On-Topic Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

[xbuzzerx]

The slur for Italians is wops... it came from "w/o papers." Many Europeans (not just Italians) literally just showed up on a boat. This grandstanding about legal from people who very likely come from these same forebears is a little dishonest.

 

[Durango95]

Ok I will say this again. The facts, statistics, figures provided are from sources with an agenda. When someone has an agenda driving the compiling of the data, then said compilation is free of objectivity. It is tantamount to asking the individual committing a crime if he is a bad person.

I am not calling anyone names. I am just saying from the information on this forum and the way things are posted many on here could be determined to be ideologues.

The reason we have such issue with this topic is there are those that come from a completely different concept. If you excuse criminal behavior without going through the proper channels then amnesty and the mass granting of citizenship if perfectly acceptable. There is the perceived political gain as well.

You want studies, figures and charts. I am still searching for unbiased information. I as to date haven't found any. When you follow the money on the groups publishing data you then know the agenda. Agenda equals subjectivity.

I am using simple critical thinking as to my stance. When you have millions of people which are low or no skill workers; all are significantly below the U.S. poverty rate thus having no disposable income; most are uneducated; many are in poor health; it is naive to believe there isn't a substantial outflow of taxpayer monies in the care and maintenance of these people.

Pursuant to a statement made earlier, it doesn't make any difference how much money is supposedly poured into the U.S. economy by these people. They broke the law. Allowing a special circumstance for them sets a precedent.

No one is saying to punish children. Most Americans would take exception to reconfiguring law to accommodate these people setting a precedent which will have a disastrous effect in the future.

 

[rareboy]

CIS: The "Independent" Think Tank

​

Oh Gos. I can't even believe that anyone quotes, let alone pays any attention to CIS. Or FAIR.

But apparently P T Barnum was right.

 

[Rolyo85]

In the end, numbers are numbers. One can still learn what he needs from statistics, polls and researches, provided he is aware of their method, context, and potential bias. Completely regardless of what the goal behind the research was.

 

[Kulindahr]

No other country in the world is as lax as is the U.S. with immigration policy, no one.

Very true. If we adopted the same rules for Mexicans coming in illegally as Mexico has, they'd scream we were being barbaric.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Ok I will say this again. The facts, statistics, figures provided are from sources with an agenda. When someone has an agenda driving the compiling of the data, then said compilation is free of objectivity. It is tantamount to asking the individual committing a crime if he is a bad person.

I am not calling anyone names. I am just saying from the information on this forum and the way things are posted many on here could be determined to be ideologues.

The reason we have such issue with this topic is there are those that come from a completely different concept. If you excuse criminal behavior without going through the proper channels then amnesty and the mass granting of citizenship if perfectly acceptable. There is the perceived political gain as well.

You want studies, figures and charts. I am still searching for unbiased information. I as to date haven't found any. When you follow the money on the groups publishing data you then know the agenda. Agenda equals subjectivity.

I am using simple critical thinking as to my stance. When you have millions of people which are low or no skill workers; all are significantly below the U.S. poverty rate thus having no disposable income; most are uneducated; many are in poor health; it is naive to believe there isn't a substantial outflow of taxpayer monies in the care and maintenance of these people.

Pursuant to a statement made earlier, it doesn't make any difference how much money is supposedly poured into the U.S. economy by these people. They broke the law. Allowing a special circumstance for them sets a precedent.

No one is saying to punish children. Most Americans would take exception to reconfiguring law to accommodate these people setting a precedent which will have a disastrous effect in the future.

Durango, still searching for objective sources is fair enough. I don't think anyone would attack you for that.

In the meanwhile though, can we agree that talking about the 'cost' to society of a given subset of people in terms of social service dollars they use, is not informative at all if it's not examined within the context of what they put into the economy? When it's applied only in the case of hispanic immigrants then the question is logically begged, why is no one screaming about the amount of social service dollars used by Asians in America, or whites in America for that matter?

 

[opinterph]

I wonder how many illegals own property and pay real estate taxes?

Where do you suppose “illegals” reside?

According to Randy Capps, a senior research fellow at the Urban Institute, “Undocumented immigrants pay the same real estate taxes-whether they own homes or taxes are passed through to rents-and the same sales and other consumption taxes as everyone else. The majority of state and local costs of schooling and other services are funded by these taxes.” The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a nonpartisan think tank, has corroborated this point by declaring that, “Property taxes are hard to avoid, and unauthorized immigrants are assumed to pay the same property taxes as others with the same income level.” [Link]

See also “Myth No. 1” in the following link:

7 myths that cloud immigration debate (Darrel M. West)​

 

[maxpowr9]

Where do you suppose “illegals” reside?

