Boy dies after parents try to "pray away" his burst appendix

[Kulindahr]

Remember that old saying, "God helps those that help themselves"?

Makes me think about the parable about an old man stranded in a flood. He prayed to God for help. Shortly after, a man in a canoe offers to help. "Nope, I'll wait here for God to help me", said the old man, and he continued to pray. Later, a woman on a raft tells him to get on. "No thanks. God will save me" he said, and prayed some more. Finally, a rescue helicopter came. "Sir, you need to get on before the levees break!" The old man refused and kept praying.

A few minutes later, the levees broke and the old man drowned. He arrives in heaven and meets God. The old man asks, "Why didn't you save me?". God replies, "What? I tried to save you three times! I sent a guy in a canoe, a woman on a raft, and even a rescue chopper, but you refused all of them!".

That's a good story.

Probably as brainwashed as the nuts who left him to die.

I've had appendicitis. It's not the most pleasant feeling, but it isn't so terrible that you're kicking and screaming.

So have I -- and it felt like someone had stuck a knife in my gut and was slowly heaing it.

 

[zoltanspawn]

I don't think those acts are criminal, and I don't agree with criminalizing people for opting out of medical treatment, even for their children.

I see withholding medical care as a kind of negligence akin to opting out of providing food and shelter for children. Why is medical care different than these other basic necessities?

(There are religious traditions in which the provision of food and shelter are dependent on the fiat of grace, but such hardship is usually intended as a practice for adults.)

 

[Kulindahr]

Of course yours was caught early enough to have it removed, and for you to fully recover. I would imagine that the advanced symptoms, after the point when people usually have the surgery, become more and more excruciating.

If one fully believes in Creation, wouldn't they believe (or shouldn't they??) that God created some people who will go on to become doctors, etc.?

Mine was caught late enough the doctors said it was almost too late.

One of the Gospels was written by a doctor. That's one reason I just don't get the idiocy of only praying for healing.

 

[Beachguyj]

And who, in similar vein, is to be imprisoned when a kid of 16 is "brainwashed" with a set of values and beliefs that allow him to have a car and race it along until he kills himself through lack of judgment?

The point is that kid has a chance to race a car wrecklessly and learn from their mistake before it leads to death. But if it does lead to his death it's his choice and his mistake. A kid with appendicitis does not have a chance to do anything but wait to die a painful death while his parents pray over him like fools.

Before I moved out of state there were some kids that died in the town I worked in because they were drag racing and lost control of the car and hit the wall of an underpass. Not only was the kid driving a fool, but so were his passengers that were in the car with him, but it's life and stupid accidents happen. They weren't planning on it. But guess what, his friends will learn and won't suffer the same fate.

Letting a kid die from appendicitis is not an accident, it's a deliberate act or cruelty and in my mind of murder.

 

[Kulindahr]

Disgraceful. Sick of religious folk imposing their own beliefs on their kids, children should be freethinking the subject of spirituality, not being told 'how it is'. This boy has lost his life, did he not have a say in his own life, disgusting. There should be legislation in place making it mandatory that all minors MUST be given medical treatment until they are deemed old enough to decide for themselves whether to recieve treatment or not.

A group in Oregon looked at doing that, but as I recall their counsel told them it wouldn't fly -- that they might amend the State constitution, but federal courts would just kill it.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Re: Boy dies after parents try to "pray away" his burst appendix

These threads sell an underlying message that religion is the big problem in the world, and the "argument" is made by excluding philanthropy, charity, and the vast majority of practicioners of the religion in question.

Some religions hate gay people.

Gay people hate "religion" in return.

Tit for tat. It's not real complicated.

 

[Anders123]

It is only a fool who sees the actions of few as a representation of many. Tit-for-tat is not a justified response.

Anti-religious sentiment is strong on J U B, but one can champion the value of religious affiliation without defending the actions of these parents.

 

[Kulindahr]

It's manslaughter. Doesn't take away from the fact that it was extremely negligent. Children should be able to think for themselves, but in this case it is far more then that. They denied him health care because of their idiotic religious beliefs. Health care that could have saved his life in a serious condition. I always hear about Christians yapping on about "miracles" happening... like cancer being cured through prayer and nonsense like that. Personally, I think it's a pile of bull. Your god isn't going to help cure a serious illness or medical problem like that.

I'm glad their other children were removed from their household.

So much for a f-king miracle.

I know of two instances where a sudden healing was linked in such a way to an event that I can only conclude that it was miraculous.

Interestingly, only one of those cures was asked for; the other was unsought.

