On-Topic Chris Hayes: I'm 'Uncomfortable' Calling Fallen Military 'Heroes'

[chance1]

Chris apologized - as he should - like I said originally I find Chris to be a very sharp guy and a good listen - really intelligent - sometimes we get too smart for our own good - my sense is that's what happened here

I totally accept the apology and believe it to be authentic

Interesting to me and not in a good way how many JUBBERclubbers instead of saying "wrong comment Chris - he needs to apologize" instead knee-jerked backed him up and instead made false equivalents - some more than others

and I doubt anyone will apologize for their sentiments

so kudos to Chris for recognizing a very bad moment and apologizing quickly


On Sunday, in discussing the uses of the word "hero" to describe those members of the armed forces who have given their lives, I don't think I lived up to the standards of rigor, respect and empathy for those affected by the issues we discuss that I've set for myself. I am deeply sorry for that.
As many have rightly pointed out, it's very easy for me, a TV host, to opine about the people who fight our wars, having never dodged a bullet or guarded a post or walked a mile in their boots. Of course, that is true of the overwhelming majority of our nation's citizens as a whole. One of the points made during Sunday's show was just how removed most Americans are from the wars we fight, how small a percentage of our population is asked to shoulder the entire burden and how easy it becomes to never read the names of those who are wounded and fight and die, to not ask questions about the direction of our strategy in Afghanistan, and to assuage our own collective guilt about this disconnect with a pro-forma ritual that we observe briefly before returning to our barbecues.

But in seeking to discuss the civilian-military divide and the social distance between those who fight and those who don't, I ended up reinforcing it, conforming to a stereotype of a removed pundit whose views are not anchored in the very real and very wrenching experience of this long decade of war. And for that I am truly sorry.



Chris Hayes Apologizes For Saying He Feels 'Uncomfortable' Calling Killed Soldiers 'Heroes' (VIDEO)

 

[JayHawk]

Yessir, and what I'm bitching about are our politicians who take advantage of our "all volunteer military" who find themselves taking issue with "National Security" policy and Fox News politics back home, while the guys and girls in the trenches want nothing more than to protect their friends and members of their units so that they can get back home and spend a semester or two in their local community college, and find a job because they know that their "VA Benefits" aren't worth shit without a "declaration of war" from the U.S. Congress as opposed to a "Presidential Proclamation."

Don't you find it ironic that Bush43, and his buddy (current Texas Governor Rick Perry) avoided any stints of service in Vietnam because they served in the "National Guard" flying sorties over the Gulf of Mexico?

And as soon as both of them were in "power" both of them were in favor of sending our State National Guardsmen to "Irag" and "Afghanistan?"

Who needs a draft when you only represent 1% of the voting population, and only then if you actually vote?



How could I, or why in the fuck would I find disagreement with that?

What I find offensive is all of the faux outrage surrounding this commentators comments.

'I think that all garbage collectors are uneducated pedophiles. Why else would they be doing that if they couldn't find a better job?'

I watched the hole interview.

The point that Chris Hayes was making was that so long as we have "heroes" (IOW people willing to put their lives on the line), the rest of us don't have to deal face to face with the consequences of our National Security Policies.

THAT'S where I felt that he was "uncomfortable" because he was a talking head actually speaking the truth.

The "right-wingers" jumped on it like a Bird on a June Bug, and used it to illustrate how much "libruls" hate America.

When in all honesty they're happy that America has an "all volunteer military."

They're always going to sing praises for individuals (like garbage collectors) who are doing the job that they don't want their children doing.



True that, but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and let a bunch of asshats use my service (or anyone else's) for their own political gain when most of them won't even allow their own children to put themselves into harms way, then cut their funding for VA Benefits and care, and go on like they themselves are actually doing our country a service.

FAUX OUTRAGE.

I can think of something larger than a size 10 boot to stick up Chris Hayes' ass, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let some right winger do it.

My garbage collector is a pedo? I must be too old I spent the entire morning waiting by the cans on garbage day and not a wink or nothing...

had drinks with a friend who will be in KC this summer - for a 3 week show

perhaps I should join him

but you in NYC sorta makes ......... MORE sense?

New York makes more sense UNLESS you are planning on a get together in KC for a few jubbers extraordinaire. The plans include a trip up to Council Bluffs Iowa outside of Omaha for a trip to the casino AND a Barenaked Ladies concert series with Blues Traveler and Cracker on Thursday August 9th. Then a trip through the various gay bars in KC on Friday and Saturday. Then New York City (say that with a drawl) don't make much sense do it Yankee?

I haven't really pushed it elsewhere but I suppose it could be a good Jubber CE&P meetup.

Simply enlisting in the Army and getting sent 7,000 miles away from your home only to step on an ied doesn't make one a hero..The word is overused these days where it almost has no meaning anymore..

Every cop and fireman who died in 9-11 was not a hero.Some of them had no idea what was going on and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.Sucks,but it doesn't make them automatic heros.

