with a Masters. In fact, I'm specifically waiting to finish my thesis until after I have a job because no school district will hire me if I'm already done with it. Is the union strong by you?

 

[Seasoned]

Do us a favor MRIII : if you think Singapore is so great, stay there. Try being an openly gay man in Singapore, and let us know how long it lasts before you end up in prison. Your constant America-bashing is getting old, and your faux concern for your 'home' country isn't fooling anyone.

I lived through the "love it or leave it" Viet Nam period and don't want to live through another one. It's used to try to end an argument, much the same way as people will say it's in the bible. Why would we wish to stifle speech in this of all countries?

The US is in decline brought on by loss of manufacturing, a worsening educational system, the current US health costs, the end of the cold war (expensive to be the only super power), and a political system which rewards politicians who tell us what we want to hear rather than the truth.

The alternative cry ought to be, "America love it and work together to improve it."

 

[JB3]

I lived through the "love it or leave it" Viet Nam period and don't want to live through another one. It's used to try to end an argument, much the same way as people will say it's in the bible. Why would we wish to stifle speech in this of all countries?

The US is in decline brought on by loss of manufacturing, a worsening educational system, the current US health costs, the end of the cold war (expensive to be the only super power), and a political system which rewards politicians who tell us what we want to hear rather than the truth.

The alternative cry ought to be, "America love it and work together to improve it."

Because MR has proven all he's interested in is bashing America and not working to solve any of the problems. The fact that he's using Singapore, a country that is far less free than he would have us believe, as an example of why America sucks, is proof enough of that.

If he was actually constructive, this would be different. But he's not.

 

[maxpowr9]

A typical teacher in Oregon won't hit $40k till he's taught ten years. The state average for all teachers isn't much above $40k. The highest in the local school district isn't even $60k.

And a master's makes no difference; it's required to even get hired. For most teaching positions, you need a bachelor's in education plus a master's in the area you want to teach -- even if all you're going to teach is freshman high school math courses, you have to be able to do differential equations, vector calculus, etc. etc. If I'd stayed at OSU and managed to come up with a master's in earth science in '95, I would have been looking at a starting salary of $28k, maybe $30 in a wealthy district.

I feel bad for you. I guess the "New England area" really does pay their teachers the best. I remember in private school my chem teacher was just 25 and she was already pulling in $45k as a first year: she didn't even have a master's (private schools can get away with that sort of thing). I know in MA, after 25 years of teaching public school, you can start collecting your pension and "double dip" although you will only get a COLA and not a pay raise. I know Connecticut pays their teachers the best but they have the highest standards for teachers. For example: you have to have a teaching degree from CT (or in progress) to even teach in CT public schools.

Even coiffures in MA easily can pull in six figures although that is more on the rare side. Most will make around 50k.

 

[bankside]

Speaking of teachers, I looked this up once for a question on another thread:

I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

Teachers are paid $49 000 to $83 000 per annum depending on experience & education. (€34 000 to €58 000 / £30 500 to £51 500 / USD 48 000 to 81 000)

An average small house (maybe 120 square meters on property of 500 square metres would cost $330 000 / £205 000 / €231 000 / USD 322 000 but an established teacher could probably afford more.
Tax:

• VAT is 7% on all products and services except financial services/medical (0%) and new homes (4%).
• Provincial Income tax is a flat rate of 10% regardless of income, and the first $17 000 is tax-free.
• Federal Income tax is 15% on the first $40,970 of taxable income, + 22% on the next $40,971 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $40,970 and $81,941) I'm also pretty sure there is no tax on the first $10 000 or $12 000 or something but I couldn't remember exactly.
• Canada Pension Plan and Employment Insurance are mandatory, and cost a maximum of $2100 and $750 per year respectively.
• Property ownership is taxed by the city and the school board. The taxes for that house I mentioned would total $2425 per annum.
• There is no council tax or poll tax or health care user fee or health care deductable

This province (Alberta) has the least government regulation of the economy in Canada.

The lack of regulation is welcomed by businesses, but it is highly undesirable in many respects - child labour conditions are a concern here, which seems out of place in a modern democracy. Child labour? Wow. http://www.justlabour.yorku.ca/volume13/pdfs/03_barnetson_press.pdf

And of course the environment, with our famous oil sands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sands#Environmental_issues

So of course instead of reasonable light regulation of the economy, the government pursues this goal as an ideological fetish, and the province is weaker because of it. And as in many places, the same people who tell us to idolize economic freedom also tell us to submit to their conservative religious standards without regard for our own freedom.

