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Cordoba Mosque at 9/11 Ground Zero

I feel I should offer my perspective here.

I was working in One World Trade Center at the time of the attacks. I escaped death by my decision that morning to come in at 10 (as I had as a contractor) rather than at 8:30 (as I had since becoming an employee). I worked on a floor right in the center of the hole where the first plane went in.

300 of my coworkers died that day, including several people who were friendly to me and whom I personally liked. Because phones were down and people were marooned far from home (the trains and tunnels were shut down for security reasons), it took a long time to verify the miraculous fact: none of the people really close to me had died, none of my old friends...only my new ones.

But that wasn't what broke me, and sent me into a deepening depression I still struggle with.

The response of my fellow Americans made me ashamed. They attacked their Muslim neighbors, and their non-Muslim Arab neighbors, and their Sikh neighbors (even though no Sikh had anything to do with the attacks, the turbans were enough).

Living where I do, I know a number of Muslims. On 9/11, the owner of a Middle Eastern restaurant here in Hoboken called a bunch of men from his mosque and rushed down to Ground Zero to volunteer. When they were told the place was overflowing with volunteers (as it was), they raised money instead. That restaurant proudly displays one of the American flags flown at Ground Zero during the rescue period.

Another of my friends is an Albanian Muslim, raised right here in New Jersey. He looks, acts, sounds, and IS exactly like any other young adult from New Jersey. (The exceptions are that he didn't get drunk on his 21st birthday - or ever - and fasts during Ramadan. His favorite fast-breaking food? A peanut butter and jelly sandwich.)

Because he's white, he's often been the "surprise" Muslim in his classes, and heard people say some phenomenally stupid things about Muslims and Islam. "Wait a minute! I'm a Muslim, and I'm not like that," he often has to say, and their response is often "You're not a Muslim." He's not a brown-skinned turban-wearing psychopath, you see, so he can't be a Muslim.

Let's compare some other terrorist attacks, hmm? Tim McVeigh has already been brought up; he was a white guy from Michigan, like me. Funny, I didn't get any hate stares on the street after the OKC bombing, which at the time was the worst terrorist attack on American soil. He was a Christian, but no one says that Christian churches should not be allowed near the OKC memorial.

The terrorists who have been blowing up abortion clinics and shooting doctors are self-proclaimed Christians also, but no one throws rocks at men in reversed collars or people wearing crosses because of this, not even the family members of the people they've murdered, not even the horribly-scarred survivors of the fires they set.

But, you will say, those people aren't good Christians. They aren't good examples of Christianity. You know what? That's exactly what my Muslim friends say about Osama bin Laden and his gang of perverts. The behavior of Al Qaeda is utterly prohibited by their reading of the Qur'an...the reading they've learned in their mosques.

In my opinion this proposed mosque will be an emblem of American freedom, ESPECIALLY since it's near Ground Zero. It will help educate people about Islam, so that they will know that Osama bin Laden and his ilk are outcast heretics in Islam, and have no justification in ANY religion for their murderous behavior. There will also be a community center which will be open to everyone, not just Muslims, in a neighborhood sadly deprived of such things.

Please consider what I've said carefully, and then think about whether it changes your position. I know both 9/11 and Muslims, and I support the building of this mosque.
 
(Btw, I could be executed in Saudi Arabia for my religious practices, never mind my sexual ones. This reflects just the reality most American Muslims fled when they came here. Saudi Arabia is a brutally repressive regime, and it's an Islamic form of such a regime, but that doesn't reflect at all on American Muslims.)
 
I feel I should offer my perspective here.

I was working in One World Trade Center at the time of the attacks. I escaped death by my decision that morning to come in at 10 (as I had as a contractor) rather than at 8:30 (as I had since becoming an employee). I worked on a floor right in the center of the hole where the first plane went in.

