Bradley Manning [merged]

[Telstra]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I believe you

 

[eastofeden]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Listen very closely, I'm only going to say this once, in a manner of speaking.

Yes.

White people hate it when you wear sunglasses indoors. I'm not so blind that I can't (usually) tell the color of someone's skin (although it depends on lighting for me), although I make no promises on any facial features as my vision fluctuates from horrid to nonexistent. Most white people have apologized for their behavior about wearing sunglasses to me after they see my cane - which is white with a red bottom. In other words, I use a cane for the blind because of low vision. Black people (at least so far, knock on wood) have not been dicks about my sunglasses. I also specified white people that aren't in the city, because most white people in the city, surprise surprise, keep to themselves. Just like everyone else in the city.

When I said people assume you're staring at them when you wear sunglasses indoors, I meant it. You wear them 24/7 everywhere for a year or two and compile the reactions you get. There's a noticeable trend there.

And yes, I worry about pronouns. I worry about pronouns because I'm trans. Any more questions?

Now listen closely.....

So...white people out of the city are horrible and have no sensitivity for your challenge?

I have no problem believing a small fraction of them behaved this way but no way will I concede a whole race of people...even if they are "out of the city"... behave in any particular way. When someone says "black people do this...or white people do that"...I always laugh...mostly to myself... because it is ridiculous....and whatever point that they were trying to make is lost on me.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Ugh, no. I'm saying white people outside the city don't like people wearing sunglasses indoors and will get aggressive and really fucking rude about it, including coming up to you and mocking you.

Until they notice a cane. Which isn't always noticeable because it's made to be folded up when not in use. I don't use it in stores because there's no grooves and no steps - the floor is even. So it gets folded and put away. I still have ocular albinism, however, so I still wear the sunglasses. When they do not notice the cane they're assholes, and they're damn near always white. And I say this as a white person. I'm about as white as you can get, being mostly Irish.

And that is all I'm saying. There's also white people who pick things up if I drop something, like the hole in the bag I was carrying last week where my smokes and wallet escaped in a line like evil little breadcrumbs and I didn't notice until the nook went crashing to sidewalk with a thud.

You'll notice, though, that someone picking something up has absolutely nothing to do with how people react to someone wearing sunglasses indoors.

 

[bankside]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

A few points.

For those who see hormones and transgender surgery as essentially meaningless, I think you first need to take into account the biological reality that having an XX or XY chromosome set is not sufficient to determine maleness nor femaleness. Parts of the body can respond in atypical ways to hormonal cues set off by that chromosomal configuration. People need not even have XX or XY chromosomes. Rarely, people can even have both as a chymera fused twin. So their uterus, elbow and spleen might be XX, while the irises, nose, and testicles are XY.

The fact is that people can have intersexual bodies at the chromosomal level, the structural level, or as a result of various atyipcal development sequences or hormonal responses. Indeed some people argue that homosexuality is itself a form of this.

And the other fact is, our understanding is still incredibly primitive. Every year or two it seems a new research study comes out that shows some new observable aspect in our anatomy of the way in which our maleness or femaleness develops. For many people that development just isn't uniform and consistent at all. And for many people who exhibit uniformity or consistency, it may well be that is illusory, just because we haven't recognized enough of the nuances yet that would allow us to point out their uniqueness in a lab report.

Thus I certainly accept, and so should everyone else if they've followed even half the evidence, that intersexuality exists. It is not correct to say that all people are either male or female. It is not correct to say there is an easy and 100% reliable way to tell the difference. It is not correct to imagine that transsexual people are simply misinformed in their opinion about their own gender.

That being said, I am deeply sceptical of "Transitioning." Primarily because in accepting that everyone can have their own particular gender configuration, I don't think a person should then need surgery or hormones to "become who they really are." They already are exactly who they really are. And because it seems to feed into the idea that all people should be either male or female, as long as they are allowed to switch. Bullshit. I can't even stand people referring to the "opposite" gender. Nothing about gender is binary or opposite. It is all a great mish-mash of lovely unique humanity.

The reasons for surgery therefore become

a) to reduce the social burden of deviating from stupid outdated gender binary stereotypes that have been undermined in scientific minds by the kinds of reasons I already described
b) to indulge a certain appetite for cosmetic perfection by abandoning one's own perfectly reasonable body through invasive surgery.

My view of gender is that Bradley Manning already is who he is, and if she is a woman she already is. And if she is something much more interesting, which is an individual who need not be tempted into a boring gender binary, then "transitioning" should be discarded as unnecessary and limiting. Because of that, it should be really of no more significance that he wants to be called Chelsea than if he announced he wanted to change his name to Douglas.

