Are gay pride day necessary ??

[Swellegant]

Counterproductive.
[...]
Citing Mardi Gras and St. Patrick's Day are irrelevant: there isn't a Catholic or an Irish faction fighting for the right to marry, to have legal rights equal to WASPs. Hedonism when generalized doesn't have the political fallout that Pride Parades generate. Deny it all you like, but it is costing the movement, no matter how fun it may be or how much it may mean from the past. The excesses are both foolhardy and expensive politically.

While in terms of political expediency, I can see your point, I find one serious flaw in your argument: we are not in negotiations. We are not sitting at the table with those who oppress us and offering bargains, "OK, we'll tone down the shenanigans and you'll give us our rights."

No, this is a war. This is a war between people who believe they have the right to dictate to others how they should live and behave, and those others standing up and fighting back.

And really, do you actually believe that if we "behaved" ourselves it would change anything politically? Do you believe that if all the drag queens and leathermen put on suits and all the Dykes on Bikes put on dresses that Ma and Pa Kettle in the Bible Belt are going to say "Hey, those people are just like us, let's stop discriminating against them!" Do you really think that if we got rid of the flash and the bare skin and the wigs and the disco that the news media will turn their electronic eyes to the staid "normal" folks remaining in the parade?

Do you really think it's the hedonism and extravagance that these people are pushing back against, and not the specter of two men having sex?

The conciliatory approach was tried. It failed. What succeeded was the rioting and the decades of never-back-down activism that followed it. And even if there were a possibility of political expediency in "behaving," do you really want to be part of a movement that throws some of its members under the bus so that the rest can enjoy some civil liberties? Liberties that have been illegally and immorally withheld? I certainly don't.

 

[Swellegant]

And another thing. Aside from the question of political expediency, what harm does all the "bad behavior" do? I'm not talking about giving offense, I'm talking about actual harm.

Who, besides the individual, is actually harmed when someone else, or a thousand someone elses, get high and make spectacles of themselves? Who is harmed, besides the individuals who choose to participate, when people have sex in the streets? (which never actually happens at Pride, you're thinking of Folsom Fair.) Who is actually harmed by the vision of a woman's exposed breasts or the bared buttocks of an elderly man in chaps? Who is harmed by seeing a penis, for Christ's sakes?

The people who discriminate against us do not have the right to discriminate against us for these reasons or any of the other reasons they like to cite. We cause no harm to anyone but ourselves; they, however, cause us unspeakable harm... in fact, a lot of psychologists will agree that much of the harm we do ourselves stems directly from the harm done to us by the narrow-minded prurient reactionary bigots who raised us.

Telling us to behave ourselves better so we can have our rights is like telling an abused child to behave better so his parents won't beat him senseless. It's like telling a rape victim to dress more conservatively so she won't be raped. It's like telling the victim of theft that he shouldn't have nice things that people will want to steal.

Backing down is not honorable or honest. We're fighting for the right to be who we are, as all who do no harm have the right to be who they are. But offending a person's personal morality or preferences is not harm. It's an inevitable byproduct of human progress.

 

[PreTTy PeTe]

OK you stay home but I'm going to Party with my friends who are dykes, the amazing drag queens I know, the leathermen and all those damn tourists who bring so much money into our city.

 

[thewiz]

As I pondered and read many of the things written in this thread, it dawned on me that Pride is at least the chance to show others that there ARE gays in their midst.

When I was a young police officer, family violence was largely handled "behind closed doors." Dad (usually) could slap mom around and she would go out with a black eye and marks that were caused by "walking into a door" or "falling." I'd interview kids who would retreat to a far away hiding place to avoid the sounds of their mom getting beaten or, in some cases, siblings.

What changed? It was brought into the open. Domestic violence wasn't a "private" affair. It was something that society had to face and when it did, it coordinated the response to break the cycle of violence so that hopefully future generations will not live with it in silence.

At one time being a drunk was thought to be funny; drunk driving wasn't a big deal. It took people bringing attention to the issue that caused many changes and treatments.

We could sit in the closet and go about life quietly. My husband and I could walk down the street several feet apart and never hold hands or go to a movie theater and perhaps hide in a back row while slipping our hands into each others. But we walk down the street hand-in-hand. We sit wherever we want in the theater (and at Kennedy Center) and I have no problem holding his hand or putting my arm around him like other couples.

For many people, they are forced to realize there are gays everywhere -- even in their community. While some will express shock or outrage at antics or costumes -- I've heard as many comments from straight girls and men remarking how "hot" many gays and lesbians can be. I have taken straight friends to drag shows and they are amazed with the costumes and productions.

