The Original Gay Porn Community - Free Gay Movies and Photos, Gay Porn Site Reviews and Adult Gay Forums

  • Welcome To Just Us Boys - The World's Largest Gay Message Board Community

    In order to comply with recent US Supreme Court rulings regarding adult content, we will be making changes in the future to require that you log into your account to view adult content on the site.
    If you do not have an account, please register.
    REGISTER HERE - 100% FREE / We Will Never Sell Your Info

    To register, turn off your VPN; you can re-enable the VPN after registration. You must maintain an active email address on your account: disposable email addresses cannot be used to register.

Barbara Boxer - not her finest moment

I have an idea

ALL persons running for office MUST have children in the military

Then all of the decisions about going to/staying in war - will be made by people who's opinions really matter

NOT

Boxer's argument is juvenile and frankly not workable
 
Maybe I'm overreacting to Sen. Boxer, but I felt as if she was also speaking to me. Just because I do not have children, does that make my opinions of state and defense matters irrelevant? Does it also mean that those who adopt children cannot love their children, as much as parents who have children of "one's own blood"? I believe Sen. Boxer made a cheap emotional shot at Condi, just because she's the President's Secretary of State. If Sen. Boxer has a grievance with the President, she should keep it as such, and not get personal with his Cabinet. Plus, I wonder if the parties were reversed, if it had been a Democratic President and Sec. of State, and if the senator making the same statement were a Republican, if the media would then be "up in arms" and "yelling" at the Republican senator for making such a statement. [-X "Can't we all just get along?"
 
You forgot to add :

"Who pays the price? I’m not going to pay a personal price," Boxer said. "My kids are too old, and my grandchild is too young."

Then, to Rice: "You’re not going to pay a particular price, as I understand it, with an immediate family.". . .


I don't see any incongruity.:confused:
Neither do I.

Chance, my love, when posting a quote from someone, do try not to spin it in some direction. Give us the entire, unedited quote and let us go from there.
 
Neither do I.

Chance, my love, when posting a quote from someone, do try not to spin it in some direction. Give us the entire, unedited quote and let us go from there.

Spring - sorry u feel it's a spin

I don't

I never said that was the only thing debated - just that IT was unseemly towards Rice (that's one)

and the concept that only moms/dads/aunts/uncles/brothers/sisters, etc. - could "feel" the pain - was - theatrics, non governing, absurd, fill in the blanks

You should always feel free to add to the thread and cut/paste the entire Boxer/Condi discussion - I have no problems with that - if u think my quoting Boxer was misleading . . . .

I don't

And I would also ask that you keep the same requirements for all - I have definately not witnessed that

"Fair and balanced" - remember
 
Chance, you left out half the damn quote so that it would fulfill your agenda. That is spin. Period.

I don't know what you're referring to in your last two sentences above; however, I'll take this opportunity to remind everyone that I was off the boards for almost the entirety of last semester because of a killer class load. Therefore, whatever you're trying to accuse me of doesn't fly.
 
Let's put this entire exchange in context, because no one has. Senator Boxer was trying to get Rice to estimate the potential number of casualties on top of the 3,018 troops already killed in Iraq. Because, it seemed, in the midst of all this debate no one was taking the time to thinking about the men and women we are sending into harm's way. Senator Boxer was trying to get Rice to put a human face on this. Rice, obviously, couldn't give a number and her comments made her seemed detached from the reality that so many military families are suffering. I work in a congressional office and we get calls all the time from moms, dads, brothers, sisters, cousins, husbands, wives who have lost their loved ones in Iraq. They have called our office crying and hysterical--people like Rice don't realize how heart wrenching it really is.

SENATOR BARBARA BOXER: ...And I want to point out to the American people: we are all alone. We are all alone. There's no other country standing with us in this escalation. And if you look at this coalition, the closest to us -- we've got about 130(,000), 140,000 troops. I don't have the exact number. The Brits had 7,200. They're going to be announcing they're bringing home, as I understand it, more than 3,000 of those. The next biggest coalition member is Poland, with 900, and after that Australia, with 300. No one is joining us in this surge.