300 of my coworkers died that day, including several people who were friendly to me and whom I personally liked. Because phones were down and people were marooned far from home (the trains and tunnels were shut down for security reasons), it took a long time to verify the miraculous fact: none of the people really close to me had died, none of my old friends...only my new ones.

But that wasn't what broke me, and sent me into a deepening depression I still struggle with.

The response of my fellow Americans made me ashamed. They attacked their Muslim neighbors, and their non-Muslim Arab neighbors, and their Sikh neighbors (even though no Sikh had anything to do with the attacks, the turbans were enough).

Living where I do, I know a number of Muslims. On 9/11, the owner of a Middle Eastern restaurant here in Hoboken called a bunch of men from his mosque and rushed down to Ground Zero to volunteer. When they were told the place was overflowing with volunteers (as it was), they raised money instead. That restaurant proudly displays one of the American flags flown at Ground Zero during the rescue period.

Another of my friends is an Albanian Muslim, raised right here in New Jersey. He looks, acts, sounds, and IS exactly like any other young adult from New Jersey. (The exceptions are that he didn't get drunk on his 21st birthday - or ever - and fasts during Ramadan. His favorite fast-breaking food? A peanut butter and jelly sandwich.)

Because he's white, he's often been the "surprise" Muslim in his classes, and heard people say some phenomenally stupid things about Muslims and Islam. "Wait a minute! I'm a Muslim, and I'm not like that," he often has to say, and their response is often "You're not a Muslim." He's not a brown-skinned turban-wearing psychopath, you see, so he can't be a Muslim.

Let's compare some other terrorist attacks, hmm? Tim McVeigh has already been brought up; he was a white guy from Michigan, like me. Funny, I didn't get any hate stares on the street after the OKC bombing, which at the time was the worst terrorist attack on American soil. He was a Christian, but no one says that Christian churches should not be allowed near the OKC memorial.

The terrorists who have been blowing up abortion clinics and shooting doctors are self-proclaimed Christians also, but no one throws rocks at men in reversed collars or people wearing crosses because of this, not even the family members of the people they've murdered, not even the horribly-scarred survivors of the fires they set.

But, you will say, those people aren't good Christians. They aren't good examples of Christianity. You know what? That's exactly what my Muslim friends say about Osama bin Laden and his gang of perverts. The behavior of Al Qaeda is utterly prohibited by their reading of the Qur'an...the reading they've learned in their mosques.

In my opinion this proposed mosque will be an emblem of American freedom, ESPECIALLY since it's near Ground Zero. It will help educate people about Islam, so that they will know that Osama bin Laden and his ilk are outcast heretics in Islam, and have no justification in ANY religion for their murderous behavior. There will also be a community center which will be open to everyone, not just Muslims, in a neighborhood sadly deprived of such things.

Please consider what I've said carefully, and then think about whether it changes your position. I know both 9/11 and Muslims, and I support the building of this mosque.

thanks for this post. Your strength of character is inspiring.
 
You can absolve the religions themselves all you please, but violence is enshrined in the holy books of the Abrahamic faiths. The plethora of religious adherents who choose not to live violently does not change this fundamental fact.

That lie is tiresome.

For Jews, and for Christians more so, well, they'll tell you that violence is condemned.

The penultimate and core teaching of the Bible is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart", and its corollary, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Where's the violence?

I can tell you where it is: Saul of Tarsus, called Paul, said, "When I was a child, I thought as a child... but when I became a man, I put away childish things." The violence of the Old Testament is something that was "put away": it is not enshrined, it is brought to an end.
 
Kuli, a surprising number of Christians don't get that point about Christianity. They don't understand that Christ's "new covenant" was supposed to supersede the old covenant.

That's why we still have self-professed Christians quoting Leviticus on homosexuality, for example - even though none of them would quote it on shellfish or the price of a male slave.

Selective reading is very common. In fact I suspect it characterizes our species generally.

