CA Prop 8 - news and alerts [updated & merged]

[Alpha1851]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

Thanks very much for the smarmy reply. Take the issue to court predicated on the measure being a violation of the Declaration of Independence. Let me know how you make out.

Think before you hit the send button!

I'm actually surprised that you aren't supportive of gay marriage. You're partnered. Obviously you're in love w/ your fella. Your fella loves you. Shouldn't you be allowed, even encouraged to solidfy that bond through marriage. It's important for us to promote family goodness--isn't marriage a big part of that? Your age isn't listed, do you mind stating how old you are. Does your partner feel the same way? Just curious.

Do you ever want to adopt a child, raise a little family. States are limiting that as well.

 

[Piquechampion]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

Their marriages are now nullified. It will be as though they never happened. These couples will have to apply for a Domestic Partnership again. They will have to change their information again. Social Security Cards, insurance info, that sort of thing.

I can not believe that rights already given will be taken away. I always tought that law in the US was not retroactive

Sorry all you Californians, but FUCK YOU CALIFORNIA

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

I can not believe that rights already given will be taken away. I always tought that law in the US was not retroactive

Sorry all you Californians, but FUCK YOU CALIFORNIA

And that will fought in the crts as well. I'm so sorry for not making that clear in my earlier post!!!

I went back up and stuck it in.

 

[jackoroe]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

I'm actually surprised that you aren't supportive of gay marriage. You're partnered. Obviously you're in love w/ your fella. Your fella loves you. Shouldn't you be allowed, even encouraged to solidfy that bond through marriage. It's important for us to promote family goodness--isn't marriage a big part of that? Your age isn't listed, do you mind stating how old you are. Does your partner feel the same way? Just curious.

It's not about the institution of marriage. It's about the rule of law. I have an issue with marriage of any sort being given special privileges by the government. It's not the government's place to encourage social behavior by means of the tax code and other special benefits.

It's the whole crux of our argument. We petition the courts and legislatures based on married straight folks getting benefits we as gay people don't. The answer isn't to expand the discrimination by giving more benefits to more people who are equally undeserving of a government boon, but to not discriminate at all. That is to not give any special benefit at all to people, simply because they choose to marry whatever their orientation.

I live in NJ, we have civil unions, which I intend to avail myself of in a year or so. And the reason is to get my other half on my benefits. Yes, I am selfish. But it's the law, so I intend to take advantage of it. It doesn't change the substance of our relationship one little bit. So other than that, I see no difference.

Good question though!

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

I wish you guys could discuss this w/ cool, calm logic. My goodness, this thread has turned into a depiction of The View. We have to work together or equality is never going to happen. We can't fuck the Hispanics, African Americans, Christians, or someone who disagrees w/ you. We've got to learn from one another, look at our strategical mistakes, and go from there.

Here's one thing I'm curious about. Why did so many businesses donate millions of dollars to the Vote Yes fund. Do you really think they are opposed to gay marriage b/c they want to stand up against homosexuality? Do you really think they gave up ALL that money just to make sure that the queers weren't allowed to marry? Typically, corporate entities are damn greedy. I just wander if there's something deeper here. Something to figure out that we could take advantage from in the future. Maybe I'm way off point, but I just can't see them parting w/ money over a proposition in another state. What was it really about?

 

[KaraBulut]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

Their marriages are now nullified. It will be as though they never happened. These couples will have to apply for a Domestic Partnership again. They will have to change their information again. Social Security Cards, insurance info, that sort of thing.

However, the retroactive nullification of the marriages will be fought in the crts as well.

I'm not sure about this. When a constitution is amended, it doesn't necessarily "undo" what was done before the amendment.

I think you're correct- the marriages that were performed will go to court for a ruling as to whether they are valid. And who knows what the verdict will be?

What a mess.

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

From what I read about exit polls, voters under 25 were against Prop 8 by a 7 to 1 margin. So it's going to take another generation to get gay marriage legal for real. Maybe I'll be able to get married when I'm a senior citizen.

That gives you plenty of time to find a fella. Better get on it!

So, do you believe that gay marriage will become a reality in the future? Do you think there will ever be a federal law granting marriage rights to same sex couples?

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

I'm not sure about this. When a constitution is amended, it doesn't necessarily "undo" what was done before the amendment.

I think you're correct- the marriages that were performed will go to court for a ruling as to whether they are valid. And who knows what the verdict will be?

What a mess.

From what I understand (which is very little), the govt is going to act as if the marriages have been nullified. But I for sure don't know that. I'm certainly not a Californian. I'm getting this info. from two of my lesbian friends who recently got married and are now very, very pissed off. One of them works for the DA, and she asked about the insurance forms b/c her wife is going to have surgery in 2 wks. She wanted to be sure that her wife is covered. Now, she asked her boss a few weeks ago about this issue. He said that the wife would not be covered if Prop. 8 passes. They'll have to get another Domestic Partnership in order to have medical coverage for the wife.