Now, of the thousands of times I've heard prayer for miracle healings, I can attest to just one coming about. That gives something less than a 0.01% rate of miracles being provided by request.

This is NOT something to be relied on. And if people would just study their Bibles, they'd realize that even there, the great majority of prayers asking for miracle healing were answered, "Sorry, not in the plan".

 

[Kulindahr]

Their prayers didn't work.

Looks like, it may time for them to reevaluate.

There's the problem: people think that prayers "work".

That sort of makes God a hired hand, kept around to bail them out of idiotic situations. It baffles me that people who call Jesus "Lord" act like He's their servant, at whom they can just snap their fingers and expect action. They pretend they will accept what He decides, but they always act like they expect Him to drop everything and act on their request.

What happened to "Thy will be done"?

Or maybe this batch really is sincere -- stupid, ignorant, but sincere.

 

[Kulindahr]

Can we bring back public stoning just for them?

Let he who is without sin cast the first [STRIKE]sin[/STRIKE] stone.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't see them as a threat to society -- therefore, I disagree about the imprisonment part...

We put WAY TOO MANY of our FELLOW citizens behind bars with NO EMPATHY...

I don't want to live in THAT KIND of SOCIETY...

Crimes are not wrongs committed against victims.

Crimes are wrongs committed against victims and society.

Captions of criminal cases are titled "State v. Defendant" not "Victim v. Defendant"

Know why that concept was first implemented? A king decided that if all crimes were actually against the government, he could impose fines, and raise money for wars.

 

[Kulindahr]

Well I do, it's a needless, senseless death. It's like a kid on fire and parents praying over him to let the fire go out instead of putting it out.

Nice parallel. Disease is a thing of nature, just like fire.

 

[Kulindahr]

And who, in similar vein, is to be imprisoned when a kid of 16 is "brainwashed" with a set of values and beliefs that allow him to have a car and race it along until he kills himself through lack of judgment? He has been indoctrinated every bit as much that he is entitled to power and speed and independence that an automobile affords, yet the carnage of teenage automobile deaths numbers in the THOUSANDS. No threads on JUB about that, huh? But, one wacko extremist Christian family exercises bad values and it affords yet another rant-a-thon about Christianity, empowering all sorts of hate speech and imputations.

My comment remains. MANY, many more teens die from societal ills much more prevalent in this country. This thread is the very definition of propaganda. Might as well revisit how the Jews were ruining Germany.

This is a fair point. But use caution:

It is errant to belittle focus on a specific vice in society by calling to attention more general problems.

One should not advocate solving hunger in the United States because hunger is worse in Africa?

I think one reason so many are sickened by this is that to most people, religion is something that strengthens and enables. Of course there are also the ones who despise anything religious, and so take glee in jumping in to bash yet another example of religious silliness, but most find it offensive because it is the very opposite of what religion is supposed to be.

 

[Kulindahr]

I am finding through a cursory examination of various state laws, including New York and Tennessee, that physicians do not need parental consent from minors of any age if, as the New York statute reads,

And that's actually as it should be: the function of the state is to defend the rights of citizens. The right to life of any individual trumps the right of any other individual to require the first to follow certain religious preferences, when the first is a minor especially. Self-ownership is exercised most completely by adults, and it is the state's job to make certain, insofar as possible, that all of its citizens get to exercise that birthright.

 

[Kulindahr]

The Vatican characterizes canonization as discovering rather than creating saints.

How do you think that parallels "This is NOT something to be relied on?"

Leave it to you to introduce actual reasoning into the thread....

Since canonization involves certifying at least three miracles, it looks like finding a saint is partly a matter of determining where prayer can be relied on more than elsewhere.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Boy dies after parents try to "pray away" his burst appendix

Henry VII was the ultimate master of that.

No argument. But I think it originated with one of the Edwards.

- - - Updated - - -

I wonder if they kept the appendix.

You only do that with books.

 

[diamondstar]

There is nothing unchristian about going to a hospital. Sometimes I feel people should ignore certain religious aspect when it comes to their family's care. God will understand, a loving God none the less

 

[Beachguyj]

Nice parallel. Disease is a thing of nature, just like fire.

Did you think fire was not part of nature?

 

[bankside]

This is one of those cases where we need a hierarchy of autonomy, because not all people's opinions are equal. The opinion that prayer is more effective than an established routine medical procedure is a worthless one, and belongs on the bottom rung.

These people's views should lead to a diagnosis, not any kind of parental rights.

 

[pat grimshaw]

A Child can reach the age of Reason at 7 years old.

Hmmmm? The Age of Reason, you say?

'Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man'