Barbara Boxer - not her finest moment

[lancelva]

sorry - I keep thinking you guys know me better than u do

what I mean is

the emotional, heart wrenching look at the families, the individuals who suffer casualties during war - is not something the govt/decision makers can/should deal with when making decisions.

it is a private matter - not one that should cloud judgements on national security or policy

We're not playing with little green men here. That is Bush's problem--he can't seem to see things in human terms. It is definitley something that should deal with and many do. And you shouldn't send men and women into battle until you consider the emotional side of war.

 

[chance1]

What is in bold is fallacious. It is no different than condemning all of Islam by Osama bin Laden or all of Christianity by Fred Phelps. Your anti-Democrat partisan hackery really needs a breather if this is the best you got.

Like it or not, BB represents the Dems - the majority now

She is over her head with performances like that

It's a Lifetime movie of the week

not government in action

but I do like the term "hackery" - is that a real word or one you just made up for me? LOL

And trust me, I'm just getting warmed up

JK

 

[texpatriot]

Sorry, sbf, you missed my point. I did not say that Secretary Rice did not know the projected casualties, only that it is not a "team" thing to demand it in a United States Congressional hearing...at least it wasn't during World War II. Back then, most of the country (albeit, not all) wanted the United States of America to win the war, not come home with it's tail between it's legs. But that is most of the Democrats (and now, some disgusting Republicans) for you.

I'm sorry I must have missed that episode on the History Channel.

So far the only comparison that I've heard comparing WWII to the Iraq War is in its our involvement time wise in Iraq, and your posts in this thread.

Last I checked FDR asked for a Declaration of War on December 8, 1941, and got it!

GWB asked for "a use of force" if Iraq didn't comply with some United Nations provisions, and that use of force was authorized by both Republicans AND Democrats. Use of Force -vs- A Congressional Declaration of War!

We're not at war regardless of how many times President Bush calls it that! Remember he's the one who said, You have to keep telling a lie until it becomes the truth, or some such nonsense!

Remember Weapons of Mass Destruction? How about 9/11 = Iraq ad nauseum.

Now if the Republicans had been performing their Constitutional Duties, primarily OVERSIGHT, then elected representatives like Barbara Boxer wouldn't be asking the Secretary of State these types of questions.

There are some many things that I expect Bush supporters to get their panties in a Wad about, but it always is about something that somebody "said" rather than what they "did" or didn't do.

Gawd I look forward to a day when political discourse in this country returns to normal. Back when our country was more united than divided.

Some of y'all are acting as if Barbara Boxer used the "N" word or something.

Get over it!

 

[springboksfan]

Sorry, sbf, you missed my point. I did not say that Secretary Rice did not know the projected casualties, only that it is not a "team" thing to demand it in a United States Congressional hearing...at least it wasn't during World War II. Back then, most of the country (albeit, not all) wanted the United States of America to win the war, not come home with it's tail between it's legs. But that is most of the Democrats (and now, some disgusting Republicans) for you.

Kev, there is no Republican in "team." Remember, you're either "with us or you're with the terrorists." Well, like most free-thinking people, I'm not with either of them, thank you very much.

I used the illustration of expected casualty counts from WWII to illustrate that, yes indeedy, the C-i-C is briefed on those little things--and has been since, oh, what was it? Oh yes, the formation of the US Army.

How was it out of line for Senator Boxer to ask this question? No one seems to know what the hell this "surge" is supposed to accomplish except add to the body count--and the Administration isn't even willing to speculate on that much? Please.

Have you read the thread Croynan posted the other day? Here, I'll link you to it: http://justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137478 Interesting, no?

 

[NickCole]

What Barbara Boxer said to Condoleezza Rice isn't a fraction of what our elected representatives should say to her.

Watching the testimony she gave to the Senate, it was all I could do not to kick in the TV screen.