But a lot of time people realize that the person next door, their uncle or, in my case, their dad, may be gay. I'll laugh, I'll cry, I'll actually be driving one of the celebs in the DC parade tomorrow. From the days when I stood in the shadows, I'm now not afraid to be seen in public.

Too, some people are afraid of people who are different. The first time I went to Mass at St. Augustine Catholic Church (the oficial black Catholic Church of Washington), I was afraid I would offend or otherwise stand out. Instead, two older women came up and greeted me, welcoming me to their congregation (and I ended up joining). I grew up in an all-white mid-Western town and had never been around blacks or anyone different. Now, I think nothing of it; it has become "normal" for me.

I think that is what Pride can be -- show that we are like everyone. We laugh, we have fun, we cry, and we may be the person standing next to you at any time.

 

[Nomenclature]

It's like the gay version of Mardi Gras.

When a group of straight people get together, flash each other, get drunk and act like a jackass, that's only a reflection on them. When a group of gay people does the same thing, it's somehow a reflection on ALL gay people. That's pretty weird, ain't it?

 

[Kulindahr]

Despite the love of gay activists for partying and over-the-top exhibitionism, the verdict in the end will be that Pride parades were politically counterproductive in their polarization of opposition forces.

Mike's concern is being relegated to closeted behavior or self-hate, which is quite different from concern that Gay Pride is becoming appropriated by countercultural extremism.
. . . .

Gay pride is evolved enough within the culture to be addressed for its political impact. The denial of how Proposition 8 got enough traction in California, NOT TENNESSEE, to pass, is a topic gay men would be wise to address. Far from Mike being closeted, it seems more likely that too many gay men are in denial of the consequences of certain aspects of gay culture that are working against our attainment of equal rights.

Boy, are you out of it.

The people who fought us on Prop 8 won't care if there are "excesses" or not. To them, gays merely existing and being equal citizens in any way is an "excess". These are people to whom denying gays housing and employment isn't just acceptable, it should be encouraged, people who want gays to not use the same hospitals, clinics, or even water fountains.

They're not interested in compromise. Two guys making out in front of them won't make them any more determined to eliminate us than two guys holding hands; guys trotting along in things won't make them any more determined than guys in business suits with big HRC emblems on their bags. The evil, to them, is not in what we do, but in who we are.

Even the Catholics, who argue for compassion, really want us to just cease being. Whatever behavior we might abandon, they'll just move to the next item in line and find it objectionable -- until we give up everything except our lives, at which point they'll tell us, "Good -- now go die".

In such a situation, the fight is not against the enemies, it's for the people in the middle, the great mass who can sway the whole. It's a fight like Ghandi's -- who went head on, attacking frontally the oppression by violating laws until they were removed, and finally all that was left was for the British to leave. Our "British" are the bigots, and we can't get them to leave, but we can get them marginalized. PRIDE does that, because people who come see that yes, gays have strange people, but they also have a whole array of others, and that, all in all, we look like anyone else.

My last Pride, I met a lady who'd been one of those enemies. The year before, she'd gone to Pride to gather descriptions of things to fire up her fellow anti-gays. Then her son went to college... and as she looked, she realized she wasn't seeing anything any worse than things her son had described happening at college. Suddenly everything looked different, and it left her bewildered.
That's when she met a lady her own age -- who was there with her own mother, a lesbian, and son, gay, and was wearing a tee shirt that said, "Proud of my Lesbian mom and Gay son".
Now she's in PFLAG.

There's where the fight is: not in tempering the extremists, but in filling Pride with the gays so ordinary, but PROUD, that people who can be persuaded will see we're just like everyone else, with our weirdoes and geeks and jocks and businesspeople... and families.

It's like the gay version of Mardi Gras.

When a group of straight people get together, flash each other, get drunk and act like a jackass, that's only a reflection on them. When a group of gay people does the same thing, it's somehow a reflection on ALL gay people. That's pretty weird, ain't it?

Mostly because the self-righteous and bigots understand the urges they see in the one instance, but are repulsed by those in the other.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Counterproductive.

Despite the love of gay activists for partying and over-the-top exhibitionism, the verdict in the end will be that Pride parades were politically counterproductive in their polarization of opposition forces.

Mike's concern is being relegated to closeted behavior or self-hate, which is quite different from concern that Gay Pride is becoming appropriated by countercultural extremism.

No one in Hot Topics is under any delusion that Mike's perspective will win any popularity contest amid the extremists, but that doesn't politically counter his observation.

