are democrats going to seize the moment?

[Norri]

I agree Mehdi Hasan here. If Democrats want to win they need to run not only on a platform of change and a better future, but a platform of accountability for all the people who broke the law and brought this havoc on our country. By 2029 we won't only need accountability, we will need denazification.

I agree with you that accountability is necessary but it’s not an issue I’d run on it’s just something I’d pursue once in power. I believe the reason the Justice dept. has opened up criminal investigations on Walz and Frey is because they encouraged protesters to take vids of ICE officers for the purpose of future prosecution. Those are the suggestions we need to hopefully have some ICE agents think about their own culpability and it’s nice to have the Jan. 6th incarcerations as an example.

Let the republicans be the party of retribution and once in power let the dems. be the party of justice.

 

[Norri]

Schumer and Jeffies have to go.

I once had high hopes for Jeffries but now I see him as a sell-out to the GQP and TrumpCo. agenda.

Schumer, Jeffries Refuse to Join Democrats' Growing Calls to Slash ICE Spending | Common Dreams

The killing of Renee Good by an ICE agent sparks outrage as Democrats debate funding for the agency. Should they use their power to rein in ICE's violence? Progressive lawmakers demand action, but top Democrats seem hesitant. Is it time for a change in leadership to hold ICE accountable...

www.commondreams.org

It looks to me that they are smart politicians who know how to win elections, running against ICE is bad politics in my opinion no matter how good it might make you feel. A smart Pol will run against the way ICE is doing its job spreading terror among the population and injuring citizens because they dare to protest. Obama deported thousands of illegals when he was president but with none of the drama and intimidation that Trump so enjoys, the point being it’s not necessary to do it the way Trump wants it done to get the job done.

 

[rareboy]

They are two of the reasons why the Dems have been losing support among younger voters.

Neither has an actual vision to help the people in the US. They are both play along to get along and owned by the same moneyed interests as their Republican counterparts.

And they aren't that great at winning elections really. The House is so gerrymandered that only a few seats end up in play and the Senate is worse.

They are now both hacks...just doing the minimum in order to keep their own seats. At worst they will help deliver wins to Republicans because either the voters just won't urn up or
drift to Independents who can't win their seats.

 

[Norri]

They are two of the reasons why the Dems have been losing support among younger voters.

It is not the reason they are losing younger men.

 

[rareboy]

One Dem who didn't listen to the grey men in the party just became the first woman governor of Virginia by running on a progressive agenda.

As one of her first acts she made good on her promise and rescinded the Executive order requiring Virginia law enforcement to co-operate with ICE.

 

[rareboy]

It is not the reason they are losing younger men.

Nonsense. Of course it is.

They offer nothing to any demographic except for middling age white folks who own their own houses and have the prospect of retirement savings,

 

[Norri]

Nonsense. Of course it is.

They offer nothing to any demographic except for middling age white folks who own their own houses and have the prospect of retirement savings,

The youth vote shifted right in the 2024 election and had the dems won those awful old white voters they would have won the election. If progressives want to obtain power they had better realize they are running in a country that is not as progressive as they wish it were.

 

[cityboy-stl]

I agree with you that accountability is necessary but it’s not an issue I’d run on it’s just something I’d pursue once in power. I believe the reason the Justice dept. has opened up criminal investigations on Walz and Frey is because they encouraged protesters to take vids of ICE officers for the purpose of future prosecution. Those are the suggestions we need to hopefully have some ICE agents think about their own culpability and it’s nice to have the Jan. 6th incarcerations as an example.

Let the republicans be the party of retribution and once in power let the dems. be the party of justice.

Justice = Accountability. Pursuing justice is one of the things Dems should run on. The rule of law is the most fundamental thing Trump has taken away. Restoring the bedrock ideals of democracy, our Constitution, and what our country was founded upon, should be a campaign issue. Loyalty to the Constitution is the oath every official takes, and that means accountability for those who break it. It's not the only campaign issue, of course, but upholding the Constitution needs to the basis for all the other issues. Especially now, when we have a government who wants to shred it. "Truth, Justice, and the American Way"

 

[rareboy]

The youth vote shifted right in the 2024 election and had the dems won those awful old white voters they would have won the election. If progressives want to obtain power they had better realize they are running in a country that is not as progressive as they wish it were.