Boxer's frustration and her words were fully justified. Condoleezza Rice sits there behaving as if there's nothing to be ashamed of in Bush & Co's starting an unnecessary war with lies and then completely screwing it up. Bush & Co, and that includes Ms Rice at the front of that team, is responsible for the deaths and severe maiming of hundreds of thousands of people. Each of those people have mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, wives, husbands, children, grandparents, aunts, uncles, other loved ones -- all those lives are personally and profoundly affected. Ms Rice doesn't have a single loved one affected by these disgustingly inept decisions she and the rest of Bush & Co have made. Neither does George Bush. Neither does Dick Cheney.

It's about time someone pointed that out to that self-righteous incompetent National Security Advisor. Hundreds of thousands of lives are ruined or at least severely negatively impacted because of her misjudgement -- and here she is defending their most recent misjudgement. As far as I'm concerned she's lucky Ms Boxer didn't get up, walk across the room and slap her across the face and tell her to "Snap out of it!"

This isn't a fucking game, it's not poli sci theory. This is the death and maiming of human beings, the ruination of lives, and because Rice and the rest of Bush & Co are so outrageously incompetent, THERE IS NOTHING POSITIVE TO SHOW FOR IT. It's a waste. All these deaths, all this crippling of Americans and Iraqis is A WASTE. And it's time Ms Rice, all of Bush & Co and their supporters, was made aware that she is not feeling the personal impact of that waste -- and that that matters.

 

[aaronp]

sorry - I keep thinking you guys know me better than u do

what I mean is

the emotional, heart wrenching look at the families, the individuals who suffer casualties during war - is not something the govt/decision makers can/should deal with when making decisions.

it is a private matter - not one that should cloud judgements on national security or policy

how can we promote the general welfare of the nation if we are killing the nations children? boxer is putting a face on the bodies. Which is one of the reasons you have draft talk from both parties. They want a face to be put on the death toll, to put human life into perspective. Their hope is that once people realize that it might be their kid fighting a deceptive war they might not be so gung ho about it.

 

[NickCole]

how can we promote the general welfare of the nation if we are killing the nations children? boxer is putting a face on the bodies. Which is one of the reasons you have draft talk from both parties. They want a face to be put on the death toll, to put human life into perspective. Their hope is that once people realize that it might be their kid fighting a deceptive war they might not be so gung ho about it.

Exactly.

Bush & Co, and our media, has kept a human face off the dead and maimed bodies coming back from Iraq. We don't see them, we don't even see the coffins.

Families suffer behind the curtain while the rest of us, those who don't know someone who's died or been maimed in Iraq, remain on a personal level disassociated from the carnage. That's just the truth and anybody who pretends they know what it feels like when they haven't experienced it is just plain wrong. We can sympathize, some even empathize, but we do now know the pain that those family members and loved ones know.

We don't even know the true numbers or the images of those who've been killed or maimed. It's another way our media has failed us. One of the reasons Americans finally understood what Vietnam meant was that Time and Newsweek and Life Magazine, and the evening news broadcasts, showed dead American bodies in Vietnam, showed funerals and grieving family members. That's reality. It was then, and it is now. That's what results from the decisions Bush & Co have made. It's important we all realize that. It's not a video game or a university course on war, it's dead human beings and crippled bodies & minds that have to figure out how to live the rest of their lives.

Rather than that ridiculous weak "You," Time Magazine should have made those who gave their lives in Iraq the "Person of the Year" and filled their cover with pictures of those Americans. But Time Magazine doesn't have the courage to do that.

 

[aaronp]

Exactly.

do now know the pain that those family members and loved ones know.

We don't even know the true numbers or the images of those who've been killed or maimed. It's another way our media has failed us. One of the reasons Americans finally understood what Vietnam meant was that Time and Newsweek and Life Magazine, and the evening news broadcasts, showed dead American bodies in Vietnam, showed funerals and grieving family members. That's reality. It was then, and it is now. That's what results from the decisions Bush & Co have made. It's important we all realize that. It's not a video game or a university course on war, it's dead human beings and crippled bodies & minds that have to figure out how to live the rest of their lives.
.

here's to a much more elaborated explanation, the same point i was trying to convey. 4 am is not my finest hour

 

[chance1]

What Barbara Boxer said to Condoleezza Rice isn't a fraction of what our elected representatives should say to her.