A hero is a guy who jumps on a grenade to save his buddies.Not every schmuck who happens to get in a bullet in the neck while walking to go take a shit is a hero.

Kenny I dont think those acts make you a hero. I think the selflessness with which you sqarely place yourself directly between danger and those you love is the hero part. You could have a 30 years career in peacetime and be called a armchair warrior or you could be a cop in a small town whose biggest case was speeding in double digits. Regardless those folks take and oath and place themselves in harms way.

That DOES not mean our policy makers and decision makers do the right thing but I have no doubt those men and women do. I have seen rapist and murderers in my midst in the last 21 years. We hunted them like dogs to get them out of our ranks. But by and large the vast group of people are not only willing but incredibly able to do what needs to be done.

Oh and as an Aside you should plan to bring your ass to KC in August.... read above.

Your friend getting working the All-Star Game? My house is big.

Jack same invite goes to you for any and all of the event. Nice little mini vacation and after meeting some jubbers in person i find it is different to argue with a person rather than a online entity. So come on out and join us at least one night or all of them if you like that kinda music.

That's not fair..........how come you're inviting Chance to KC and not me??

I want to meet JayHawk

I will be signing autographs in india ink with a tattoo needle and only on asses. So feel free to fly on out. You see the info above. Just be ready.

This offer goes to anyone in the Midwest region or hell if you wanna fly any Jubber. I could probably work a hotel deal if I get enough interest.

On sunday of that weekend I will have Sumo suits and we will watch face the nation while having it out face to face....

okay maybe not but it would be fun to watch.....

 

[Sausy]

I read Chris Haye's apology and found it very heartfelt,very genuine.In World War II the whole country sacrificed for the war effort,today there is a civiian/military divide and so many assumptions and stereotypes get made and play themselves out,from a lot of corners.I'm glad Chris realized exactly what he was coming across as....we can have all different perspectives on the wisdom of policies that have us go to war but no doubt those fallen,and the vast majority of those who serve,are people we can have a great amount of pride and admiration for their dedication to this country.

 

[chance1]

^ the topic is what Chris said on air

and now his apology

please try to keep up

by all means start another thread about afghanistan .........

 

[Rolyo85]

I really can't believe that this is dubbed "knee jerk" when the opposite side is doing exactly that. I find the drive to serve your country admirable and worthy of respect. I also think that it doesn't make you a hero. And that someone was pressured into apologizing for such a mild opinion, is absolutely repulsive to me...

 

[chance1]

I really can't believe that this is dubbed "knee jerk" when the opposite side is doing exactly that. I find the drive to serve your country admirable and worthy of respect. I also think that it doesn't make you a hero. And that someone was pressured into apologizing for such a mild opinion, is absolutely repulsive to me...

if you watched Chris Hayes (and you should if you don't) you'd know that he's the type that probably reviewed the tape - saw the feedback and realized that probably what he meant to say came off as something else

he's an authentic very liberal thinker who realizes that men who DIE protecting our country is a sacred thing - not one to be a wordsmith about

He and his show debate issues on a very high level and often when doing so, you can get twisted

If you watch the video at the beginning he's practically stuttering

reasonable people realize that what he said was at best DUMB and at worst CYNICAL - and that he shouldn't have gone there

you should realize that

 

[palbert]

MSNBC's Chris Hayes Apologizes for Anti-Fallen Military Hero Remark | NewsBusters.org

He apologized.

 

[Kulindahr]

Simply enlisting in the Army and getting sent 7,000 miles away from your home only to step on an ied doesn't make one a hero..The word is overused these days where it almost has no meaning anymore..

Every cop and fireman who died in 9-11 was not a hero.Some of them had no idea what was going on and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.Sucks,but it doesn't make them automatic heros.

A hero is a guy who jumps on a grenade to save his buddies.Not every schmuck who happens to get in a bullet in the neck while walking to go take a shit is a hero.

This is a good start.

Hero, as with an word designating something exemplary and far above the norm, cannot apply to everyone or it loses its meaning. That's tragic for all, because then we're left with no way to single out those whose actions truly were above and beyond their job description, above and beyond what anyone would ever expect.

The man who crawled up the gully to draw enemy fire and keep their attention while his buddies stormed around the other way was a hero; his buddies were just doing their jobs.
The man who dove to catch the grenade and throw it back while his buddies took cover was a hero; his buddies were just doing their jobs.
The pilot who aimed his plane right for the anti-aircraft installation to draw fire while his wounded wingman cleared the area was a hero; the flight of two orbiting overhead to escort him back if he survived were just doing their jobs.

The hero is the one at whom his comrades look and say, with admiration, "That is one stupid fuck".


I once read a short story that was very to the point here, and wish I could recall title or author, but I can't. But to apply it to this situation, the general in the story would be welcoming home those who'd served elsewhere, and to those who'd actually been under fire, he'd say, "Welcome home, soldier". Those wounded, those fallen, might be distinguished for special compliment, but for those in that place -- and we would do well to emulate them -- the highest compliment that could be paid to a man was to call him "soldier".

