Christian Arsonist Destroys Gay Couples Home In North Carolina

[Keelandson]

Those who really do love everything in Creation all the more, because they see Him in everything.

Even Republicans?

Some.

Hah! You fell into my neatly laid trap! You agree that God creates evil!

 

[Kulindahr]

Explain why voting and polling results don't count. At least do us the favor of explaining this bit.

You keep claiming that christians at large are supportive of our rights. Yet, you have provided absolutely no evidence other than your word. You see, I live in the real world. I rely on evidence. What's wrong with voting and polling results as evidence?

I explained it. You ignore explanations.

Do you really believe that Americans love Republicans who are ignorant and bigoted?
Do you really think that the vast majority of Californians think marriage is only supposed to be between a man and a woman?

 

[Kulindahr]

I've been debating christians for years. One of the hardest thing to do is to get them to admit that god created evil. They claim that god created everything 6,000 years ago, but for some damn reason they won't admit that this meant that god also created evil. Even when I have evidence outside of my own word.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Have you bothered to read that in the original?

And are you aware that you're citing a distinct minority position among Christians?

 

[Telstra]

I've been debating christians for years. One of the hardest thing to do is to get them to admit that god created evil. They claim that god created everything 6,000 years ago, but for some damn reason they won't admit that this meant that god also created evil. Even when I have evidence outside of my own word.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.[/i]

i don't know this, yeah interesting to know.

This should make the religious think harder but i guess they always find accuses .

 

[Kulindahr]

There you go again, giving us your fantasy land.

Those of us who have been talking and debating with christians for years know better. This is not a distinct minority position. Christians are somehow afraid that if they admit god created evil that god would strike them down or something. I've seen some rather impressive mental aerobics to explain away why/how evil could exist without god creating it AND that god created everything in the first place.

Given that you don't know what Christians believe about the age of the earth, I'm not impressed by your grasp of anything.

What you're doing with the evil question is like asking scientists to falsify their data. You want them to be dishonest.

As for your verse, try reading it in modern English:

I am the Lord, and there is no other,
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.

 

[Kulindahr]

Haha, my head just exploded from irony. After saying it's hard as hell to get a christian to admit god created evil, you went ahead and showed all of us this very phenomenon.

Ok, listen very carefully. God created everything, oui? Unless you want to say no, then evil was indeed created by god.

Evil is not a created thing.

I won't be trapped by your linear mind games.

 

[Kulindahr]

Let's see if you're qualified to be in this discussion:

describe the general parameters of a mathematical demonstration that God can be both as small as the smallest unit of measure and simultaneously larger than the universe.

 

[Telstra]

Evil is not a created thing.

I won't be trapped by your linear mind games.

so good is a created thing?

ahh too complicated.
Lets answer the basic question then. What is god ?

 

[Kulindahr]

so good is a created thing?

ahh too complicated.
Lets answer the basic question then. What is god ?

God is the self-generating one.

 

[construct]

Haha, my head just exploded from irony. After saying it's hard as hell to get a christian to admit god created evil, you went ahead and showed all of us this very phenomenon.

Ok, listen very carefully. God created everything, oui? Unless you want to say no, then evil was indeed created by god.

Before I point you to a little different route, let me tell you that I am no longer a Christian.

The Bible wasn't written all at once, and we can see strata in it as the theology of the writers shifted. We can also see flat out contradictions at those historical points when the shifts were taking place.

In the earliest strata, evil was not personified, and it wasn't really separate from God. God sent the flood that killed all the little children in the world. God inspired David to take a census then punished all of Israel for his doing it. God sent two she-bears out of the woods to slay forty-two boys who were taunting one of the prophets.

Later evil came to have a more and more separate existence. There was a destroying angel God sent to kill the firstborn of every household in Egypt. Then there was an accuser who could coax God to try Job by doing all sorts of dreadful things to him and his family.

Finally there is a distinctly separate personality--Satan--with his very own name who was an enemy of God.

Later, after the Bible, Christians became considerably exercised over this problem. Some came to assert that evil is merely the absence of good without a separate existence at all. It is merely absolute negation.

Take your pick. All these views find support in the Bible. No one can believe all of them. Every Christian has to choose one or another of them in any given situation, and he is not always consistent in his own mind or expression.

So of course, God hates sin. He even hates sinners. To say that he separates the sin from the sinner, hating the one and loving the other, really is to make an arbitrary choice. So in a sense, Fred Phelps is right.

 

[Kyanimal]

Again, my experience is that it will be hard as hell to get any christian to admit all of these even though they are written right there in black and white for all to see in the bible.

And, all of that is Old Testament, before Christ, and his subsequent followers, the Christians.

Perhaps "The Son" managed to get "The Father" to chillax, a bit, through his own teachings?

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[construct]

And, all of that is Old Testament, before Christ, and his subsequent followers, the Christians.

Perhaps "The Son" managed to get "The Father" to chillax, a bit, through his own teachings?

And so here we have yet another view (or constellation of views) of the relationship between God and the evil we see manifest in this world, this time caught up into a doctrine of the Trinity itself. In its most extreme form we find a loving Son appeasing or in conflict with a hate-filled or indifferent Father. Some versions of this approach are consistent with orthodox Christianity; some are not.