Alberta has rural racists, rednecks and homophobes in many communities who think that Canada should "remain Christian" (even though it has not had any state religion since Confederation). It is annoying to live somewhere so uncivilised. People are usually private about their same-sex relationship.

However the cities are diverse and open, and even here we have the full legal protection of the law. You cannot be fired for being gay, even by a religious employer, even by a religious school. You receive employer or government benefits on an equal basis. You can get married. You can adopt children. And though it is still possible to encounter bigots or homophobes, it is not tolerated in polite society.

French is spoken in Quebec, in large parts of northern Ontario, the National Capital region, and in New Brunswick. In the west, it is an asset if you can speak it, but there are only small pockets of French-speaking communities and French skills are only required to be a French language teacher.

 

[JB3]

I feel bad for you. I guess the "New England area" really does pay their teachers the best. I remember in private school my chem teacher was just 25 and she was already pulling in $45k as a first year: she didn't even have a master's (private schools can get away with that sort of thing). I know in MA, after 25 years of teaching public school, you can start collecting your pension and "double dip" although you will only get a COLA adjustment and not a pay raise. I know Connecticut pays their teachers the best but they have the highest standards for teachers. For example: you have to have a teaching degree from CT (or in progress) to even teach in CT public schools.

Even coiffures in MA easily can pull in six figures although that is more on the rare side. Most will make around 50k.

Same here. Kuli's area is definitely not the norm. If I was to get a job next year in my local school district, my BASE pay would be $42k PLUS a stipend for extracurriculars. (around $3,500 a year) If I was to get my masters prior to my second year, I would get bumped up to $51k. (It would take a teacher with a BA 11 YEARS to hit that mark) If I teach in that district for 23 years, and reach all of the continuing ed milestones (which you have to reach anyways to keep your certificate in Illinois), I will earn $102k. Keep in mind that that doesn't include stipends, benefits, or any extra compensation for added duties.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Drugs are a matter of personal recreation. Even by the government's own figures, they mess up very few lives. The misrepresented "War on Drugs" is the biggest cause of violent crime in America -- to the tune of 80+% of all violent crime. So the government is spending many tens of billions of dollars a year to generate crime. Apart from that, most crime is victimless.

I'm calling bullshit on this one. Just because there isn't physical harm done does not mean that there wasn't a victim. Explain that to those that have had to rebuild their lives due to identity fraud. Or those whose livelihoods have been wrecked because someone destroyed their homes.

Sorry, but just because a crime is not aimed at a particular person or the person himself is the major sufferer does not meant that there is not necessarily a victim. So, yeah; I'm calling BS on this one.

RG

 

[Kulindahr]

That's odd. In the majority of districts in the US you won't even get an interview if you're a new teacher with a Masters. In fact, I'm specifically waiting to finish my thesis until after I have a job because no school district will hire me if I'm already done with it. Is the union strong by you?

I have no idea what the unions are like. But the legislature got an itch in their pants when I was still at OSU and decided you have to have a Master's in your area of expertise to even be hired any more.

I know Connecticut pays their teachers the best but they have the highest standards for teachers. For example: you have to have a teaching degree from CT (or in progress) to even teach in CT public schools.

That's not especially a high standard. As I said, in Oregon you have to get that bachelor's in education, and a master's in your area of expertise. So to teach chemistry, I would need to get the education degree, and then a master's in chemistry. And some districts will require you to pick up a master's in education as well before you've taught for five years.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm calling bullshit on this one. Just because there isn't physical harm done does not mean that there wasn't a victim. Explain that to those that have had to rebuild their lives due to identity fraud. Or those whose livelihoods have been wrecked because someone destroyed their homes.

So if I kill someone that person is not a victim...? Sweet. I'm really not understanding the logic here.

RG

You're not using any. How is murder or identity theft a "victimless crime"???

Over 80% of violent crime is generated by the government through its "War on Drugs", which is nothing but persecution of people who enjoy a form of recreation that's looked down on. Take those out of the equation, and the crimes that are left are things people did to themselves, not to anyone else.
Besides that is the high number of people who get arrested for things they haven't done or for things that aren't crimes, but end up "criminals" because they can't afford to fight the system. DAs regularly pile up four or five charges for a single action, forcing people to take a plea bargain or risk being convicted by cops who manufacture evidence to make the arrest look righteous.