Do you have an estimate of the number of casualties we expect from this surge?


SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE: No, Senator, I don't think there's any way to give you such an estimate.

SENATOR BARBARA BOXER: Has the president -- because he said expect more sacrifice, he must know.


SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Senator, I don't think that any of us have a number that -- of expected casualties. I think that people understand that there is going to be violence for some time in Iraq and that there will be more casualties.

And let me just say, you know, I fully understand the sacrifice that the American people are making, and especially the sacrifice that our soldiers are making, men and women in uniform. I visit them. I know what they're going through. I talk to their families. I see it.

I could never -- and I can never -- do anything to replace any of those lost men and women in uniform, or the diplomats, some of whom --

SENATOR BARBARA BOXER: Madame Secretary, please, I know you feel terrible about it. That's not the point. I was making the case as to who pays the price for your decisions. And the fact that this administration would move forward with this escalation with no clue as to the further price that we're going to pay militarily -- we certainly know the numbers, billions of dollars, that we can't spend here in this country. I find really appalling that there's not even enough time taken to figure out what the casualties would be. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Well, Senator, I think it would be highly unlikely for the military to tell the president we expect X number of casualties because of this augmentation of the forces. And again, let me just say the president sees this as an effort to help the Iraqis with an urgent task, so that the sectarian violence in Baghdad does not outrun the political process and make it impossible to have the kind of national reconciliation that we all want to see there.
 
^IMO, Lancelva has it exactly correct. Barbara Boxer, with her setup of why she doesn't have a personal stake in this war, was justified in pointing out that Condolezza doesn't either. I don't see a damn thing wrong with that. Someone needs to speak for the families that are directly affected by this [strike]increase[/strike], [strike]elevation[/strike], [strike]surge[/strike], augmentation of troop levels ....... for fucks sake! :mad:
 
Chance, and others, this is an on-topic thread and will remain on-topic. Any post that does not fit within the bounds of the topic at hand, should be posted in another thread, or a PM.

Replies to this message will be deleted for being off-topic. However you would be more than welcome to take up the issue in THIS THREAD.
 
Excellent post by Jackoroe above...to say someone will only pay a "personal price" if they have a spouse or children in Iraq is definitely an insult to all Americans, especially gay men and women.

I think those of you who admonish chance1 about "spinning" are guilding the lily. The portion he left out does not improve the meaning of the quote at all, nor does it make Boxer seem any more noble. If it did, then you would have a point.

To ask what casualties will be only demonstrates how head-in-the-sand the Democrats are...can you imagine anyone in World War II asking Cordell Hull how many Americans would be lost in the Italy Campaign, before the campaign?

A little (but not much) off-topic: This only further underscores that most of you did not see 9-11 as a "Pearl Harbor moment"...that it is still all about Bush Hatred and power.

And if a Republican had told Madeline Albright a similar thing (after Kosovo) with respect to her own personal life (i.e., you don't have a traditional family), the feminists (and their lapdogs in the MSM and Hollywood and the Upper West Side) would have been all over them. Yet more hypocrisy.

Barbara Boxer is a box...of rocks.
 
^IMO, Lancelva has it exactly correct. Barbara Boxer, with her setup of why she doesn't have a personal stake in this war, was justified in pointing out that Condolezza doesn't either. I don't see a damn thing wrong with that. Someone needs to speak for the families that are directly affected by this [strike]increase[/strike], [strike]elevation[/strike], [strike]surge[/strike], augmentation of troop levels ....... for fucks sake! :mad:


i'd also like to thank lance for taking the time to show us what was really said, and as opposed to the republican spin that is going on all over Fox propaganda network.

Its important for us to keep our eyes on the truth and not let the lie machine tear apart the democratic process of congressional oversight.

thats really at the heart of this.... the democrats are engaging in the lawfull job of oversight and the repubs are just undone that they are being held accountable to the american people. I will remind you all that Senator Boxers words were small cookies compared to some of the republican senators comments, so this oversight is a non partisan process.... unfortunately the people they are overseeeing are desperately trying to make it something that its not.

thanks for the research, Lance....