Watching the testimony she gave to the Senate, it was all I could do not to kick in the TV screen.

Boxer's frustration and her words were fully justified. Condoleezza Rice sits there behaving as if there's nothing to be ashamed of in Bush & Co's starting an unnecessary war with lies and then completely screwing it up. Bush & Co, and that includes Ms Rice at the front of that team, is responsible for the deaths and severe maiming of hundreds of thousands of people. Each of those people have mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, wives, husbands, children, grandparents, aunts, uncles, other loved ones -- all those lives are personally and profoundly affected. Ms Rice doesn't have a single loved one affected by these disgustingly inept decisions she and the rest of Bush & Co have made. Neither does George Bush. Neither does Dick Cheney.

It's about time someone pointed that out to that self-righteous incompetent National Security Advisor. Hundreds of thousands of lives are ruined or at least severely negatively impacted because of her misjudgement -- and here she is defending their most recent misjudgement. As far as I'm concerned she's lucky Ms Boxer didn't get up, walk across the room and slap her across the face and tell her to "Snap out of it!"

This isn't a fucking game, it's not poli sci theory. This is the death and maiming of human beings, the ruination of lives, and because Rice and the rest of Bush & Co are so outrageously incompetent, THERE IS NOTHING POSITIVE TO SHOW FOR IT. It's a waste. All these deaths, all this crippling of Americans and Iraqis is A WASTE. And it's time Ms Rice, all of Bush & Co and their supporters, was made aware that she is not feeling the personal impact of that waste -- and that that matters.

you kill me Nick

so it's not a game?

I guess Ms. Rice thinks it's a game?

I think everyone in the admin is well aware of what's at stake - are u?

What about the lives lost should we not succeed in Iraq

3,000 dead will be just a drop in the bucket if that happens

Terrorism is not going away - Al Qaeda is not going away

Those who would kill us for being us - are not going away

Consider that before you lurch into your sanctimonius "the admin doesn't get it" riffs

I think everyone gets it - just not as simplistic as u project

And nice move with the Ms. Rice, Bush and Cheney don't have a "loved one" in harms way. Perpetuating the absurdity which was the foundation of Ms. Boxer's amateurish, off the point and theatre of the absurd moment in the limelight.

My 2 cents - as always

nothing personal

 

[NickCole]

What about the lives lost should we not succeed in Iraq

We ALREADY are NOT succeeding in Iraq.

That's what you don't seem able to accept.

Bush & Co's decisions have been a FAILURE in Iraq.

Bush & Co's decisions have made a bad situation much worse.

We will not succeed in Iraq as long as Bush & Co are in power. Every single bit of real evidence points to that.

3,000 dead will be just a drop in the bucket if that happens

You're right.

And failure in Iraq is Bush & Co's fault. They've called the shots.

Success would have been a grand achievement for them, but the failure is no less their responsibility.

Failure in Iraq, and all that means in the middle east and elsewhere, is Bush & Co's fault. And Senator Boxer was right to point out that, unlike for Boxer and Rice, for many Americans it's more than a political or military failure -- for thousands of Americans it's a personal tragedy, a personal price that most of us don't have to pay but deserves recognition.

 

[chance1]

We ALREADY are NOT succeeding in Iraq.

That's what you don't seem able to accept.

Bush & Co's decisions have been a FAILURE in Iraq.

Bush & Co's decisions have made a bad situation much worse.

We will not succeed in Iraq as long as Bush & Co are in power. Every single bit of real evidence points to that.


You're right.

And failure in Iraq is Bush & Co's fault. They've called the shots.

Success would have been a grand achievement for them, but the failure is no less their responsibility.

Failure in Iraq, and all that means in the middle east and elsewhere, is Bush & Co's fault. And Senator Boxer was right to point out that, unlike for Boxer and Rice, for many Americans it's more than a political or military failure -- for thousands of Americans it's a personal tragedy, a personal price that most of us don't have to pay but deserves recognition.

if I'm reading u right, you are fatalist about this - IT CANNOT SUCCEED - WE HAVE LOST - TIME TO GO - am I reading u right?

If so, remind me not to pick you for my team in hoops - I want guys who want to win, think we can win.