The youth vote shifted because BidenCo. including Harris wouldn't take the moral stand on Gaza and downplayed the concerns of affordability and opportunity. The Dems tried to run as soft centre Republicans on too many issues.

 

[KaraBulut]

The youth vote shifted right in the 2024 election and had the dems won those awful old white voters they would have won the election. If progressives want to obtain power they had better realize they are running in a country that is not as progressive as they wish it were.

The youth vote shifted because BidenCo. including Harris wouldn't take the moral stand on Gaza and downplayed the concerns of affordability and opportunity. The Dems tried to run as soft centre Republicans on too many issues.

The youth vote shifted independent. In an earlier post, I mentioned that 45% of American voters not call themselves "independent".

New High of 45% in U.S. Identify as Political Independents

A new high of 45% of U.S. adults identified as political independents in 2025.

news.gallup.com

That is not uniform in all age groups. The younger the voter, the less likely they are to consider themselves allied with either party.


The youth vote did not shift right in 2024, it actually trended left, although most independent voters still describe themselves as "moderate".

Democratic-Leaning Independents Give Democrats Edge

Gallup has regularly asked political independents since 1991 whether they lean more toward the Republican or Democratic Party.

Last year, more political independents said they lean toward the Democratic Party than the Republican Party, with the 45% of political independents breaking down into 20% Democratic leaners, 15% Republican leaners and 10% non-leaners. That is a shift from 2024, representing a three-point decline in Republican leaners and a three-point increase in Democratic leaners.

Between 2024 and 2025, identification with both the Republican and Democratic parties fell by one percentage point.

 

[rareboy]

^ This. Thanks for finding this study. It was in my mind when I typed my previous response.

And in another post somewhere, I noted again the danger of the shift to Independent when it is essentially a 2 party (uni-party) system.

There's no place for independents to go and consistently, they tend to hand the win to the other parties that can pull their voters out as a unified bloc.

In key elections they are responsible for the GOP taking the prizes as the left splinters all over.

It is why the Kremlin and other bad actor states invest so much into getting voters to leave the Dems because of mostly emotional versus factual issues.

And as the Dems have kept running scared and tried to please their big money corporate donors and blocs like the pro-Israel vote first and foremost, they always look like they stand for nothing that is of relevance to the below Boomer age voters.

 

[KaraBulut]

^ This. Thanks for finding this study. It was in my mind when I typed my previous response.

And in another post somewhere, I noted again the danger of the shift to Independent when it is essentially a 2 party (uni-party) system.

The Gallup article is an interesting read. It hints at why political consultants have been screwing up so badly in the past 25 years. It also explains something that is behind the discussion on this page of the thread: the appeal of populists like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump.

When you have a group of independents who don't ally to either party and who are not necessarily voting a particular ideology, they tend to look for the "bread and circus" candidate who is promising to make their lives better (aka giving away free stuff). That's why student loan forgiveness and Medicare for All was a thing on the left. It's why lower taxes, writing checks and giving away money has become a thing on the right. It's why both parties are trying to find a way to pay for health insurance premiums.

There is a vocal minority that cares about special interests. But more than anything, they are just responding to what ever lies promises the latest populist is making... and that's not a good thing, whether the candidate is on the right or on the left.

 

[Norri]

The youth vote shifted independent. In an earlier post, I mentioned that 45% of American voters not call themselves "independent".

New High of 45% in U.S. Identify as Political Independents

A new high of 45% of U.S. adults identified as political independents in 2025.

news.gallup.com

That is not uniform in all age groups. The younger the voter, the less likely they are to consider themselves allied with either party.
View attachment 3477448

The youth vote did not shift right in 2024, it actually trended left, although most independent voters still describe themselves as "moderate".

View attachment 3477455

I can’t seem to link it here but there was an article from the Harvard Kennedy school from 10-20-2025 entitled “Young Voters Shifted to the Right in the 2024 election by Susan A Hughes. You can look it up yourselves or continue to believe if the dems just shifted further left they would start winning elections.