 

[Rolyo85]

if you watched Chris Hayes (and you should if you don't) you'd know that he's the type that probably reviewed the tape - saw the feedback and realized that probably what he meant to say came off as something else

he's an authentic very liberal thinker who realizes that men who DIE protecting our country is a sacred thing - not one to be a wordsmith about

He and his show debate issues on a very high level and often when doing so, you can get twisted

If you watch the video at the beginning he's practically stuttering

reasonable people realize that what he said was at best DUMB and at worst CYNICAL - and that he shouldn't have gone there

you should realize that

I would say the "best" would be "inconsiderate", not "dumb". I know what you're saying, and I realize that it was the wrong time to say something that most people are too dumb to actually compute without a knee-jerk response. I still think he was right (or rather, I agree with Kulindahr's post above), but I also agree that it was the wrong time to say it, and probably a topic one needs to stay away from...

- - - Updated - - -

if you watched Chris Hayes (and you should if you don't) you'd know that he's the type that probably reviewed the tape - saw the feedback and realized that probably what he meant to say came off as something else

he's an authentic very liberal thinker who realizes that men who DIE protecting our country is a sacred thing - not one to be a wordsmith about

He and his show debate issues on a very high level and often when doing so, you can get twisted

If you watch the video at the beginning he's practically stuttering

reasonable people realize that what he said was at best DUMB and at worst CYNICAL - and that he shouldn't have gone there

you should realize that

I would say the "best" would be "inconsiderate", not "dumb". I know what you're saying, and I realize that it was the wrong time to say something that most people are too dumb to actually compute without a knee-jerk response. I still think he was right (or rather, I agree with Kulindahr's post above), but I also agree that it was the wrong time to say it, and probably a topic one needs to stay away from...

 

[Kulindahr]

^
I'd say it's a topic that should be pondered -- but in a public statement at this moment? That's just idiocy. If he wants to impact the use of the word "hero", the way to do it is to not use it, but rather to build up the word "soldier", or even invent a new word (rather, dredge on up from Greek or Latin or even Swahili) and use it in an address at a military academy or something.

 

[chance1]

rolyo & kuli

I'd say this is a sort of compromise on positions

by the 3 of us

imagine that

 

[JayHawk]

Hmm deafening silence would be a No?

 

[Rolyo85]

No, a "no" would be a no.

 

[Spiff]

I still will watch Chris each weekend morning. I do agree that he had a lapse in judgement; providing easy fodder to conservatives whom are only capable of one-dimensional thinking. But he did preface this whole thing on Sunday with a big question about how one defines hero, and he did say he has the utmost respect for all those who serve, regardless of what his definition is. Obvious to me he meant no disrespect, but still should have avoided it knowing conservatives would rip him a new one and would associate all liberals to his way of thinking.

 

[Ninja108]

On one hand,I understood what he was trying to say. The phrase hero is used far too frequently for its own good.
On the other hand,using men and women who put their lives on the line regardless of what we think of the wars being fought,you don't go there,you just don't.

 

[White Eagle]

Here ya go Jack. This must make your week.
The guy just cannot win. There is a link to his apology.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandview...he_tyranny_of_personal_experience/#paragraph3

NBC Throws Chris Hayes Under The Bus: Social Distance and the Tyranny of Personal Experience

I wrote a bit about the Chris Hayes flap over a Mother Jones earlier. I think he was perfectly respectful and thoughtful as always and that his point was well taken. But his apology opened up a new topic that I think is worth exploring:

 

[chance1]

Here ya go Jack. This must make your week.
The guy just cannot win. There is a link to his apology.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandview...he_tyranny_of_personal_experience/#paragraph3

read it

the ONLY person who matters here is Matt Lauer - and he was supportive of Chris and defended him/his motives

Donny Deutsch calling Chris names? about his appearance? has Donny looked in the mirror lately? anyone who has listened to Donny's bullshit knows HE'S the asshole - he's a no nothing bully who thinks he's relevant when that time was long ago

Chris Hayes is an authentic and sharp minded progressive thinker. If the world had MORE Chris Hayes's, we'd have a more intelligent dialogue .........

Yep - he goofed here - and it pissed me off - but I'm over it because it's my strong opinion that he was not being disrespectful intentionally - he just made a mistake - we all do

His body of work speaks for itself

give him a look see - hard to keep up frankly as he's a whiz - but it's good stuff

donny deutsch ??? douche

 

[White Eagle]

I like Chris, and am over it too. Sorry he made the err. I guess this means he is losing his weekends.

 

[chance1]

^ i have not read anything about him losing his show

I'd be shocked if that's the case

 

[White Eagle]

I hope he doesn't lose his show. I like it.
and who is this Donny Deutsch? is he the original Deutsch bag?