PS.... give the future madame president my love ;) when she gets back.
 
If Dubya decides he has to reinstitute the Draft, He and Ms Rice will probably be hearing from a lot more parents.
Our death toll in Iraq has already exceeded those killed on 9-11.
No one wants more American soldiers killed, but the parents of those soldiers have an even greater, personal stake as Ms Boxer so eloquently pointed out.
 
Chance, you left out half the damn quote so that it would fulfill your agenda. That is spin. Period.

I don't know what you're referring to in your last two sentences above; however, I'll take this opportunity to remind everyone that I was off the boards for almost the entirety of last semester because of a killer class load. Therefore, whatever you're trying to accuse me of doesn't fly.

I have yet to see another "put in the whole conversation" is all

Nope - haven't seen one

I think if that is a requirement, you'll be sending out a lot of emails is all

You can say I'm spinning all u want spring - doesn't make it so
 
Let's put this entire exchange in context, because no one has. Senator Boxer was trying to get Rice to estimate the potential number of casualties on top of the 3,018 troops already killed in Iraq. Because, it seemed, in the midst of all this debate no one was taking the time to thinking about the men and women we are sending into harm's way. Senator Boxer was trying to get Rice to put a human face on this. Rice, obviously, couldn't give a number and her comments made her seemed detached from the reality that so many military families are suffering. I work in a congressional office and we get calls all the time from moms, dads, brothers, sisters, cousins, husbands, wives who have lost their loved ones in Iraq. They have called our office crying and hysterical--people like Rice don't realize how heart wrenching it really is.


heart wrenching is a a real sentiment

no biz in policy decisions

that's the point
 
Excellent post by Jackoroe above...to say someone will only pay a "personal price" if they have a spouse or children in Iraq is definitely an insult to all Americans, especially gay men and women.
Please, Kev. Even you have to admit that the families of dead service men and women pay the most personal price in this war, aside from the dead soldiers and sailors themselves. To suggest otherwise is simply ridiculous.

I think those of you who admonish chance1 about "spinning" are guilding the lily. The portion he left out does not improve the meaning of the quote at all, nor does it make Boxer seem any more noble. If it did, then you would have a point.

To ask what casualties will be only demonstrates how head-in-the-sand the Democrats are...can you imagine anyone in World War II asking Cordell Hull how many Americans would be lost in the Italy Campaign, before the campaign?

Once again, your argument has neither feet nor legs. All Commanders-in-Chief are briefed about expected casualties. It would be insipid to expect that they are not. As Secretary of State, Rice should know these figures, especially when appearing before a hostile Congress!

If any lily guilding was done here, dear sir, it was done by your hand, not mine. Please feel free to reference the citations I have supplied below. I got tired of proving you wrong after a while, so this is all I've included. Links are supplied.

(Posted as found online; emphases mine.)

First to land was the US 4th Division on Utah beach. It came ashore about 1,000 yards south of its intended landing place, luckily avoiding heavy defences, and consequently suffered few of the expected casualties.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/dday_beachhead_05.shtml
Further
IN RECENT YEARS, historians looking into the reasons behind the decision to drop the atomic bombs have been hampered by a lack of understanding of how the casualty projections given to President Harry Truman by the U.S. Army were formed, or even that specific methodologies existed for their creation....

From its inception during the Revolutionary War, the U.S. Army had made efforts to estimate probable losses because its leaders had to know approximately how many men would still be fit for duty by the last battle of the campaign season (i.e., before winter) after casualties from accidents, planned and unforeseen clashes, the erratic flow of recruitment, and disease drained it of men. Disease, in fact, felled more soldiers than musket fire during the Revolution, and this situation remained essentially unchanged until World War I. ^4 While serving as the commander of America's young army, George Washington worked unceasingly to strengthen and expand its fledgling medical corps, and pointedly informed the Continental Congress that lack of proper planning for medical facilities and personnel had contributed to the drastic reduction in the size of his forces during the winter of 1776-77, stating that: "the <page 523> dread of undergoing the same Miseries of want of proper care and attention when Sick, has much retarded the new inlistments."
<snip>