And worse yet, u don't appear interested in winning, just placing blame. What's the point of that? does it make u feel better that u can blame someone for what u perceive to be an unwinnable situation? I don't get it ? you don't get it. To your earlier point on another post "this is not a game" - not a game of finger pointing which is pathetic. We need to try to win this.

Seems to me you have already made up ur mind - we're done - we're dead - Iraq is over - now it's time to place the blame

doesn't work

my 2 cents

nothing personal

 

[NickCole]

if I'm reading u right, you are fatalist about this - IT CANNOT SUCCEED - WE HAVE LOST - TIME TO GO - am I reading u right?

No you are not reading me right.

And that's sad because I know you read my posts and I've made myself very clear over time.

If so, remind me not to pick you for my team in hoops - I want guys who want to win, think we can win.

I'd never play on a team that you picked. Your comments about the people in the public arena that we discuss in this forum prove that your judgement about what makes a winner and what makes a loser is severely impaired.

And worse yet, u don't appear interested in winning, just placing blame.

Ah the standard-issue BushRepublican propaganda. Those who criticize Bush & Co aren't interested in winning. blahblahblahblahblah

What's the point of that? does it make u feel better that u can blame someone for what u perceive to be an unwinnable situation?

I don't perceive Iraq to be "an unwinnable situation." Stop putting words in my mouth.

If you're in the middle of a mess that's been getting worse and worse over the course of four years of decision making by the same group, it's SMART to recognize their role in that. And when that group makes a "new" decision that's just more of the same, rejecting fresh ideas that are well thought out, it's SMART to recognize that their "new" decision is as unlikely to be successful as the same decision has been in the past.

I don't get it ? you don't get it. To your earlier point on another post "this is not a game" - not a game of finger pointing which is pathetic. We need to try to win this.

I'm pointing my finger at the group in power that has been LOSING this and then comes out with a "new" plan that's essentially the same as the old plan. And I'm saying it didn't win before and it's not going to win now. There is a REASON for pointing at evidence, at the previous actions one has taken and what resulted -- especially when they keep doing the same thing and it keeps failing.

Seems to me you have already made up ur mind - we're done - we're dead - Iraq is over - now it's time to place the blame

Very sad that that's what you think. Very very sad.

 

[smelter]

If so, remind me not to pick you for my team in hoops - I want guys who want to win, think we can win.

.... I doubt that Nick or anyone else wants on a team whose coach never played the game, doesn't understand the rules and thinks that fielding 2 guys is better than 5. Half-court shots at the buzzer look great when they go in but not when you're down 99 to 6.

 

[chance1]

No you are not reading me right.

And that's sad because I know you read my posts and I've made myself very clear over time.


I'd never play on a team that you picked. Your comments about the people in the public arena that we discuss in this forum prove that your judgement about what makes a winner and what makes a loser is severely impaired.


Ah the standard-issue BushRepublican propaganda. Those who criticize Bush & Co aren't interested in winning. blahblahblahblahblah


I don't perceive Iraq to be "an unwinnable situation." Stop putting words in my mouth.

If you're in the middle of a mess that's been getting worse and worse over the course of four years of decision making by the same group, it's SMART to recognize their role in that. And when that group makes a "new" decision that's just more of the same, rejecting fresh ideas that are well thought out, it's SMART to recognize that their "new" decision is as unlikely to be successful as the same decision has been in the past.


I'm pointing my finger at the group in power that has been LOSING this and then comes out with a "new" plan that's essentially the same as the old plan. And I'm saying it didn't win before and it's not going to win now. There is a REASON for pointing at evidence, at the previous actions one has taken and what resulted -- especially when they keep doing the same thing and it keeps failing.


Very sad that that's what you think. Very very sad.