 

[Norri]

Justice = Accountability. Pursuing justice is one of the things Dems should run on. The rule of law is the most fundamental thing Trump has taken away. Restoring the bedrock ideals of democracy, our Constitution, and what our country was founded upon, should be a campaign issue. Loyalty to the Constitution is the oath every official takes, and that means accountability for those who break it. It's not the only campaign issue, of course, but upholding the Constitution needs to the basis for all the other issues. Especially now, when we have a government who wants to shred it. "Truth, Justice, and the American Way"

Abe Lincoln you’re not, why have ‘Malice toward none and charity for all’ when you can play Robespierre? Lincoln allowed treasonous citizens to return home with their treasonous weapons because he believed, however unjust it might be, the best way for the country to heal and be united once again, do you think he was wrong to do so?

I want some justice too and I surely hope Jonathan Ross sees the inside of a courtroom someday but retribution is not a winning political strategy and it’s not working politically for Trump not that he cares. I think a good winning slogan the dems could run on is ‘A return to normalcy’ I mean it worked once….they should be asking Americans what that American Way is being the worlds bully or the champion of freedom.

Sad to say but all of that will be a sideshow, economic conditions will once again be the deciding factor. The man behind Jan. 6 was reelected and only lost in 2020 because of a virus and not because of the awful revolting individual he is. I honestly wonder what kind of lives Trump voters have lived……I mean they like a bully how does life do that to you?

 

[KaraBulut]

I can’t seem to link it here but there was an article from the Harvard Kennedy school from 10-20-2025 entitled “Young Voters Shifted to the Right in the 2024 election by Susan A Hughes. You can look it up yourselves or continue to believe if the dems just shifted further left they would start winning elections.

This is why you can't go by article headlines on research data. You really have to look at the data and understand what the data indicates.

They were looking specifically at Gen Z: comparing Biden's margins in 2020 to Trump's margins in 2024. It's not a "shift to the right". It was a dissatisfaction with whoever is in power. Gen Z rejected Trump in 2020 and they rejected Biden in 2024.

Christina Iruela Lane MPP 2026, a research assistant at the Ash Center, drew on her research to point out that Gen Z favored Harris over Trump in the 2024 presidential election by just four points, strikingly less than the 25-point margin for Biden in 2020. “This marks the strongest showing for a Republican presidential candidate among young voters since 2008,” said Iruela Lane.

In the first seven months of this administration, Iruela Lane said, research indicates an overall downturn in approval ratings for Trump, especially among Gen Z voters, dropping from 94% to 69%.

Two key issues for Gen Z voters, dissatisfaction with the economy and the way immigration is being handled, most likely influenced the drop in approval, according to Iruela Lane.

This is exactly what the Gallup data shows: GenZ is unhappy and they are blaming the people power- Democrats and Republicans - and they are increasingly calling themselves, "independents".

“While all age groups have grown increasingly discontent with the American democratic system in recent years, the dissatisfaction is significant among younger people.”

The election (where Trump received only 49% of the popular vote) was greatly impacted by voter turnout. Biden's 2020 voters didn't show up for Harris in 2024. Trump's 2020 voters showed up for him in 2024, but the percentage in the under 30 age group was much lower than in the older demographic. Trump also turned out white voters without a college degree- a demographic that Biden was stronger in 2020 than Harris was in 2024.


Anecdotally, this is very close to what I am hearing in talking with both GenZ men and GenZ women.

The women are very concerned about the State's interference with abortion and birth control and they are leaning Democratic but they don't like either party.

The men were unhappy and angry in 2024 and the bro-casters were fueling this anger. They voted for Trump because the internet was echoing the narrative that Biden was at fault for the high prices and slow job opportunities for the under 30 age group. Now that they've had a year of Trump, they are angry at Trump for the same reasons.

This is not about moving to the right. This is about being pissed at whoever is in power.

 

[cityboy-stl]

Abe Lincoln you’re not, why have ‘Malice toward none and charity for all’ when you can play Robespierre? Lincoln allowed treasonous citizens to return home with their treasonous weapons because he believed, however unjust it might be, the best way for the country to heal and be united once again, do you think he was wrong to do so?

I want some justice too and I surely hope Jonathan Ross sees the inside of a courtroom someday but retribution is not a winning political strategy and it’s not working politically for Trump not that he cares. I think a good winning slogan the dems could run on is ‘A return to normalcy’ I mean it worked once….they should be asking Americans what that American Way is being the worlds bully or the champion of freedom.

Sad to say but all of that will be a sideshow, economic conditions will once again be the deciding factor. The man behind Jan. 6 was reelected and only lost in 2020 because of a virus and not because of the awful revolting individual he is. I honestly wonder what kind of lives Trump voters have lived……I mean they like a bully how does life do that to you?