As far as pronouns, in any conventional social situation, if I mistook a lifelong male's gender, or a lifelong female's gender based on some aspects of his or her appearance, it might create an awkward moment if I used the wrong pronoun. I do not imagine I would stand my ground and say "Oh yeah? PROVE IT." I'd just adapt to their correction and carry on. I'm sure I would extend the same normal social courtesy to Manning.

However there too I reject this "self determination" thing in principle. Just as I would not honour a gay or bisexual man's self-identification of "straight" when he gleefully and repeatedly sleeps with other guys, I reserve the same right to form my own opinion of anyone else's identity. This idea of honouring how people "self-identify" is frankly overblown.

So if we must have pronouns that are either male or female, I think what would be most comfortable and authentic for both myself and an intersexual person, would be to agree on which pronoun applies, coming to the same conclusion independently.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

To the assertion that there is a difference between blacks and whites on the matter, I'd not know, but would think it would be regional or to a community's standards in general.

It is regional. That's why I pointed out it was outside the city, and white people in the city react differently to sunglasses indoors. People in the city tend to keep to themselves. That said, where I'm thinking of is rural, and it's mostly white, although that's slowly changing. Which is why I said white people. The few black people I know there and the Asain lady I've met there don't respond to sunglasses like all the rest of the towns. Then again, they're not from there, although I'm not sure about W. I remember when he became our neighbor, but his accent is a bit different, so m'pretty sure he wasn't from the area.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

The reasons for surgery therefor become

a) to reduce the social burden of deviating from stupid outdated gender binary stereotypes that have been undermined in scientific minds by the kinds of reasons I already described
b) to indulge a certain appetite for cosmetic perfection by abandoning one's own perfectly reasonable body through invasive surgery.

Uh, neither of those are the reason trans people usually get surgery. The reason trans people get surgery is because the body is, well, fucking uncomfortable. Here's a personal example - go strap fifteen or twenty pounds to your chest and tell me how comfortable it is in a few weeks, what with the back pain and the constant pressure and all your shirts fitting wrong. Not to mention the misgendering, because if you have tits you're usually called she and her. You're now stuck with at least a 38/40 double D.

It has nothing to do with binary gendered stereotypes. Let alone cosmetic perfection, since there's no way that won't scar horribly with top surgery. I've resigned myself to scars. And don't get me started on 'physical perfection through cosmetic surgery'. No such thing exists when you're trans because you're body is always labeled not good enough as a cis body. There's just no such thing.

 

[bankside]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I've just tried to explain why I don't buy into the concept of "misgendering." And breast reduction surgery for reasons of comfort is commonly performed by many people who see, and seek, no difference in their gender before and after the surgery. Breast reduction to address back pain is different than mastectomy to change gender. The whole concept of "misgendering" can't exist without binary gender paradigms.


I think when we call someone by any gendered pronoun, based on what we observe about their comportment and their being, we are telling them something true about themselves.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I have no problem believing a small fraction of them behaved this way but no way will I concede a whole race of people...even if they are "out of the city"... behave in any particular way. When someone says "black people do this...or white people do that"...I always laugh...mostly to myself... because it is ridiculous....and whatever point that they were trying to make is lost on me.

I don't think you're listening to the particulars here. Anyone who grows up in a rural area tends to espouse that community's values and etiquette. Rural areas, at least in the north where I grew up, are mostly white. (well, mostly grew up, originally from LA). Therefore, to describe them, I say 'white people'. I did not say 'all white people everywhere'. I said "White people in rural areas where I'm from."

And unfortunately it isn't a small fraction. It's a pretty damn large fraction. So large, in fact, that I'd usually rather have the migraine than the dealing with the buggers when I visit my parents, which happens about twice a year for two weeks. I'm due there in October as a matter of fact, and I'm not looking forward to 'going out'. I actually had to cut one of my aunts off and sunglass issues were a part of it. My grandmother, who has to be 90 if she's a day, actually took her aside at the end of the visit while Ma and I were leaving and gave her one hell of a lecture because while I was breaking Ye Olde Sunglass Code, my aunt was demolishing every bit of etiquette known to man.

Do you understand the difference? Rural people in the North, who in my experience are mostly white, really don't like sunglasses indoors. Which was my whole damned point.

 

[bankside]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I don't think you're listening to the particulars here.

To be fair, the particulars only arrived after several successive posts. I had the same reaction as eastofeden which was:
View attachment 980200



Oh really?

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Breast reduction to address back pain is different than mastectomy to change gender.

And there's the problem. Mastectomy doesn't change gender. Trans people, in my experience, don't see surgery as changing their gender. I plan on getting a meta, but that's not going to do a damn thing to my gender, just my body.

