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Bradley Manning [merged]

Should Bradley Manning Get the Death Penalty?


  • Total voters
    47
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Not a single one of my word even hinted that these 2 represent the white population at large.

What I said was there are a few rotten apples that give the rest a bad name,

You're right, you didn't hint it. You stated it, then repeated it.

especially to a family that had just gotten off the boat with literally 10 dollars. Being laughed at because of our weird Asian accent or making fun of our names. It's not an easy thing to get over. Just think about it the next time you ask an Asian person how do you say this or that in their language. Because chances are they've met someone (almost always white) that asked them that and then proceeded to making fun of how funny it sounded.


Explain how you can tell what questions I will ask your family based on the colour of my skin. That must be some kind of ESP or something! WOW!
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

It is not the case in all prisons. The military prison is a system without that possibility.

What are prisons like in Greece? Are they progressive?

Greek prisons are not relevant in this discussion for Manning is imprisoned in the United States.

It is highly unlikely that Manning's request for gender reassignment will be considered beyond a no.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

usa ans rest planet shame a lands wanna get life wen figa wot it is

thankyou

happy porn day
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Yeah, Greece's prison population is part of a well-thought-out approach to welcoming and integrating foreign-born individuals, that includes a healthy respect for diversity and a thoroughgoing understanding of human rights.

Snicker.


Anyway back on topic, I think if Manning had a pancreatic condition, that would be the government's problem. If Manning had depression or delusion or high cholesterol, that would be the government's problem. I don't see why health issues related to gender or sexuality would be any different.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

@luckynumbah7

I owe natives nothing. I did not steal their lands in the 18th century. I owe Jews nothing. I did not send their ships back to continental Europe in the 1940s. I owe black people nothing. I did not lynch anyone African. I owe transexuals, gays, any sexual minority, nothing.

I guess someone does not understand the privilege on the whole we gain from being born white, in countries where we are born with all the cultural, monetary, political and social powers are held by us. You might not have done anything wrong, but the wealth of others have been stolen from them and held by us.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

world news media leekins eeryday
_ ooh nooo _
yea
* wot? *
nothin new

haaaaaaaaaaa
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

It's a matter of first things first. Physically life-threatening conditions get first priority. In countries with socialized medicine, people still have to wait for more critical patients to get treated first.

In this case, it is not a life-threatening condition. The expense would not be paid for him were he not in prison, so it is no more of a priority for the State since he is in prison.

I'm not against state-supported surgeries for sex change, but I don't believe prisoners should get that benefit if free citizens are not eligible. Prisoner is not a privileged status.

I see your point.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

You're right, you didn't hint it. You stated it, then repeated it.




Explain how you can tell what questions I will ask your family based on the colour of my skin. That must be some kind of ESP or something! WOW!

You seem pretty defensive about this. This would make it the 3rd time you misread and misinterpreted what I wrote.

Its not esp. I've never had a non white person ask me how to say this or that in my language. I've had dozens and dozens white people ask me. May be that's how white people think?
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Why would these people give the rest of the white population a bad name if they did not represent the white population at large? How can two single individuals who are white give "the rest" of white people a bad name? Explain this to me.

If I said you give Asians a bad name...it would be insane because you represent yourself...not the Asian race...so how could you possibly give any other Asian a bad name?

Hmm, I see the problem.

Are you going to go over to Asia with 10 dollars and not have anyone understand you? The situation is completely different. If you're going to asia, its because you're on vacation or something. It means you came from better education and economic status.

My family came from the poorest and most uneducated regions of of Asia. When we immigrated here, it was the first time we went anywhere. Our perception was different. This is why I said to a family blah blah.

You are confusing perception and reality. Not everyone came from the same education and economic background as you.

Just try to imagine this. You and your family just came fresh off the boat. A black lady was very kind and helped your family with everything. But the first white people you met laughed into your face. Would you be more cautious or not toward white people?

Seems to me you are awfully defensive about this topic. Its all about sensitivity.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

You seem pretty defensive about this. This would make it the 3rd time you misread and misinterpreted what I wrote.

Its not esp. I've never had a non white person ask me how to say this or that in my language. I've had dozens and dozens white people ask me. May be that's how white people think?

You keep saying exactly the same thing: that the behaviour of white people your parents once met is a reliable predictor of what other white people are thinking. It's ridiculous. What education or economic background is required to understand how ridiculous it is? The behaviour of some other white person does not reflect on me; that person is a separate individual.