Flaming him is more about gratuitous self-satisfaction of the mob of the like-minded than it is about looking at the issue.

Gay pride is evolved enough within the culture to be addressed for its political impact. The denial of how Proposition 8 got enough traction in California, NOT TENNESSEE, to pass, is a topic gay men would be wise to address. Far from Mike being closeted, it seems more likely that too many gay men are in denial of the consequences of certain aspects of gay culture that are working against our attainment of equal rights.

Citing Mardi Gras and St. Patrick's Day are irrelevant: there isn't a Catholic or an Irish faction fighting for the right to marry, to have legal rights equal to WASPs. Hedonism when generalized doesn't have the political fallout that Pride Parades generate. Deny it all you like, but it is costing the movement, no matter how fun it may be or how much it may mean from the past. The excesses are both foolhardy and expensive politically.

this da onion thang?

 

[BostonPirate]

Another thing that needs to be added to this discussion is that its all been said, so many times, at every Pride parade organisation committee across the nation over and over again, for so many years.

Some of these groups, like bearback bear daddies, don't tend to work well with a gay mens health organisation. They tend to want their booths and parade locations far apart... LOL!

It can be trying having such a big tent from within, but after years of internal dialogue, we decided that we were about individuals with gender identities and sexual identities that had civil rights threatened, and that we ought to support them in all their endeavors in all their many facets.

Remember when we were all arguing about the LG and the BT separation, years back?

Where does the gay community end, where does it begin... if you are transgendered does that mean you are gay? If you are post operative, and really a woman in a relationship with a man, did you have a place in gay pride? if bisexuals can still function in the hetero world, should they get our support and resources? the debates went on and on.

We decided we were the LGBT community and we made that choice on purpose.

we have done all this argument and we as small groups across the nation all came to the same conclusions.

If you are a human being and your gender identity and/or sexual identity causes you to have your civil rights threatened, then we are going to include you in our protections and our celebrations.

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>Remember when we were all arguing about the LG and the BT separation, years back?

You mean last week?

Lex

 

[BostonPirate]

>>>Remember when we were all arguing about the LG and the BT separation, years back?

You mean last week?

Lex

organizationally within the national gay community

Years ago there were huge debates over this because it affected who lambda legal and whatnot would work to protect. It affected whether gay health orgs would have hormone therapy for transgendered people.

The decision was a big one to make and it wasn't just about the parade. Our choices in who we support within our community have effects on peoples housing rights and their healthcare options, as well as civil rights violations that need help litigating in court.

no one else remember that shitty conversation we all had in the late eighties early nineties about who and what the community was.

Hell there were some gay men that thought that just having the lesbians involved was to much. To some... gay was two men and lesbian was two women, and never the twain need meet.

Sharing resources empowered us immensely though and we came through it that much stronger.

 

[G-Lexington]

My point was that those conversations in the gay community continue to happen in microcosm on an ongoing basis. Both in person and here on JUB, I see these same "discussions" taking place - sometimes subtly, sometimes overtly. It's interesting to see parallels.

Lex

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

political forum

Planet earthy any aliens out there YO!

 

[BostonPirate]

My point was that those conversations in the gay community continue to happen in microcosm on an ongoing basis. Both in person and here on JUB, I see these same "discussions" taking place - sometimes subtly, sometimes overtly. It's interesting to see parallels.

Lex

true true

The trans, the Bi's and the leather guys are still being told that they need to act better to earn their place, even though they were the ones that started the whole thing.

and hard up....

we don't endlessly celebrate it. we generally endlessly get told by churches and conservative politicians that we are immoral and useless. THAT is the year long event.

We celebrate gay pride once a month and/or one week or weekend a year.

And as we found out from Rep Weiner... hiding and pretending is considered far worse in America than showing the world openly what you are and what you do.

sweeping a few dragqueens and drunk leather boys under the carpet wont help us politically with anyone that is dedicated to depriving us of our rights, so all we are doing here.... really.... is talking about internal comfort levels.

Do you really want someone to pretend to be someone they aren't to make you comfortable? do you really want them to do it to save face?

whose face? theirs or yours?

anyone that will help us as a community politically wont care about the drag and the assless chaps. Anyone who hates us will never help us no matter how much we change.