In any case, it is possible to view the more violent expressions of Christian faith to be a living out of authentic biblical or post-biblical Christian teachings.

As for Jesus, he himself is a problematic figure. Jesus actually condemned the Pharisees who, of all the Jewish sects of his day, taught views closest to his own. See Matthew 23. Christianity is not at its base refraining from judgment. Jesus himself made judgments, and his followers made theirs as well and encouraged them after his death. Paul said, "I judge all things," and "if you cannot judge each other, how will you be able to judge angels."

Another example--During holy week, Jesus passed a fig tree by the road from Bethany to Jerusalem. Angered at not finding figs on the tree (when they were out of season), he cursed the tree. On their way back that night, the disciples noticed that the fig tree was now withered and dead.

When Jesus was asked about Pilate's having pulled down a tower intentionally killing a number of Jews, Jesus did not condemn Pilate. Instead he used it as an object-lesson. That will happen to you if you don't repent.

Problematic views of evil or destructive deeds are not confined to the Hebrew scriptures or the writings of Jesus' immediate followers. They are present in the image of Jesus presented in the gospels themselves. So-called "red letter Christians" (those who accept the words of Jesus only) really don't have any easier time of it than those who take a more conventional approach to the Bible.

I say all this (along with my previous post) knowing full-well that the arsonist(s) who is the subject of this thread may or may not be Christian. But regardless of whether they were, there are still grounds for conflicting judgments about the act within the Christian tradition itself.

 

[bike10]

I know you had message from God to arson the gays house.

 

[construct]

I know you had message from God to arson the gays house.

Shhh! I wasn't going to tell anyone.

 

[Keelandson]

This thread might be better served if moved to the god forum — so I could ignore it and never be tempted to "contribute" to it again.

GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN!

 

[construct]

This thread might be better served if moved to the god forum — so I could ignore it and never be tempted to "contribute" to it again.

GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN!

Oh, Keelandson. You know we can't do that. We can't move a thread about an arson into the "no flame zone."

Besides, it's more fun here. The conversation can be more lively, honest, and heated. I certainly don't want flaming taken out of my arsenal. Why, despite how cool I try to be in my attitude, my contempt knows no bounds.

 

[Keelandson]

Oh, Keelandson. You know we can't do that. We can't move a thread about an arson into the "no flame zone."

Edit: My reply deleted because I just had a "duh" moment.

 

[Kyanimal]

HA! ALL you Guys are a lot of Fun, even when we're talking about something like this!

Had some recent thoughts, though ...

Since they haven't caught the arsonist, what if it was one of the homeowners, that torched their own place, because they were REALLY PISSED at the other one? Or, maybe they both decided they needed the insurance money?? Or, someone that one of them had been "playing with" found out the guy was Married???

I know! "Stupid" thought(s)! But ... you never know ...

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[Kulindahr]

In any case, it is possible to view the more violent expressions of Christian faith to be a living out of authentic biblical or post-biblical Christian teachings.

No, it isn't. The strongest thing Jesus approved of was self-defense.

As for Jesus, he himself is a problematic figure. Jesus actually condemned the Pharisees who, of all the Jewish sects of his day, taught views closest to his own. See Matthew 23. Christianity is not at its base refraining from judgment. Jesus himself made judgments, and his followers made theirs as well and encouraged them after his death. Paul said, "I judge all things," and "if you cannot judge each other, how will you be able to judge angels."

This is devious. I'm sure you know that Greek had at least three words for judgment, and here you're mixing the one that meant "to assess" with the one meaning "to condemn".

Another example--During holy week, Jesus passed a fig tree by the road from Bethany to Jerusalem. Angered at not finding figs on the tree (when they were out of season), he cursed the tree. On their way back that night, the disciples noticed that the fig tree was now withered and dead.

I've never figured that one out.

When Jesus was asked about Pilate's having pulled down a tower intentionally killing a number of Jews, Jesus did not condemn Pilate. Instead he used it as an object-lesson. That will happen to you if you don't repent.

There's no such incident in the Bible. The closest is in Luke, where Jesus spoke of a tower that fell on workmen, but there's no indication Pilate pulled it down.
Besides, what's wrong with using events as object lessons?

Problematic views of evil or destructive deeds are not confined to the Hebrew scriptures or the writings of Jesus' immediate followers. They are present in the image of Jesus presented in the gospels themselves. So-called "red letter Christians" (those who accept the words of Jesus only) really don't have any easier time of it than those who take a more conventional approach to the Bible.

Jesus never ordered slaughter, in fact He explicitly rejected it. He never advocated violence, except as self-defense.

I say all this (along with my previous post) knowing full-well that the arsonist(s) who is the subject of this thread may or may not be Christian. But regardless of whether they were, there are still grounds for conflicting judgments about the act within the Christian tradition itself.

Again -- no, there aren't. The old wine and wineskins are gone. Judgment in the form of physical punishment belongs to Caesar; Jesus' kingdom is not of this world.

 

[Keelandson]

I've never figured that one out.

Kraft had bought it.