Most of us already consider ourselves a gender, our body is just a little fucked. It's not gender we're aiming to change. it's a bit of flesh and muscle and bone that nags at your brain for a multitude of reasons. What I described was some of my reasons for a reduction - I want one not because I identify as male, but because it's fucking uncomfortable.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

To be fair, the particulars only arrived after several successive posts. I had the same reaction as eastofeden which was:
View attachment 980200

Oh really?

Fair enough, I'm often not that great at clear typing, unless it's literature. I also suck at analogies. Oh god, do I suck at analogies.

 

[eastofeden]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I understand that making sweeping generalizations about people is lazy. Ask any racist white person and they will make excuses for their ideas.

Lets take this from the perspective of a white racist who has grown up in the inner city in order to illustrate my point....

I don't think you're listening to the particulars here. Anyone who grows up in [STRIKE]a rural area [/STRIKE]the inner city tends to espouse that community's values and etiquette. [STRIKE]Rural[/STRIKE] Inner city areas, at least in the north where I grew up, are mostly [STRIKE]white[/STRIKE] black. (well, mostly grew up, originally from LA). Therefore, to describe them, I say '[STRIKE]white[/STRIKE] black people'. I did not say 'all [STRIKE]white[/STRIKE] black people everywhere'. I said "[STRIKE]White[/STRIKE] Black people in [STRIKE]rural[/STRIKE] inner city areas where I'm from."

Do you understand the difference? [STRIKE]Rural[/STRIKE] Inner city people in the North, who in my experience are mostly [STRIKE]white[/STRIKE] black, really don't like [STRIKE]sunglasses indoors[/STRIKE] fill in the blank with whatever behavior you want to complain about. Which was my whole damned point. And my point is that you could substitute the term "Gay" or Transexual" and make even more blanket statements.

 

[bankside]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

And there's the problem. Mastectomy doesn't change gender. Trans people, in my experience, don't see surgery as changing their gender. I plan on getting a meta, but that's not going to do a damn thing to my gender, just my body.

Most of us already consider ourselves a gender, our body is just a little fucked.

Okay so then it's cosmetic…

That's the set of perceptions I'm trying to unpack here. Why is anyone's body a little fucked? My point is that women should be content with their penises or their vaginas. Men should enjoy their labia or their scrotum.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

It requires the tiniest effort...it makes people happy and dignified...it doesn't compromise any important principle...and it seems to conform with enough evidence about gender that it's reasonably accurate.

Yup, I'll just call people by whatever pronoun they prefer.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

@EastofEden,

I can't read red letters. Pointing out that people are asses about sunglasses in rural areas is exactly that. Since rural areas in the North contain mostly white people, the behavior occurs by mostly white people.

Do you want me to point out how white people don't tend to help when a trans person is getting harassed in the city? I can do that too. Two weeks ago a trans partner visited with her trans partner and the baby and they both got harassed on the subway going to and from my house, the subway/train harassment has happened more times than I care to remember. The only sympathy and condolences they got were from the black passengers next to 'em. That experience isn't a one-time thing.

Yeah, there's exceptions to the rule, but not a whole hell of a lot o'exceptions. I'm not saying white people are the only ones who harass people - god no. There was that black guy that followed me a block, block and a half and mocked me the whole way about my vision issues not that long ago, and wasn't that fun. Or the black lady at greyhound who insisted for a good ten minutes I could use a touchscreen machine that I had explained that I couldn't see so I had to trick her and ask her to explain how to use it so I could show her that no, I can't see what's on the goddamn screen now quit standing there roundly doing nothing and give me my bloody ticket. Takes ten seconds to confirm a number and give me my ticket and she wants to stand there arguing about how well I can see, because apparently someone with a cane isn't allowed to leave the house without a damn escort.

I have slews of incidents of harassment from everybody. The harassment is roughly equal - but the help from harassment is not.

- I am saying that in my observation, what seems to be able bodied white people tend to turn away when they spot trouble with other people. They like to ignore it and pretend it isn't their problem because it isn't happening to them. A lot of people do this, not just white people, as it seems to be a human thing - but white people are the only ones who seem to be consistently ignoring trouble in their midst. While a lot of people of every race ignore the trouble, white people rarely have sympathies or condolences to offer. And when they do, it's usually because they've experiences something similar on the heirarchal ladder. And I think that's due to a lot of things, racism and a hatred of poor/disabled/trans whatever people. The people who ignore things want to be on top of the heap, and because they have the ability to fit an ideal, they'll ignore your ass in favor of their ideal. You don't fit their ideal, you're expendable, so they ignore you. Nor are these just my observations - I'm including other trans and disabled peoples' observations as well. And it isn't just white people who talk with me about it.