 

[alfaPA]

..........
Citing Mardi Gras and St. Patrick's Day are irrelevant: there isn't a Catholic or an Irish faction fighting for the right to marry, to have legal rights equal to WASPs. ........

thank you
........
maybe im wrong, but i do see both sides
but what do i know, ive never even been to one -_-

yeah, it's long

No Irish Need Apply

Up until the mid-19th century, most Irish immigrants in America were members of the Protestant middle class. When the Great Potato Famine hit Ireland in 1845, close to a million poor and uneducated Irish Catholics began pouring into America to escape starvation. Despised for their religious beliefs and funny accents by the American Protestant majority, the immigrants had trouble finding even menial jobs. When Irish Americans in the country's cities took to the streets on St. Patrick's Day to celebrate their heritage, newspapers portrayed them in cartoons as drunk, violent monkeys.

However, the Irish soon began to realize that their great numbers endowed them with a political power that had yet to be exploited. They started to organize, and their voting block, known as the "green machine," became an important swing vote for political hopefuls. Suddenly, annual St. Patrick's Day parades became a show of strength for Irish Americans, as well as a must-attend event for a slew of political candidates. In 1948, President Truman attended New York City 's St. Patrick's Day parade, a proud moment for the many Irish whose ancestors had to fight stereotypes and racial prejudice to find acceptance in America.

From History.com

There may not be an easily perceptible (gay) Catholic or Irish faction fighting for the right to marry, but they are there...




.
.

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>There's room at the table for everyone, but that's not the issue. The issue is how to shape gay rights advocacy in order to gain the most from it politically. It is a political fight, and has to survive in a political forum.

Here's where I'm going to have to part company. But not just from you, I'm thinking. Whenever we talk about gay-specific rights and laws and whatnot, I'm usually found tossing out some version of a standard post. Which can be summed up thusly:

I firmly believe all political and legal gains made by gays and all other alt-sexualities over the past half-century have come about not from the top down, but from the bottom up. The fights and arguments we're seeing in courtrooms and capitols are simply reflective of the same fights and arguments we're seeing in our everyday lives. (Part of that whole "democratic" thing.) No, it's not a direct correlation, but the only reason any and all of the gay rights laws have been enacted is because enough "everyday folk" demanded it. Enough people think that "gay is OK" that we're getting more and more rights. And when we get political setbacks, I just consider that a sign that we've got more common folk to convince. Of course, some might directly move from that argument to the "leave the chaps and drag queens at home" argument, but that's a different discussion.

>>>Why are moderate and conservative men in social behavior somehow deemed homophobic or repressed?

This is a major leap. The issue isn't "moderate and conservatives are homophobic and/or repressed". The issue is "the moderates and conservatives who would wish to tone down or eliminate the liberal or 'flamboyant' are being homophobic". It reminds me of the politico who said that ending DADT would infringe on his religious rights - to wit, "What about my right to tell the gays to stay away?". At least, that's how it reads to me.

Lex

 

[BostonPirate]

I'm not embarrassed by flamers or whatever.

By endlessly, I meant annually, back to the same thing. In most communities, it is the signal gay event of the year, other than Halloween, when again the party culture is extolled.

Hiding is not the opposite of Pride Parades. That is the false dichotomy that is repeatedly put forward in these exchanges.

Why do those who do not endorse a party culture (and it is no more appealing to see Mardi Gras than it is to see excesses in Pride Week) instantly become relegated to second-class gay status?

Why are moderate and conservative men in social behavior somehow deemed homophobic or repressed?

I've not asked anyone to sit down and shut up, leave the table, or stop being included in LGBT. What I have said is that the ACTIVITIES we choose to make our flagship matter. Partying, and the inherent excesses, cost us.

And my point about California remains. How could California vote against us? Certainly not for lack of gay population in higher numbers than elsewhere in the U.S. Certainly because California is some kind of bulwark of Christianity or conservative social values. Certainly not because gay men are leading quiet lives there of closeted self-hate.

Why then, did it happen?

Is the electorate REALLY supposed to be simple-minded and unable to see past a few TV commercials?

The mormons poured cash into the state from next door. Google will give you more of an answer than you are willing to see or understand.

and IF partying is the problem... its the alcohol that you take umbrage with, not the assless chaps and the dresses.

well that is really simple.

YOU DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL OTHERS WHAT TO DO JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE IT.

You don't like the way a drunbk guy acts in a pair of assless chaps? never get drunk and wear a pair.

Your life can be complete.

You want to pretend that the "conservatives" in this discussion are being victimized? go back and reread why we ever started having this conversation.

It wasn't a drag queen or a drunk leather daddy that said certain types of people make us all look bad, although I assure you, if they did, it would be something to behold.

no

the conservatives, who have been victimized by the gay tolerance of excessive alcohol and sex, through sheer force of association, are harmed.

yeah THATS believable.