At the Civil Affairs Staging Area in Monterey, California, the JCS Working Group's chief of the Agricultural Section, George L. McColm, was working on plans for Operation Olympic, the first--- and smaller--- of the two planned invasion operations. He noted that "in February and March 1945, the figure used in staff meetings [for the projected] number of casualties we were likely to have during the invasion of Kyushu [Operation Olympic] was 100,000," but added "this wasn't a fixed number." McColm said that "every time the Japanese moved more troops i! n, they had to revise the numbers up." Expected losses during Olympic "more than doubled by about June," and McColm related that the numbers were being revised virtually every week by summer--- sometimes making steep jumps. "It was so common that I stopped paying attention after a while, and besides, it wasn't directly related to my subject area." McColm added that "it was likely <page 537> that they were going up even further at higher [planning] levels because, at our level, we always worked with older numbers."
<snip>

The implied top-end figure of approximately 1,700,000 to 2,000,000 battle casualties built on the basis of the Saipan ratio was slashed down to a best-case scenario figure that was not so huge as to make the task ahead appear insurmountable, and use of a 500,000 battle casualty figure was "the operative one at the working level"^60 during the spring of 1945. Andrew J. Goodpaster was then with the Strategy Section of the JWPC. He noted that Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson used the number regularly.^61 When Office of Strategic Services (OSS) officer Samuel Halpern was pulled back to Washington from the China-Burma-India Theater in May 1945 to assist in the invasion planning, the estimate was given in his initial briefing, and even Eighth Air Force maintenance crews at Clovis Air Field, New Mexico, transitioning from the B-17 Flying Fortress they serviced in England to the B-29 Super Fortress they would operate against Japan, were told in May that "the invasion could cost a half million men [and that] every `Fort' they could keep in the air would mean more boys could make it home alive."^62 Halpern said forty-five years later that the 500,000 figure "made a deep, indelible impression on a young man, 23 years old. It is something I have never forgotten."

http://home.kc.rr.com/casualties/
 
heart wrenching is a a real sentiment

no biz in policy decisions

that's the point
I don't know about anyone else but I have no idea what this response means ...... please elaborate. :confused:
 
Once again, your argument has neither feet nor legs. All Commanders-in-Chief are briefed about expected casualties. It would be insipid to expect that they are not. As Secretary of State, Rice should know these figures, especially when appearing before a hostile Congress!
...... and if Bush wasn't briefed on expected casualties, it was because he didn't want to know or just plain doesn't give a shit! :mad:
 
Remember one of the deciding factors for Truman in dropping the bomb? He asked how many troops it would take and what the expected casualties would be if they launched a ground invasion of Japan (which would be the only other way to get them to surrender). Military commanders expected 20,000-110,000. Truman realized that dropping the bomb would save American lives.

So yes, casualty projections are important.
 
Sorry, sbf, you missed my point. I did not say that Secretary Rice did not know the projected casualties, only that it is not a "team" thing to demand it in a United States Congressional hearing...at least it wasn't during World War II. Back then, most of the country (albeit, not all) wanted the United States of America to win the war, not come home with it's tail between it's legs. But that is most of the Democrats (and now, some disgusting Republicans) for you.
 
most of america wants us to WIN, kev, by withdrawing and negotiating with the world for peace,and not die senselessly for a maniacal murdering president who just cant muster up the morals to tell the truth.

remember peace?

thats the other lie we were told... that this war would lead to peace.

the congress has had oversight privledges for as long as we have been a nation, and to use some sense of misguided patriotism to defend instituionalized dishonesty within the bush admin is neither indicative of an honorable person, nor a moral one. Condi and Dubya will bear the shame of their actions throughout all of human history.

that is a heavy truth.
 
I don't know about anyone else but I have no idea what this response means ...... please elaborate. :confused:

sorry - I keep thinking you guys know me better than u do

what I mean is

the emotional, heart wrenching look at the families, the individuals who suffer casualties during war - is not something the govt/decision makers can/should deal with when making decisions.

it is a private matter - not one that should cloud judgements on national security or policy
 
Back
Top