I meet new people from asian backgrounds all the time. I can only imagine how unpleasant this kind of meeting would be if I allowed the dumbest thing ever said to me by an asian person to reflect on the character of someone new I was just meeting for the first time.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I see it is non racism for a non white to base their opinion of an entire race on their limited interactions.

But Bankside and EastofEden you must have a problem. LOL.

This thread is a great example of how far people will go to not actually discuss transgendered people and their issues. That is what is pretty sickening.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

You keep saying exactly the same thing: that the behaviour of white people your parents once met is a reliable predictor of what other white people are thinking. It's ridiculous. What education or economic background is required to understand how ridiculous it is? The behaviour of some other white person does not reflect on me; that person is a separate individual.

I meet new people from asian backgrounds all the time. I can only imagine how unpleasant this kind of meeting would be if I allowed the dumbest thing ever said to me by an asian person to reflect on the character of someone new I was just meeting for the first time.

Exactly...I am tired of trying to make this point...

I was thinking though after his last analogy...I spent a little over a year at the end of the Vietnam War working my ass off to evacuate Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and when we got enough we took them to an island off of the Phillipines to await processing to different countries. One time on the island I thought I got off easy because I didn't have to shovel up the human excrement off of the beach in the hot sun and instead I got to serve 7 Up at a Kung Fu Exhibition....easy...right?

I ran out of 7up a couple hours into it...they gave me a picnic table....an open in the back truck filled with cases of 7up...and some cups. I ran out of cups first and there were so many people in front of me all around and so they used their hands or open mouths...clothing...bowls...whatever...and then the 7up ran out and I couldn't communicate anything as I didn't speak the language so I got backed up into the truck and when I stood up there was literally a sea of people around me as far as I could see...and for the next 10 hours I was completely trapped there with this mob of thirsty/hungry/desperate/frightened people...they were offering me their children...giving me useless money to try to buy things I did not have...grabbing my arm...my leg...crying, begging, pleading...I had my first panic attack and it was bad...real bad...and I have had PTSD for years and years since that day often waking up in the middle of the night in a full tilt boogie panic after it enters my dreams....still not sure it is over but it has been awhile now since the last one so maybe....

....and according to his logic I should freak out everytime I see a Southeast Asian person...especially with the accompanying PTSD...but since I view people as individuals there is no danger of that happening.

I know when I view people as the individuals that they are I am part of the solution. It is not fantasy land as others have stated...treating people as individuals... it is easy...really...if you free your mind the rest will follow.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I don't personally advocate that prisoners get better medical care than a man working at the local convenience store, or a gal working at McDonald's.

Then you don't advocate prisoners getting any medical care at all.

Because that's what convenience store workers and McDonald's people get.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

You keep saying exactly the same thing: that the behaviour of white people your parents once met is a reliable predictor of what other white people are thinking. It's ridiculous. What education or economic background is required to understand how ridiculous it is? The behaviour of some other white person does not reflect on me; that person is a separate individual.

I meet new people from asian backgrounds all the time. I can only imagine how unpleasant this kind of meeting would be if I allowed the dumbest thing ever said to me by an asian person to reflect on the character of someone new I was just meeting for the first time.

No, I'm not.

Ok, let me try to explain it again. Please put aside your preconceived notion of what I said and try to understand it this time around.

I understand that in reality meeting a few unpleasant white people is not an accurate predictor of what other white people may or may not do.

What I've been trying to get you to understand is aside from reality there is individual perception. An uneducated, economically disadvantaged family from a backwatered part of eastern asia has a different perception than a family that's from a more educated background. You and I both know that meeting a few unpleasant people from certain common background is not an accurate indicator of the rest of the population. But the said family doesn't know that.

My family certainly never went anywhere before we immigrated here. We came with exactly 10 dollars and nothing else. Try to imagine the culture shock, the insecurity, etc. Now, try to imagine that the first white people we met made fun of how we sounded and our names. Try to look at it from our perception back then.

Many years later, we hosted another family from a different part of asia who just came over here. We took them to a community thing and a couple white folks came by and made very inappropriate comments about their names. They then made a joke about how Chinese people name their kids (just drop a can down the stairs). I knew they didn't represent the white population at large, but try to see it from the perspective of this family.

Do you understand what I mean now? Or are you still insisting on misreading and misinterpreting what I'm trying to tell you?

The worst thing you can do to an Asian person is ask them how do you say this or how do you say that in their language. Because chances are at some point someone else has asked them that and then proceeded to making fun of how funny that sounded to them. One of my first memories in the US was an adult man asking for my name, I told him, and he started making donkey sounds because to him that was what my name sounded like.

