On-Topic Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

[maxpowr9]

I'm facing my palm so hard right now. These are the sources people cite while screeching that we're products of a left wing think tank.

Well, as long as you aren't citing huffpost or daily kos, were good.

 

[opinterph]

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...poverty-in-the-united-states-a-book-of-charts

Robert Rector’s paper (Heritage Foundation) was published in 2006 and his analysis is limited to data from a single year (2003) of the Current Population Survey of the US Census Bureau. He shares a variety of percentages that associate poverty according to demographic classification, but fails to demonstrate a valid connection between poverty and what he considers to be its underlying causes.

Though Mr. Rector presents himself as an expert on matters of poverty and welfare, it is reasonably obvious that he distorts and spins data to promote political objectives. After it came to light that his work was the source for Mitt Romney’s ads attacking welfare by claiming that Obama “gutted” the requirement in the 1996 welfare reform law that recipients look for work in exchange for government support, David Brock reported that Rector is “a man with a long history of minimizing the struggles of the poor and villainizing the very idea of government assistance for those who need it.” Last September the Bridge Project (associated with super-PAC American Bridge 21st Century) published a report detailing some of the controversy surrounding Mr. Rector’s work:

Meet The Man Behind The Claim That Obama 'Gutted' Welfare Reform​

 

[HenryReardon]

. The Law Center isn't a racist group.

Of course it is. In any case you're dissembling.

Why are you so anxious to defend the criminal class? And make no mistake, anyone here illegally is a criminal.

 

[Durango95]

The final word from me is..as an American, and I am assuming a law abiding citizen, how can anyone defend those that blatantly disregard our laws for whatever reason. It is sad that these people are leaving their native countries rife with corruption and without hope or a future. It really is. It isn't my problem though. It isn't any American's problem.

 

[HenryReardon]

And no they aren't. Try again. Some were brought here when they were children and they aren't criminals. Keep it up with the bullshit argument... like the make believe one about who is Hispanic or not.

And the moment this nation implemented xenophobic ideas is the moment it'll decline into a disastrous mess.

They came here illegally, breaking our laws, therefore they are criminals.

Little boys shouldn't toss big words like xenophobic around.

 

[HenryReardon]

And I as an American citizen wonder about those who blatantly ignore the corruption within the political party they support and how they are tied to corporate crooks that stole billions.

I guess when one doesn't have an understanding about what immigrants go through they lack a understanding of reality.

ry.

I don't support any of the major parties, so your first point is irrelevant.

As for what illegal immigrants go through—who cares? They're still breaking our laws and should be sent home.

 

[xbuzzerx]

The final word from me is..as an American, and I am assuming a law abiding citizen, how can anyone defend those that blatantly disregard our laws for whatever reason. It is sad that these people are leaving their native countries rife with corruption and without hope or a future. It really is. It isn't my problem though. It isn't any American's problem.

Almost assuredly your ancestors came under the exact same circumstances at some point and some Anglo who could trace his family directly to the Mayflower was saying the same thing about your family.

Obviously, nearly everyone of European descent in America today is a criminal right? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

 

[Rolyo85]

Grown ups who consciously cross the border illegally are criminals, in a way that MANY immigrants weren't and aren't. So to compare those with EVERYONE's ancestry is unfair.

That said, children are innocent in this, and having grown up in the States, they should be given citizenship. It's no more their fault they were raised here than it is an unborn baby's for having been conceived in the US. If one gets an automatic citizenship, so should the other.

 

[palemale]

The final word from me is..as an American, and I am assuming a law abiding citizen, how can anyone defend those that blatantly disregard our laws for whatever reason. It is sad that these people are leaving their native countries rife with corruption and without hope or a future. It really is. It isn't my problem though. It isn't any American's problem.

In 2003, the Supreme Court struck down the sodomy laws of Texas in the case Lawrence v. Texas. At that time, there were more than a dozen states that had laws banning sodomy. You can't defend people, gay and straight, who violated those laws? Perhaps you violated those laws. What state were you living in before 2003?

 

[rareboy]

They came here illegally, breaking our laws, therefore they are criminals.

Little boys shouldn't toss big words like xenophobic around.

Well then, let a big boy do it.

Next to Benvolio...who could be your twin given the stunning similarity of positions you both hold, you and the others frothing at them mouth over all of this are as xenophobic as they come, based on the words you all write or the rabid diatribes we hear being delivered on television.

The joke is on you though.