I could definitely be wrong!!!!! And, it could just be her boss or her job. He's liberal though, and it's a govt. job so I'm not sure.

Whether the prior Prop. 8 marriages are nullified will most definitely head to the crts. Someone will have to figure this mess out. And if the marriages are nullified, will the couples become single again or can they automatically revert back to being legal domestic partners. And, can they get a refund on their marriage certificates. Those things aren't cheap ya know.

 

[gdude30]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

What the hell "

The results still aren't in yet. It's 95%

Thank god I slept...

 

[Ninja108]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

This has been a moral battle," said Ellen Smedley, 34, a member of the Mormon Church and a mother of five who worked on the campaign. "We aren't trying to change anything that homosexual couples believe or want -- it doesn't change anything that they're allowed to do already. It's defining marriage. . . . Marriage is a man and a woman establishing a family unit."

Another popular argument... which is BULLSHIT. We are denied thousands of rights heterosexual couples automaticely get. I'm sure many of you can tell countless horror stories about how gay partners were denied the right to see their loved ones or how the families who cut them off came in and took away property and money after not talking to them for years. I'm so angry and disguisted right now. I'm tried of hearing the will of the people. If that was the case, blacks will still be second class citizens, women would be in the kitchen, yet many of the members of this same group turned around and voted to deny us rights. I'm sick as hell of it.

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

^So then, you are pretty certain that this really was about a morale argument and nothing else. You think all those business, from other states, were willing to dump millions of dollars into the vote Yes campaign, b/c they were morally against homos getting married?

I can't help but think there was more to it.

I am disappointed in the money that religious groups put into it. I am a Christian, Catholic to be exact and many of us are very, very supportive of gay rights. I realize my religion has donated loads of money to see the Pop. pass and gay marriage fail. That's really upsetting b/c we could've done wonders w/ that money. We really could've helped a lot of people. We have soup kitchens and all that, but just imagine what good we could've done if the money had been spent to help human kind instead of to take away rights. It's especially disheartening b/c we have our sins to face up too w/in our church as a whole.

 

[Piquechampion]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

Does it bother you at all that gay rights aren't fairing well. I mean, it doesn't have to be about gay marriage, but civil unions and domestic partnerships also routinely fail when it comes to the ballot. Does it bother you that the citizenry views your relationship as worth less than my relationship? What about the issues w/ adopting children or being a foster parent? Arkansas has just made it a no go. Do you think you and your partner are less capable of being parents then myself and Jason?

How do you think we can score a winning season?

Seriously, to have people like you (a straight woman) to stand for our rights, makes my eyes moist.

Thank you

 

[Yves]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

This is, and should be a states rights issue. The CA Supreme Court said it was unconstitutional, so the voters have spoken and changed the constitution. By a 300,000 vote plurality.

Somebody here suggested a federal domestic partner or civil union recognition. Again, it's about the benefits of "marriage". If that's the way to get where we need to be, that would be fine as well.

It just seems foolish to keep running your head into the wall. Remember Einstien's definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Voters are not necessarily informed or prejudiced free. There was a time when a political majority supported racial segregation and laws banning interracial marriage. The effects are not just a thing of the past South Carolina removed the ban on interracial marriage from its state constitution in 1998. Alabama voters repealed the state's century-old ban against interracial marriage in 2000. 62% of voters in South Carolina and 59% of voters in Alabama voted to remove these laws. There was still at 40% supporters of that language in each case even though the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1967 that such bans were unenforceable.
"Alabama repeals century-old ban on interracial marriages"
"South Carolina removes ban on interracial marriage"

"Suffragettes", equal rights advocates and right to health supporters among other advocates have encountered significant resistance among voters through (recent) history. Changes have been made into constitutions not necessarily based on the opinion of voters but on the slow acceptance of equal rights and non-discrimination principles. The Civil Rights movements is living proof of that struggle. A significant percentage of CA voters (52% so far) will go into history as supporters of discrimination and unequal treatment of a particular minority. Decades from now society will change its views (and constitutions) but that won't be enough for those of us who are still unequal citizens.

 

[Ares]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

I'm not so sure about the hopes for future generations. I mean, didn't the current older generation grow up in the 60's when open-mindedness and love were something they were fighting for? Now look at them. I'm worried as the current younger generation ages, their minds will close just as their parents' have.

 

[youngnihilist]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

: At least it was only 52%, not 60% like Florida, Arkansas, and Arizona. And maybe some judge will throw this out. I wouldn't doubt that Anthony Kennedy in the supreme court with the 4 liberals would support gay marriage also.

Realistically it was an uphill battle. Though early polls showed prop 8 defeating and we think, oh California is such a liberal state, it's not in the true sense like Oregon, Washington, or Hawaii. It is a democratic state, but like I said much of the huge minority population is culturally conservative, and getting them to oppose prop 8 is very difficult.