There are millions and millions of Muslims who read the Qur'an in a peaceful way. From listening to them, I understand that the circumstances in which the book allows violence are quite narrowly defined. Only an apostate like Osama bin Laden could read it as justifying the killing of innocent people.
 
thanks for this post. Your strength of character is inspiring.

You're welcome. I don't know that it's strength of character as such. I already knew some of these people, you see, and knew their character. (Not my Albanian friend; he was a child in 2001.) That restaurant had been a favorite eatery of mine and my friends' for a decade or more before 9/11.

And by September 15 I had already heard the story of the hate stares received by a friend of a friend as he escaped the site of the World Trade Center, scorched and covered with ash - hate stares he received because he's Arab-American. He wasn't dressed "funny" or anything; the reaction was purely based on his features and skin color, and despite the fact that he was as much a victim as anyone else that day.

I wore a button that said "Hate-Free Zone" for quite a while after that.
 
That lie is tiresome.

For Jews, and for Christians more so, well, they'll tell you that violence is condemned.

The penultimate and core teaching of the Bible is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart", and its corollary, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Where's the violence?

I can tell you where it is: Saul of Tarsus, called Paul, said, "When I was a child, I thought as a child... but when I became a man, I put away childish things." The violence of the Old Testament is something that was "put away": it is not enshrined, it is brought to an end.

What kind of character would god have to have to expect people to live according to the old testament? It is alleged that he did at one point.

It is all Benny Hinn.
 
It is not a lie, just because you wish it so. The fact of the matter is that the great book both condemns and glorifies violence, which is dangerous in and of itself given that someone with an improper sense of humanity can easily use this to justify their behavior.

You may think that portion of the Bible to be the most important, and it most likely is, but the potential justification for destruction is there.

No, it is a lie because that's what the Bible says. You don't even have to go to the New Testament to find that violence is one of the old things passing away; it's all over the prophets. The Bible is not a laundry list, where everything is of equal importance -- and that's not an opinion, because it says so: "When the new comes, the old is done away", "No man puts new wine in old wineskins".

Since the prophets explain it, and the New Testament makes it close to absolute (sufficient that early Christians refused to serve in the legions or even as caravan guards), to say that the Bible glorifies violence is a plain lie. It's like saying that in a detective story, the solution offered in chapter three is just as valid as the one which actually solved the crime.

Yes, people can take portions out of context to justify their own lusts, for violence or otherwise, but the plain truth there is that they can't read. They're like chess players who know how to move the pieces, but have not even the most basic grasp of how to use pieces to support each other: they know the words, and can put together sentences, but reading is far more than that; it involves distilling meaning from entire chapters, books, and the whole. That's true not just of the Bible but of all pieces of literature.
 
No one is building ,or has any plans to build a mosque at ''Ground Zero''.If they did, or were,I could see why people might be pissed.Tolerant or not,I think that would be offensive.

What they(muslims) are planning, is converting an existing building, a building they own, and that is several blocks away,into a mosque..

I don't see the problem, and I think this has been blown all out of proportion..
 
No on is building ,or has any plans to build a mosque at ''Ground Zero''.If they did, or were,I could see why people might be pissed.Tolerant or not, I think that would be offensive.

What they(muslims) are planning is converting an existing building, a building they own, and that is several blocks away,into a mosque..

I don't see the problem, and I think this has beem blown all out of proportion..

:=D:

Quoted for truth (and attention to detail).
 
No one is building ,or has any plans to build a mosque at ''Ground Zero''.If they did, or were,I could see why people might be pissed.Tolerant or not,I think that would be offensive.

What they(muslims) are planning, is converting an existing building, a building they own, and that is several blocks away,into a mosque..

I don't see the problem, and I think this has been blown all out of proportion..

fifty percent of american politics is pure bullshit to sustain the bottom feeders.
 
Its easy to blame someones religion when you dont share it, however, the people of this church are being insensitive.

Yes there is freedom of religion, but there is also freedom of speech, and there are still things you cannot say.