Relating back to this thread's topic, this is more or less on the same line as the whole Manning being referred to as a he or she thing. When you insist on refusing to acknowledge Manning's female gender, in some people's eyes you are representing the gay community. You know that's not true, and I know that's not true. But think of how many times anti-gay rights groups have pointed out individual behavior of some gay person and tried to pass that as representing the whole.

There is reality and there is human perception. Sometimes, seeing just the reality is not enough.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

A few points.

For those who see hormones and transgender surgery as essentially meaningless, I think you first need to take into account the biological reality that having an XX or XY chromosome set is not sufficient to determine maleness nor femaleness. Parts of the body can respond in atypical ways to hormonal cues set off by that chromosomal configuration. People need not even have XX or XY chromosomes. Rarely, people can even have both as a chymera fused twin. So their uterus, elbow and spleen might be XX, while the irises, nose, and testicles are XY.

The fact is that people can have intersexual bodies at the chromosomal level, the structural level, or as a result of various atyipcal development sequences or hormonal responses. Indeed some people argue that homosexuality is itself a form of this.

And the other fact is, our understanding is still incredibly primitive. Every year or two it seems a new research study comes out that shows some new observable aspect in our anatomy of the way in which our maleness or femaleness develops. For many people that development just isn't uniform and consistent at all. And for many people who exhibit uniformity or consistency, it may well be that is illusory, just because we haven't recognized enough of the nuances yet that would allow us to point out their uniqueness in a lab report.

Thus I certainly accept, and so should everyone else if they've followed even half the evidence, that intersexuality exists. It is not correct to say that all people are either male or female. It is not correct to say there is an easy and 100% reliable way to tell the difference. It is not correct to imagine that transsexual people are simply misinformed in their opinion about their own gender.

That being said, I am deeply sceptical of "Transitioning." Primarily because in accepting that everyone can have their own particular gender configuration, I don't think a person should then need surgery or hormones to "become who they really are." They already are exactly who they really are. And because it seems to feed into the idea that all people should be either male or female, as long as they are allowed to switch. Bullshit. I can't even stand people referring to the "opposite" gender. Nothing about gender is binary or opposite. It is all a great mish-mash of lovely unique humanity.

The reasons for surgery therefore become

a) to reduce the social burden of deviating from stupid outdated gender binary stereotypes that have been undermined in scientific minds by the kinds of reasons I already described
b) to indulge a certain appetite for cosmetic perfection by abandoning one's own perfectly reasonable body through invasive surgery.

My view of gender is that Bradley Manning already is who he is, and if she is a woman she already is. And if she is something much more interesting, which is an individual who need not be tempted into a boring gender binary, then "transitioning" should be discarded as unnecessary and limiting. Because of that, it should be really of no more significance that he wants to be called Chelsea than if he announced he wanted to change his name to Douglas.

As far as pronouns, in any conventional social situation, if I mistook a lifelong male's gender, or a lifelong female's gender based on some aspects of his or her appearance, it might create an awkward moment if I used the wrong pronoun. I do not imagine I would stand my ground and say "Oh yeah? PROVE IT." I'd just adapt to their correction and carry on. I'm sure I would extend the same normal social courtesy to Manning.

However there too I reject this "self determination" thing in principle. Just as I would not honour a gay or bisexual man's self-identification of "straight" when he gleefully and repeatedly sleeps with other guys, I reserve the same right to form my own opinion of anyone else's identity. This idea of honouring how people "self-identify" is frankly overblown.

So if we must have pronouns that are either male or female, I think what would be most comfortable and authentic for both myself and an intersexual person, would be to agree on which pronoun applies, coming to the same conclusion independently.

Wow. One of the few times i agree with you wholeheartedly.
This thread is interesting. Particularly to hear other's opinions. I just wish we could be a bit more respectful.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

1 day

anyway

thankyou
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Charity clinics give you a prescription for medication, not the medication to fix whatever problem you've got. You don't get medicaid in PA if you're single unless you're disabled or you have kids, and I'm not sure about the have-kids part. Chips or whatever the hell it was called when I was younger, denied my ass and since my mother has an 8th grade education she didn't know enough to appeal. To get the medical I have now I had to drop off the paperwork twice a month from November to April and talked to them in person several times as well before they quit 'losing' it to get that medical.

It's one thing to provide inmates freedom from hunger, squalor, torture, and the other privations attendant with dungeons and prisons, but guaranteeing them care that even the poor are denied is unfair socially.