I never once said I was for retribution. Justice and accountability is the rule of law, not retribution. The best way for the country to heal is for those who nearly destroyed it to be held accountable. The same with the South. The same with Richard Nixon. Oh, that's OK Dick, you committed crimes against the country and the Constitution, you violated your Oath and tore the country apart, but we'll just forget about it and let you off the hook like it's a parking ticket.

I used to think, for a long time, putting all that behind us and moving on was the right thing. I've changed my mind the last 8 years. Things would be different with a precedent of prosecuting those who committed crimes against the Constitution and tore apart the rule of law, instead of "moving on" and letting those crimes sit and fester unresolved. We are still dealing with the effects of the Civil War because its causes were not completely resolved. We are here now, in part because Nixon wasn't prosecuted. What was the republican excuse for Trump? Same as Nixon, same excuse you're using, just move on and pretend like it didn't happen. So here we are.

Trump's retribution is a personal, vendetta retribution against everyone who doesn't worship der Trumpenführer. Trump's retribution is not working because it's bullshit revenge against those who oppose letting him get away with his crimes. That is not the same as justice under the rule of law. Democracy depends on the rule of law, and upon the rule of law holding accountable those who try to destroy it. A return to normalcy means a return to the rule of law and loyalty to the Constitution; and the rule of law demands justice and accountability.

 

[Norri]

The men were unhappy and angry in 2024 and the bro-casters were fueling this anger. They voted for Trump because the internet was echoing the narrative that Biden was at fault for the high prices and slow job opportunities for the under 30 age group. Now that they've had a year of Trump, they are angry at Trump for the same reasons.

This is not about moving to the right. This is about being pissed at whoever is in power.

All I ever said was the youth vote moved right in 2024, young men are part of the youth vote and as you concede they moved right in 2024.
And it may not be about moving right but moving right was the result.

 

[Norri]

I never once said I was for retribution. Justice and accountability is the rule of law, not retribution. The best way for the country to heal is for those who nearly destroyed it to be held accountable. The same with the South. The same with Richard Nixon. Oh, that's OK Dick, you committed crimes against the country and the Constitution, you violated your Oath and tore the country apart, but we'll just forget about it and let you off the hook like it's a parking ticket.

I used to think, for a long time, putting all that behind us and moving on was the right thing. I've changed my mind the last 8 years. Things would be different with a precedent of prosecuting those who committed crimes against the Constitution and tore apart the rule of law, instead of "moving on" and letting those crimes sit and fester unresolved. We are still dealing with the effects of the Civil War because its causes were not completely resolved. We are here now, in part because Nixon wasn't prosecuted. What was the republican excuse for Trump? Same as Nixon, same excuse you're using, just move on and pretend like it didn't happen. So here we are.

Trump's retribution is a personal, vendetta retribution against everyone who doesn't worship der Trumpenführer. Trump's retribution is not working because it's bullshit revenge against those who oppose letting him get away with his crimes. That is not the same as justice under the rule of law. Democracy depends on the rule of law, and upon the rule of law holding accountable those who try to destroy it. A return to normalcy means a return to the rule of law and loyalty to the Constitution; and the rule of law demands justice and accountability.

I believe on this issue your future will be one of disappointment and frustration.

 

[KaraBulut]

All I ever said was the youth vote moved right in 2024, young men are part of the youth vote and as you concede they moved right in 2024.
And it may not be about moving right but moving right was the result.

It's a misuse of the term "right".

Many of these voters were Bernie Bros in 2016. They didn't want Hillary because she was promising middle-of-the road establishment policies. Bernie was promising change.

The very fact that they want the government to intervene to make their lives better is the antithesis of "right" or conservative politics.

They aren't voting "right", "left" or based upon any traditional ideology. They are voting for change.

 

[cityboy-stl]

I believe on this issue your future will be one of disappointment and frustration.

Well, if we do not implement some form of denazification, if we don't hold the leaders accountable, and we don't pass some hard laws to stop this shit, this fascist hellscape is not going away, and it will come back even worse.

I still think promising to hold these Nazi monsters accountable for their treason should be one of the campaign issues.

But you're probably right. No one will do anything, and the Constitution will get weaker and weaker until we dissolve into chaos.

You're advocating for doing nothing. I am not.