Therefore, there should be some consideration on the part of this church to not build it near this site.

Imagine if the crypts or bloods were religion, all of a sudden gangsters across America would be clamoring religious intolerance if we said "we dont want your church in our neighborhood".

False analogy (and offensive too). Gangs like the Bloods and the Crips engage in primarily violent and illegal activity, with a religion of their own being of secondary importance. Whereas Islam is a religion that is no more or less violent than the other two major Abrahamic religions.

By the way, the Latin Kings do have their own religious/philosophical belief system. It's called Kingism. And we have freedom of association, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion in this country. If the ALKQN wanted to use a building in my town, I'd be uncomfortable with it (of course), but I'd in no way try to impede them. It's called freedom. With true freedom some people's feelings are hurt, some people are offended, some people will act insensitively toward others, some people will get hurt, and yes, some people will die. That is the price we pay for freedom. Perhaps a less free country like Cuba would be more to your taste? Singapore's life expectancy at birth is rather good too.

Why worry about the past? (re: all of the violence, the child molestation is a separate matter that I do find abhorrent)

I don't like Catholicism or any branch of Christianity, but I don't pretend that they're doing the world the same level of harm today that Islam is, with its awful fundamentalist sect that seems to be trying to turn the world into a giant, tyrannical theocracy.

#-o The Real IRA. Maoists in India. Shining Path. Basques in Spain. Four examples that come to mind immediately. There are of course others. All four of those groups are terrorist, two of them are primarily Catholic and two are primarily atheist. Don't forget that only 65 years ago Jewish terrorists fought in Britain's Palestine to create a state of Israel. Muslims are not doing any more harm than Christians, Jews, etcetera. Simply because their political goals include a religious goal doesn't make Islam itself more dangerous. They have political goals. As to terrorists of many religious stripes.

And their goal isn't to turn the entire world into a single theocracy. Just a caliphate in the Arab world. Which is, by the way, only a small part of the world at large. Does that mean we should let them accomplish that goal? Of course not. Just like the Basque and Northern Irish separatists haven't been successful. But let's not punish or single out Muslims in the US because a tiny minority of Muslims from the Middle East have it in their heads to remake the Arab empire as Mohammed ruled it.
 
I must add that I find it curious that any gay man would not worry about Islamic ideology and what it can do to a society.


You mean unlike the loving and acceptance a gay man gets from Christianity, right?:rotflmao:
 
This is a ridiculous story fabricated by the right wing to stir up emotions.

The mosque is blocks away from "ground zero". If you're ever been to Manhattan you would soon learn that blocks away can be an entirely different world. You can't even see where the World Trade Center was from the building site.

And what ever happened to "Freedom of Religion"? Are only Baptist churches allowed to be built?

The depths these right wing extremists are going to just to stir up emotions and battle cries.
 
All of this bickering is rather pointless, they have violated no laws and have the legal right to do what they please with their own property.

The day we let the popular majority decide where a religious group can and cannot worship on their own legal property is the day this is no longer the United States of America.
 
They should be allowed to build their mosque there. We should not make an enemy of those that practice Islam as a whole, because it isn't right to categorize an entire group of people. I am quite sure you would have no difficulty finding good Muslims out in the world, and it is a crime that we hold September 11th against an entire group of people that practice a certain faith.

That would be like pretending we are all Muslims and categorizing the entire Christian population based on the activities of those in the Westboro Baptist Church.

The extremists attacked us, not those that wish to practice Islam peacefully.

They should be allowed to have the mosque built.

This is one more opportunity for Christians and Muslims to come together and learn more about each other.
 
All of this bickering is rather pointless, they have violated no laws and have the legal right to do what they please with their own property.

The day we let the popular majority decide where a religious group can and cannot worship on their own legal property is the day this is no longer the United States of America.

I've never understood why people that think that it's okay to discriminate against minority religions don't ever wonder if they'll be discriminated against in the same exact way by other people.
 
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