The GOP has realized that they will never, ever win if they don't court the Hispanic demographic and counting on hyper-religious, crotchety old ex-Cubans isn't going to do it any more.

 

[Durango95]

Grown ups who consciously cross the border illegally are criminals, in a way that MANY immigrants weren't and aren't. So to compare those with EVERYONE's ancestry is unfair.

That said, children are innocent in this, and having grown up in the States, they should be given citizenship. It's no more their fault they were raised here than it is an unborn baby's for having been conceived in the US. If one gets an automatic citizenship, so should the other.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. The sticky wicket is how do you give citizenship to children without a package of benefits for the criminal parents. If that problem could be solved then so be it. My own personal take is that we should do like many countries do. If the child is the product of two foreign born parents, then yes the child is a citizen but doesn't have full rights and privileges until the age of 18. That means no freebies for the parents or cousins or grandmas or uncles.

I know there is going to be a firestorm for me to prove that the freebies are the reason they come. I can google it all day long and find studies with one bent that says yes. You can google it all day long and find studies with yet another bent that say no. Objectivity is dead in this country. As far as proof of anything it is a shell game.

Logic would dictate that there would have to be some driving reason to leave your native country besides that of possible employment in a crappy job. That is even taking into consideration that many of these people come from places where their homes are tin shacks with dirt floors and they shit in a hole in the middle of the street.

 

[HenryReardon]

In 2003, the Supreme Court struck down the sodomy laws of Texas in the case Lawrence v. Texas. At that time, there were more than a dozen states that had laws banning sodomy. You can't defend people, gay and straight, who violated those laws? Perhaps you violated those laws. What state were you living in before 2003?

You are attempting to to equate the private behavior of presumably consenting adults with the very public, dangerous, and illegal crossing of our borders. The situations are not analagous.

Despite the hysterical bleating to the contrary by some of the louder fools in this forum, illegals do bring a cost to the taxpayers.
If a very pregnant Mexican peasant makes it across the border and gives birth to her lottery baby, who pays for it?
If she goes to a hospital, the taxpayers do.
When either that child or one born elsewhere that she brought along gets sick, she uses the ER of the nearest hospital as an outpatient clinic. Again, the taxpayers pay.
Then there's a dozen years of schooling, paid for by local property owners. Ad valorem taxes provide most of the money for schools.
I wonder how many illegals own property and pay real estate taxes?

 

[Rolyo85]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. The sticky wicket is how do you give citizenship to children without a package of benefits for the criminal parents. If that problem could be solved then so be it. My own personal take is that we should do like many countries do. If the child is the product of two foreign born parents, then yes the child is a citizen but doesn't have full rights and privileges until the age of 18. That means no freebies for the parents or cousins or grandmas or uncles.

I know there is going to be a firestorm for me to prove that the freebies are the reason they come. I can google it all day long and find studies with one bent that says yes. You can google it all day long and find studies with yet another bent that say no. Objectivity is dead in this country. As far as proof of anything it is a shell game.

Logic would dictate that there would have to be some driving reason to leave your native country besides that of possible employment in a crappy job. That is even taking into consideration that many of these people come from places where their homes are tin shacks with dirt floors and they shit in a hole in the middle of the street.

I agree with your first paragraph. But you are as wrong about this as only an American can be. Believe me, US "freebies" are pathetic compared to other countries. The basic LIVING STANDARD is what makes it so desirable a location for illegal immigrants. Because the sad truth is that many come from places where whatever living they can do legally pales in comparison to washing dishes in Chinatown in Chicago for example. Where crime is so ridiculously high as to make living in a US ghetto a vast improvement.

People don't come here for your - frankly insultingly small - social support network. They come because life in this country is better even for its poorest than in many countries across the globe.

 

[Rolyo85]

You are attempting to to equate the private behavior of presumably consenting adults with the very public, dangerous, and illegal crossing of our borders. The situations are not analagous.

Despite the hysterical bleating to the contrary by some of the louder fools in this forum, illegals do bring a cost to the taxpayers.
If a very pregnant Mexican peasant makes it across the border and gives birth to her lottery baby, who pays for it?
If she goes to a hospital, the taxpayers do.
When either that child or one born elsewhere that she brought along gets sick, she uses the ER of the nearest hospital as an outpatient clinic. Again, the taxpayers pay.
Then there's a dozen years of schooling, paid for by local property owners. Ad valorem taxes provide most of the money for schools.
I wonder how many illegals own property and pay real estate taxes?