Ouch

please don't shift ur blind hatred for gwb/his admin to me

too bad about not playing on my team - I pick a good team - guys that play hard, want to win, know how to win - as for my "impaired judgement", that's a cheap shot - you must be having a really bad morning

what is YOUR plan for victory Nick - do tell

don't feel sad for me - please don't - no need

I don't think the sitch in Iraq is so great - just not willing to foam at our commander in chief and everything that comes out of his mouth - doesn't make me sad

come on Nick

chill a little

I didn't attack u

 

[chance1]

.... I doubt that Nick or anyone else wants on a team whose coach never played the game, doesn't understand the rules and thinks that fielding 2 guys is better than 5. Half-court shots at the buzzer look great when they go in but not when you're down 99 to 6.

good one smelt

love the sports analogy followed by an even better one

 

[NickCole]

please don't shift ur blind hatred for gwb/his admin to me

My opinions about Bush & Co are not blind. I'm well informed and every criticism I level at them is backed by credible source material.

what is YOUR plan for victory Nick - do tell

I am not POTUS or CIC. It's not my job to have a "plan for victory," although I have some opinons and I've posted them on this forum. I haven't seen you do that -- all I've seen from you is repetition of Bush & Co talking points.

But aside from what I would do or what you would do, we're not in power; Bush & Co is. And for starters, The Iraq Study Group provided a well researched, well analyzed, well reasoned comprehensive plan that deserved serious consideration. From their public response to the Report and the "new plan" they've just announced, Bush & Co clearly didn't have even the smarts to do that.

I don't think the sitch in Iraq is so great - just not willing to foam at our commander in chief and everything that comes out of his mouth - doesn't make me sad

Well that's a pity. It makes me sad. It makes Barbara Boxer sad. It makes the families and other loved ones of the dead and maimed in Iraq sad.

A pity it doesn't make you sad.

come on Nick

chill a little

I didn't attack u

Not only is this an attack, it's a dishonest one: "If so, remind me not to pick you for my team in hoops - I want guys who want to win, think we can win." I always want to win and, in the case of Iraq I believe we can win.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Come on guys! Let's real it in here!

Each of you can make your points without taking pot shots at each other.

 

[kev]

Thanks to everyone (especially our fine moderator) for proving my point...none of you leftists see 9-11 as a "Pearl Harbor" moment. I guess you will need a catastrophic nuclear event to wake up. When that happens, I am sure all of you will blame it on Bush. That is, if they don't pick Montreal. Which reminds me, I really have to get out and see Manhattan one more time before it is nuclear dust.

I'm sorry I must have missed that episode on the History Channel.

When I am not down at the Gas-n-Go having donuts, coffee, and dipping Copenhagen, I don't have much time to watch TV. But when I do, I usually don't watch the History Channel. I actually have a degree in history, and that taught me to do two things: read (I prefer paper over screens) and think. The latter has spurred me to form my own opinions.

Gawd I look forward to a day when political discourse in this country returns to normal. Back when our country was more united than divided.

And I look forward to the day that Americans will present a united front against radical Islamic jihadists (refer to my first paragraph above). It's too bad that so many will have to die on our soil before that happens.

Some of y'all are acting as if Barbara Boxer used the "N" word or something.

"N" is not the letter I would think of first when thinking of Senator Boxer. I just think she is stupid.

Get over it!

Not on your life baby doll (refer to my first paragraph above).

 

[unclaimedblessing]

If nothing else, Ms Boxer has stirred up a wasp nest of opinions.
It is wrong for the media to quote the "childless" portion of her remarks to Sec Rice, without including the preface where Boxer included herself.
That prejudicial omission plus the entire context of Boxers comments showed astute political acumen.
She has many Americans talking about this (not only on JUB).
Bush & Co address issues from an Oval Room perspective, Boxer put them in our living rooms.

 

[NW007]

Come on guys! Let's real it in here!

Each of you can make your points without taking pot shots at each other.

I would agree with these statements. Plus I would add that we have carried this on way beyond what we should. I am tired of hearing Sen Boxer's name(though most posts have gotten entirely away from her). Just like the talk in Washington this thread has turned into a blame game(which is past history) rather than trying to come together with workable foreign and miltary policies to deal with the present and now, and the future.

The real problem at the National political level is that everybody is too busy shouting at each other (or running for President) to spend time on really solving alot of our issues. It is always easier to try to place blame than spend the needed time and energy to come up with workable solutions.