 

[prudyprudestein]

Gay Pride events are a way to make a fashion statement and express yourself. Some like to be more expressive. Yes it is all about visibility and showing that we are not going to hide, be afraid or go away. I love a parade and time to celebrate. The gay community is a group of communities banding together under the rainbow flag. We don't always agree with each other but support the idea that sexuality is not a choice. I conquer with Lady Gaga--"Don't be a drag, just be a queen." Now I must get ready for West Hollywood/Los Angeles Pride, stake out my choice seat. Bring on the leathemen, bears, trannies, drag queen, all expressions of humanity and everyone in between. Once this year's pride is over, I will go about my business of making it safer for those who still are questioning who they are. Long live the LGBTQQQ communities and any additional letter you need to add for those who want to enjoy their self expression, end of repression, and live their life to the fullest.

HAPPY PRIDE 2011 Everyone!!!!!!!

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>But, if that event in the gay calendar each year is practically the defining celebration of what it means to be gay, then I am against it. Alcoholism and drug abuse DO seem to have a disproportionate impact in the gay population. I do not believe the partying of Pride Week is representative of the majority of gay men, so I am eager to say so. It represents a fraction of gay men, but the most vocal fraction.

The thing is - much of Gay Pride IS a party. A celebration. And the way most humans celebrate stuff is via cutting loose, loud music, recreational drug use, and perhaps even "doing things we have to apologize for the next day". Are there people drinking to excess and shaking their asses to bad club music? You bet your bippy. Although that said, I see proportionally less of this at Gay Pride in Denver than I do at any given Saturday night at 1:30 when the clubs close. And certainly nowhere near what I see when a Denver sports team wins a championship (albeit there, the club music is swapped out for classic rock sports anthems).

Lex

 

[BostonPirate]

If all political rights are reliant on cash in campaigns, then blacks would have never received any rights in America. They still are poorer as a demographic.

I have no problem saying that I dislike drunken excesses and revels. That is not the same as telling people not to go enjoy them as they want.

But, if that event in the gay calendar each year is practically the defining celebration of what it means to be gay, then I am against it. Alcoholism and drug abuse DO seem to have a disproportionate impact in the gay population. I do not believe the partying of Pride Week is representative of the majority of gay men, so I am eager to say so. It represents a fraction of gay men, but the most vocal fraction.

In essence, gay culture is appropriated by gay party culture. The majority of U.S. citizens do not participate in party culture. The majority of straight couples don't sit around howling at cheerleader boobs.

The majority of gay men probably are no different than the larger straight population in the social behaviors.

To annually suggest otherwise is to advocate a culture that is not representative.

have you ever BEEN to a gay pride parade?

tell the truth...

 

[BostonPirate]

Please read my posts. I cited this three or four posts above.

Why do you question my veracity? I haven't questioned yours.

It is not only possible, but common for many of us self-accepting, out gays, to not like them.

It's tiresome to continuously be dismissed as not understanding what they are or being somehow not sufficiently gay.

We don't enjoy it. We aren't partiers. We don't feel represented by it.

once again, you are the victim here.

do you understand that the entire parade isn't about YOU personally and that it is meant to have something for everyone?

its a Community, not an individual group therapy session. You put up with what you don't like, you represent yourself and you avoid things that you don't like.

Why do conservatives as you call yourself, need for everyone to change to benefit their needs? is this a real expectation in ANY community?

How do these scenes look to you?

Lee Marcroft and Pastor Barbara Marching in The Boston Gay Pride Parade.

here's a link to their website... http://www.deeringcommunitychurch.org/openaffirming.html



Gov patrick and his family at the capital house, his daughter, the young lady with him, is an out and proud lesbian, and the Governor is proud of her courage.

These gay Itallians in the north end sure look embarrasingly drunk and torn up

Mayor Menino joins the parade and you can see how horrified straight people are of his association with the parade... he's been mayor of Boston since dirt was new...

The gay flag corps of Boston.. those boys are Out of CONTROL with the drugs and liquor... I tell ya

are any of these pictures reminiscent of the images you are depicting here, and do any of these people deserve to be told they need to stay home to make others more comfortable?

no

of course not. Take a look at the crowd on the side of the road... see the messy drunks there?

NOPE

you are generally sterotyping all gay people as drunk buffoons that embarrass you, and it seems to me, honestly, that your myopic view is a result of wanting the world to cater to your needs and not wanting the world to cater to others that you find embarrassing.

Its just not how our community works.