See also “Myth No. 1” in the following link:

7 myths that cloud immigration debate (Darrel M. West)​

The only statement that I would contest is the opinion poll. I would say it's pretty split that Americans favor kicking ILLEGAL immigrants out of the country.

I will say, nearly every illegal I know rooms with a legal US citizen which is what makes the situation tricky.

 

[Rolyo85]

In the end, numbers are numbers. One can still learn what he needs from statistics, polls and researches, provided he is aware of their method, context, and potential bias. Completely regardless of what the goal behind the research was.

I'll quote myself since nobody addressed this point, and I think it should be addressed.

 

[Durango95]

I stated my position on the issue. The OP was about Marco Rubio and his buying into this debacle of immigration "reform".

Obviously I am not trying to change any minds here. I'm sure most everyone is strident in their beliefs.

We do need immigration reform. That is certain. It doesn't need to be directed solely at one group of people.

There are a lot of people on this forum that "will argue with a fencepost" as my grandmother used to say. It does become tiresome, though.

 

[Rolyo85]

I stated my position on the issue. The OP was about Marco Rubio and his buying into this debacle of immigration "reform".

Obviously I am not trying to change any minds here. I'm sure most everyone is strident in their beliefs.

We do need immigration reform. That is certain. It doesn't need to be directed solely at one group of people.

There are a lot of people on this forum that "will argue with a fencepost" as my grandmother used to say. It does become tiresome, though.

As are your snide remarks that you use to cover for lack of arguments. And buzzer is right - you do it literally every time when you have nothing to further your stance.

 

[Durango95]

I get it. My opinion has little value for you.

The thing you don't get is your opinion is equally as worthless to me.

 

[Rolyo85]

Your opinion has little value to anyone here, because you fail at supporting it. If we're just going to be snotty at each other and tell each other how much we don't care for each other's opinion, we might as well not post at all. You are engaging in an argument, so it falls to you to support your opinions. When you fail to do it and try to mask it behind a "you're all idiots anyway" attitude, it makes you appear stupid and helpless. I am fairly confident that is NOT the desired effect, so maybe you should consider some different strategy for posting here.

 

[HenryReardon]

.

We do need immigration reform. That is certain..

Do we? Really? There are any number of laws already on the books, many of which have been there for a very long time.
Why don't we do something radical, like rigorously enforcing the laws we already have. If that doesn't work, then, and only then, should we try another approach.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I get it. My opinion has little value for you.

The thing you don't get is your opinion is equally as worthless to me.

I will reiterate what I said before: my problem was the basis upon which you were justifying your opinion. If you stated only the raw figure of "social service dollars used" with no examination of economic contribution of *any* group in the U.S. besides hispanics, you could equally make just as valid a case that they're a drain and should be kicked out.

That was my problem with your opinion.

 

[Durango95]

OMG

There are those that are STILL trying to assert that their opinion has merit.

You've really got to get this guys...IT DOES NOT HAVE ANY MERIT BEYOND YOU....NONE.

 

[HenryReardon]

If you stated only the raw figure of "social service dollars used" with no examination of economic contribution of *any* group in the U.S. besides hispanics, you could equally make just as valid a case that they're a drain and should be kicked out.

.

The economic contribution, if any, is irrelevant to the subject at hand. The fact remains that they are a drain on local resouces everywhere. More to the point, the fact that they are here illegally trumps any other consideration.

 

[xbuzzerx]

OMG

There are those that are STILL trying to assert that their opinion has merit.

You've really got to get this guys...IT DOES NOT HAVE ANY MERIT BEYOND YOU....NONE.

What I said wasn't an opinion, it was a logical rebuttal of a full page of this discussion.

 

[Rolyo85]

The economic contribution, if any, is irrelevant to the subject at hand. The fact remains that they are a drain on local resouces everywhere. More to the point, the fact that they are here illegally trumps any other consideration.

This is about as idiotic as saying none of the advantages of gay marriage matter because all that matters is that gays can't have kids...

 

[HenryReardon]

. The economic contributions are absolutely essential. They aren't a drain on anything. They are contributing $260+ billion to the economy each year and that far exceeds the costs to the country. Stop cherry picking. Undocumented workers contribute greatly to the economy, and this is just the reality.

Even if that were true, and it arguably is not, (BTW, you've provided absolutely no reliable proof to the contrary)the fact remains that the illegals have broken our laws in coming here. Nothing else matters. Nothing. Send them back where they came from,and if they really want to come to this country, let them attempt to do so through channels. No other argument matters. Not one.