 

[Pushover]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

The separation of church and state in this country has officially failed.

I'm absolutely disgusted right now. I'm so disgusted I'm not even angry, I'm deeply hurt and irritated. Once again, I feel I've had the bible thrust in my face and they've gotten away with it.

 

[Yves]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

Here's one thing I'm curious about. Why did so many businesses donate millions of dollars to the Vote Yes fund. Do you really think they are opposed to gay marriage b/c they want to stand up against homosexuality? Do you really think they gave up ALL that money just to make sure that the queers weren't allowed to marry? Typically, corporate entities are damn greedy. I just wander if there's something deeper here. Something to figure out that we could take advantage from in the future. Maybe I'm way off point, but I just can't see them parting w/ money over a proposition in another state. What was it really about?

I just saw your post and think that's one of the key questions we have to face now. Some corporations decided to fund an out of state campaign risking their image as equal rights supporters (On the opposite, Apple and other companies decided to take a visible stand against unequality) I have a hard time thinking this is just based on religious views when those views might conflict with their own profits in terms of alienating a percentage of potential consumers. I assume HRC, similar organizations and/or media outlets will provide a more detailed profile of the companies involved and their reasoning behind the support of the ban. As a supporter of equal treatment I need to know the companies involved in order to respond as a consumer as far as possible.

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

Seriously, to have people like you (a straight woman) to stand for our rights, makes my eyes moist.

Thank you

Ya, I've gotten a lot of praise PMs and comments over this. And to be honest, it's really sad that you all are thankful for my support. It's what we're supposed to do as citizens! Demand equality! It's what we're supposed to do as Christians! Treat everyone as we'd like to be treated! It's what we're supposed to do as voters! Wade through all the emotions and bull shit and get down to the legal rights which are at stake!

So, thanks so much for the kind words, but I'm only doing what I'm supposed to do. Really.

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

The separation of church and state in this country has officially failed.

I'm absolutely disgusted right now. I'm so disgusted I'm not even angry, I'm deeply hurt and irritated. Once again, I feel I've had the bible thrust in my face and they've gotten away with it.

See, in my opinion, gay folk need to take the opposite view. And Pushover, you're a friendly guy and would be great at this.

Instead of trying to shove that Bible out of your face, take that opportunity to get into the Christian's face. Let them know who you are. What makes you tick. What you do for a living. What types of things you like and dislike.

Then, make damn sure that they know you're gay! Explain to them how their religion has hurt you, how it has demonized you, how it has made you less than a human being. Explain to them how their ignorance and hatred makes you feel. Let them know that this hatred is taking away your basic rights. Tell them what those rights are. List them on out. And you can't have those rights just b/c you've fallen in love w/ a man instead of a woman. You aren't a hardened criminal, you just love someone of the same sex. You aren't Satan himself, you just want to be w/ Joe instead of Jane.

Get in their space! Make them see you. Put a name, a face, a spirit w/ homosexuality! You're just like them, you're a human being. You have the same dreams, hopes, fears, and ambitions, that they do. You're not so different. But you're being treated like you're garbage. Make them see that. Make sure that they know their votes, their language, their beliefs, are hurting another human being. And for what? Over love.

It's easier to hate someone that you don't know. It's easier to take rights away from someone when you are ignorant of the rights being denied and how it affects the person.

 

[Spensed]

Re: CA Prop 8-Gay Marriage Ban - news and alerts

Civil unions aren't the end of the world. Obama has promised that they will be given all the rights and privileges of straight marriage.

Obviously, on one level they do represent second class rights. But, if you look at England as an example, gay civil unions there are routinely referred to as marriages and, in practical terms, there doesn't seem to be much difference between an English couple in a civil union and a Spanish couple in a marriage.

But the real point is that, before long, if it's still even an issue, it should be much easier to flip civil unions into marriage than it is to fight the battle up front.

So it's not the end of the world.

Having said that, the battle should go on on as a matter of principle. I don't find the anti-all-marriage arguments persuasive or real world. It's just idle and theoretical speculation.

Proposition 8 should be fought in the courts:

There is a widespread misunderstanding about the impact of the Supreme Court of California's 2008-JUL decision to not consider Prop 8 prior to the vote on 2008-NOV-04. If Prop 8 passes, then there will undoubtedly be an immediate court challenge by civil liberties organizations and by marriage equality groups to have the vote nullified. The challenge is expected to be a repeat of the 2008-JUN case; the argument would be based on whether Prop 8 is a constitutional amendment or a revision. There has been no previous analogous constitutional case to use as a guide.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hommarl8.htm

If that fails, it should be put back to the voters every election until it is reversed. It took eight years to bring the losing margin down to 4% so, with the increasing youth vote, it shouldn't take that long to get rid of it completely.

Institutionalized discrimination has no place in California or any where else.