This is, of course, in context - not all white people are aspiring middle class able bodied and cis. But I think the closer you are to that ideal, the easier it is to ignore the nasty things that are happening to the people around you.

 

[Callum]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Should have thought about gender reassignment before he leaked files. Taxpayers owe him nothing.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Okay so then it's cosmetic…

That's the set of perceptions I'm trying to unpack here. Why is anyone's body a little fucked? My point is that women should be content with their penises or their vaginas. Men should enjoy their labia or their scrotum.

What do you consider cosmetic? I think I might have a different working definition than you. Someone's body can be considered a 'little fucked' because it feels wrong. For me, it physically feels wrong. I compared it once (somewhere, damned if I remember where) to the hemangiomas I had. They were heavy and uncomfortable and I wanted them gone.

Or take lower bits for instance - if you had an erectile issue, would you get pills for it or would you leave it that way because that's what your body naturally does? Do you also object to piercings and tattoos because it modifies the original packaging?

 

[eastofeden]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

@EastofEden,

I can't read red letters. Pointing out that people are asses about sunglasses in rural areas is exactly that. Since rural areas in the North contain mostly white people, the behavior occurs by mostly white people.

Do you want me to point out how white people don't tend to help when a trans person is getting harassed in the city? I can do that too. Two weeks ago a trans partner visited with her trans partner and the baby and they both got harassed on the subway going to and from my house, the subway/train harassment has happened more times than I care to remember. The only sympathy and condolences they got were from the black passengers next to 'em. That experience isn't a one-time thing.

Yeah, there's exceptions to the rule, but not a whole hell of a lot o'exceptions. I'm not saying white people are the only ones who harass people - god no. There was that black guy that followed me a block, block and a half and mocked me the whole way about my vision issues not that long ago, and wasn't that fun. Or the black lady at greyhound who insisted for a good ten minutes I could use a touchscreen machine that I had explained that I couldn't see so I had to trick her and ask her to explain how to use it so I could show her that no, I can't see what's on the goddamn screen now quit standing there roundly doing nothing and give me my bloody ticket. Takes ten seconds to confirm a number and give me my ticket and she wants to stand there arguing about how well I can see, because apparently someone with a cane isn't allowed to leave the house without a damn escort.

I have slews of incidents of harassment from everybody. The harassment is roughly equal - but the help from harassment is not.

- I am saying that in my observation, what seems to be able bodied white people tend to turn away when they spot trouble with other people. They like to ignore it and pretend it isn't their problem because it isn't happening to them. A lot of people do this, not just white people, as it seems to be a human thing - but white people are the only ones who seem to be consistently ignoring trouble in their midst. While a lot of people of every race ignore the trouble, white people rarely have sympathies or condolences to offer. And when they do, it's usually because they've experiences something similar on the heirarchal ladder. And I think that's due to a lot of things, racism and a hatred of poor/disabled/trans whatever people. The people who ignore things want to be on top of the heap, and because they have the ability to fit an ideal, they'll ignore your ass in favor of their ideal. You don't fit their ideal, you're expendable, so they ignore you. Nor are these just my observations - I'm including other trans and disabled peoples' observations as well. And it isn't just white people who talk with me about it.

This is, of course, in context - not all white people are aspiring middle class able bodied and cis. But I think the closer you are to that ideal, the easier it is to ignore the nasty things that are happening to the people around you.

I absolutely hate when anyone speaks in generalizations...I even hate it when I do it...and especially when it occurs with race. I understand you feel it is OK to do so...I disagree. We will have to agree to disagree because you are not going to convince me that "white people" behave en masse based on your selective experiences.

Do you know how many times I have heard what "gay people want" or "what gay people always do"...or what "gay people think" from weak ass lazy minded people who think their limited experiences are representative of anything but their own limited experiences and subjective perceptions?

Even worse...when they assign me a position as a gay man I never took based on my sexual preference and their ignorance... and then ask me to defend the position I never took.

(I place them on ignore after that)

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Not en masse - never in masse. But the behavior of the people speaks for itself, at least in my interactions. I also take note of who is able bodied and able minded, who is poor, who is wealthy/middle class, who is cis, et cetera and so forth. And these things fluctuate. I also use statistics and the ever-popular 'don't assume, wait until confirmation". I have to take things into account if I want to survive my day with the minimum amount of trouble. Because in general, people don't like my poor disabled trans ass. I'm not going to hold out hope that some middle class abled bodied guy - white or black - is going to come to my rescue. In general, that's not how life works.

And for the last time, it isn't just my experiences I take into account. There's hundreds of similar things on the trans boards and disabled boards I visit.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I suppose, in other words, just because a bunch of people aren't doing shitty things to you doesn't mean they're not doing shitty things to someone else.