Mexican "peasant"? What if she's an educated woman from the capital? Would that make a difference for your douchbag elitism?

And what about all the CONTRIBUTION to the economy? What about all the work they do? That somehow gets swept under the rug...

 

[HenryReardon]

And what about all the CONTRIBUTION to the economy? What about all the work they do? That somehow gets swept under the rug...

Their so-called 'contribution' to the economy is the demonstrable fact that they take jobs away from Americans. And don't hand me that tired 'jobs Americans won't do' nonsense. If the illegals didn't take them, someone would step forward, especially if they were hungry. There are still places, mostly rural, in this country where the work ethic is still strong.

Illegals contribute nothing but problems.

 

[Durango95]

I agree with your first paragraph. But you are as wrong about this as only an American can be. Believe me, US "freebies" are pathetic compared to other countries. The basic LIVING STANDARD is what makes it so desirable a location for illegal immigrants. Because the sad truth is that many come from places where whatever living they can do legally pales in comparison to washing dishes in Chinatown in Chicago for example. Where crime is so ridiculously high as to make living in a US ghetto a vast improvement.

People don't come here for your - frankly insultingly small - social support network. They come because life in this country is better even for its poorest than in many countries across the globe.

I've heard the argument before about how fabulous benefits are elsewhere. There are two points I'd like to make concerning that. The first point is immigration laws in those countries are draconian compared to ours and are actually enforced. This is why these countries have an immigration population under 15% of the overall population in the countries with the largest immigration population. Which, too, I have to restate the populations of these countries are much smaller than that of the U.S. The second being the U.S. underwrites a large portion of the E.U.'s debt. So they too are spending the American taxpayer's money for their fabulous programs.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I've heard the argument before about how fabulous benefits are elsewhere. There are two points I'd like to make concerning that. The first point is immigration laws in those countries are draconian compared to ours and are actually enforced. This is why these countries have an immigration population under 15% of the overall population in the countries with the largest immigration population. Which, too, I have to restate the populations of these countries are much smaller than that of the U.S. The second being the U.S. underwrites a large portion of the E.U.'s debt. So they too are spending the American taxpayer's money for their fabulous programs.

I think what GiancarloC and I spent a page trying to point out to you and HenryReardon was that while it may be easier to get into the U.S. than into Canada or Sweden or countries with much more substantial social support systems in place, the U.S. economy is also far more dependant on the labor provided by immigrants as well. Any attempt to attack immigration by throwing around a figure about how much they 'cost' in terms of social services will be useless when it doesn't also examine their contribution to the economy and the level to which the jobs they perform realistically are not jobs native born Americans will consent to fill (not without tripling the wage at least) nor jobs native born Americans are realistically competing for. I'm sorry but I simply don't know anyone, ever, who was mad over losing an under the table 70 hour a week job in the kitchen of a restaurant with no overtime or benefits.

Like I said in a previous post, doing what has been done so far in this thread, just throwing out the 'cost' of immigrants in a vaccuum, could be done just as much about native born Americans where, if you similarly do not examine their contribution to the economy, I'm sure the cost THEY incur in the form of social services absolutely dwarfs hispanic immigrant costs. Yet no one is here screaming that we should throw out every native born American because of the 'cost' they incur to society.

 

[Durango95]

It is every hard to have a conversion with an ideologue. Ideologues operate solely on belief. A good analogy would be those on the ghost hunter programs. They invite "debate" or "discovery". When the results are a definitive no, they still say that they "believe" the place is haunted.

It is a belief system and not one based on facts or law or anything other than a emotional belief in some abstract social paradigm.

 

[xbuzzerx]

It is every hard to have a conversion with an ideologue. Ideologues operate solely on belief. A good analogy would be those on the ghost hunter programs. They invite "debate" or "discovery". When the results are a definitive no, they still say that they "believe" the place is haunted.

It is a belief system and not one based on facts or law or anything other than a emotional belief in some abstract social paradigm.

You fall back on this refrain everytime we actually respond to you with a very reasonable counterpoint.

You aren't being screamed down by ideologues. I presented a very real, very logical problem with your position on why immigration is bad. And you fall back, yet again, and you do this sometimes 3 or 4 times within a single thread, to bemoaning how it's impossible to talk to us left wing think tank ideologues.

It is not the fault of anyone else that you can't support your positions. If you can't then the problem is with your positions and how you come to them.

 

[HenryReardon]

... the US WAS BUILT ON IMMIGRATION. .

That would be a true statement only if you insert the term 'legal' between on and immigration.