Uh, poor people do go through hunger and squalor. It's part and parcel of being poor. That's at least half of what being poor is.
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Wow , just wow . This Thread should be on the *New York* best-sellers list .

i believe "Manning" was the original topic , oh and being "transgender" is more than a physical illness , Psychologically it destroys countless lives each year .

So what happened to Manning ?............:confused:
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

This story couldn't take any stranger new turn.

He can certainly pass when cross dressing, but one wonders how much it can help when he is serving 35 years in a military prison anyway.

I do wonder with this guy whether both the leaking of material and the gender issues are merely an attention seeking device
It seems to me that he had to have known that the leaks would be traced back to him and he would be caught
I somehow don't buy his story of being principled about secrets
 
Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

No, I'm not.

Ok, let me try to explain it again. Please put aside your preconceived notion of what I said and try to understand it this time around.

I understand that in reality meeting a few unpleasant white people is not an accurate predictor of what other white people may or may not do.

What I've been trying to get you to understand is aside from reality there is individual perception. An uneducated, economically disadvantaged family from a backwatered part of eastern asia has a different perception than a family that's from a more educated background. You and I both know that meeting a few unpleasant people from certain common background is not an accurate indicator of the rest of the population. But the said family doesn't know that.

My family certainly never went anywhere before we immigrated here. We came with exactly 10 dollars and nothing else. Try to imagine the culture shock, the insecurity, etc. Now, try to imagine that the first white people we met made fun of how we sounded and our names. Try to look at it from our perception back then.

Many years later, we hosted another family from a different part of asia who just came over here. We took them to a community thing and a couple white folks came by and made very inappropriate comments about their names. They then made a joke about how Chinese people name their kids (just drop a can down the stairs). I knew they didn't represent the white population at large, but try to see it from the perspective of this family.

Do you understand what I mean now? Or are you still insisting on misreading and misinterpreting what I'm trying to tell you?

The worst thing you can do to an Asian person is ask them how do you say this or how do you say that in their language. Because chances are at some point someone else has asked them that and then proceeded to making fun of how funny that sounded to them. One of my first memories in the US was an adult man asking for my name, I told him, and he started making donkey sounds because to him that was what my name sounded like.

Relating back to this thread's topic, this is more or less on the same line as the whole Manning being referred to as a he or she thing. When you insist on refusing to acknowledge Manning's female gender, in some people's eyes you are representing the gay community. You know that's not true, and I know that's not true. But think of how many times anti-gay rights groups have pointed out individual behavior of some gay person and tried to pass that as representing the whole.

There is reality and there is human perception. Sometimes, seeing just the reality is not enough.

The trouble is defending the legitimacy of that perception when it is the product of an uneducated over-generalisation. The same lack of education explains the idiots who made fun of the sound of your name.

What if we were to legitmise the ignorance of the people who treated your family and your overseas guests badly? "Imagine the culture shock of meeting neighbours with an unrecogniseable culture for the first time! At least your parents knew they were setting out on an adventure into the unknown. An uneducated person suddenly sees them move in next door and he must think 'Why is this happening to me? What do I do?' Imagine his insecurities."

When it is put like that, it seems ridiculous. It doesn't seem like we should really have patience with his ignorance. But I don't see why anyone's ignorance should be treated as legitimate.

BTW, I live in a bilingual country. That means I've spent plenty of time with the 25% of my fellow citizens who wake up each morning and live their lives with no need of English. My name is an uncommon but very standard English name that is almost unpronounceable in French. I've had French friends think they were calling my name from a distance, and only when I recognised the voice did I have any idea they were trying to get my attention. I've actually said my name to people as a client in a French-speaking store, only to watch a look of panic cross his face, passing me a pen and paper to write it down, as he laughed, because he knew he had no idea where to begin. I didn't take that as humiliation, I know it is just my name. And I educate them. I don't say "Never mind, just put down Pierre."

And I've been asked dozens of times "En anglais, comment dit-on…" or "C'est quoi ça en anglais…" and I've done the same as I try to improve my French. Sometimes this is a cause for amusement. Occasionally a cause of frustration. But it is no cause for assuming all people of a certain ethnicity are ignorant. It is no cause for demanding all people of a certain ethnicity to stop asking questions. On that point I have regularly asked people how to say things in a language I don't speak, and whatever the word or name is, I'm asking because I want to know, and I usually nail it on the first try. Czech, Croatian, Bengali, Swedish, French as I mentioned, and the language of Hainan. I can't speak those languages apart from French, but I can pronounce some words or names in those languages thanks to basic curiosity.
 
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