Cuba, what about trade?

[peeonme]

First I will say I have never been thrilled with globalization, especially being in bed with China.
The main reason is that the people are not free, it is a one party system and forget free speech, religion, freedom of the press etc.
Yet we forgot it would seem how many died under the oppressive communist government.

Today I watched the ceremony at our embassy in Cuba, I did get the chills as I saw the 3 Marines who took our flag down back in '61 hand the new flag over to the 3 Marines who
raised it as our national anthem played.

But there was talk of the trade embargo with Cuba, how some think that we should keep it in place until Cuba is "more democratic".

I find a bit of a double standard in this, what's the deal? Is there not as much money to be made of off the workers in Cuba by big business?

 

[Benvolio]

We probably have the leverage to help the people of Cuba. With China, not so much. If you haven't noticed, it is a lot bigger and richer.

 

[TX-Beau]

Let's "help" the people of Cuba by letting them get up on their own. Drop the trade barriers, and let them take it from there.

 

[kallipolis]

Improving relations with Cuba is a process, that needs time, trust, and effort to reconcile the United States, with an neighbour enthusiastic to repair a damaged relationship with the United States.

One step, at a time....Cuba is a popular tourist destination for Europeans whose experiences with Cubans are positive, understanding that Cubans have always been anxious to restore relationships with the United States, and the rest of the Western world.

I am optimistic...

 

[kallipolis]

It was Richard Nixon who opened the door to trade with China....leading to China's development into an industrial power....not to be ignored, but cultivated as a trading partner, that we may all benefit. Big business has understood that China's market is some 1.5 billion people....opportunities, abound...and, we do not need a return to former emnities that created so much misery, and war...here, I am speaking of the Vietnam War....when the United States learnt that its foreign policy goals are better pursued with diplomacy, and compromise.

 

[peeonme]

We probably have the leverage to help the people of Cuba. With China, not so much. If you haven't noticed, it is a lot bigger and richer.

It (China) became rich at our expense, their main commodity was cheap labor. How have we helped the people of China, I speak in regards to human rights, not money. Do they now have the right to peaceably assemble? Can they gather in Tiananmen Square and not be in fear?

 

[kallipolis]

It (China) became rich at our expense, their main commodity was cheap labor. How have we helped the people of China, I speak in regards to human rights, not money. Do they now have the right to peaceably assemble? Can they gather in Tiananmen Square and not be in fear?

This is not to going to occur overnight as long as the Communist Party exercises ultimate control.....nevertheless, there is much greater freedom today, than there was under Chairman Mao and the various Tiananmen Square massacres....not just one, but many....may have persuaded the leadership that tight controls invite a repeat of Tiananmen Square...also, increasing wealth spreading throughout China has ignited an old debate on China fragmenting into several countries representing the varied ethnic mix that is China.

 

[peeonme]

My point is that we, the USA can pinch our nose and over look, ignore and turn a blind eye to China and it's lack of democracy... then we can hardly use this to as a reason to maintain a trade embargo with Cuba.

Free trade is free trade, if we have diplomatic relations with a nation, then let the good times roll.

 

[thewiz]

Actually what Cuba doesn't have is oil. We had no problem with Saddam Hussein (well until we overthrew his legally empowered government using tainted intelligence), Muammar Gaddafi, Hugo Chávez or similar dictators; the difference was that they had oil and we could easily overlook the thousands they killed, etc. We re-established relations with Russia (then the Soviet Union), China, and even Vietnam where 50,000 Americans died yet we are somehow afraid of Cuba? Yes, they have abused human rights but I do find it ironic that we are holding 160 people without charges and without a trial in a prison on the tip of Cuba; we had more but we finally began setting those free who we could find nothing about.

Did Abu Ghraib or water torture we did elsewhere set us on such a pedestal that only allows us to look down at others in the world? How about our treatment of blacks in this country or LGBT (the KKK just issued encouragement to kill or injure gays)? I'd say we might want to arrange our own closet before we set out to tell others how to clean theirs.

What America has exported and been successful at is a quest for freedom. When we went to Thailand this past spring, our travel guide talked over and over about the "fleedom we have." They are so proud that, while a monarchy, they enjoy a free country. They were never invaded by the European powers because they lacked oil and other commodities. The Japanese came through Thailand to take Singapore but did not occupy. The Thai people were so happy to tell us, Americans, how they, too were free that they beamed ear to ear.

My hubby and I will be going to Cuba in February; I look forward to seeing the island before American businesses flock in and turn it into Disneyland South.

 

[Benvolio]

Kkm

Improving relations with Cuba is a process, that needs time, trust, and effort to reconcile the United States, with an neighbour enthusiastic to repair a damaged relationship with the United States.

One step, at a time....Cuba is a popular tourist destination for Europeans whose experiences with Cubans are positive, understanding that Cubans have always been anxious to restore relationships with the United States, and the rest of the Western world.

I am optimistic...

That is probably true or most of the Cuban prople, but the dictator is only intrrested in the money, while remaining as hostile as always. He has now claimed that the US owes him money for the embargo. lOL Not an effort at reconcilation.

We have nothing to gain from this and it will help the regime to stay in power for another generation. But, hey, he and Obama have so much in common, their marxism and dislike for Americans.

 

[rareboy]

^ Oh Bullshit.

The same kneejerk jingoistic response.

Well, here's the deal. Canada doesn't have an embargo with Cuba. We have been able to have a relationship with them for decades. We complain about their totalitarianism and human rights...they point out all the failings of our own democratic country...much of the criticism well deserved.

Over the last 60 years...the US has consistently and spectacularly failed time and time and time and time and time again in its approach to regime change. In fact, I struggle to think of another democracy that has got it so wrong, so consistently and so spectacularly as the US in the last 1000 years..or longer. Nixon's detente with China and Reagan's rapprochement with the USSR are the only actions that have held real promise for the citizens of those regimes. And in neither case did the US reach this point by starving out the other nations with sanctions.

so Benvolio...hang onto the fantasy of the US dictating the world on your terms....it brands you as one of the deluded, doctrinaire right wingers with no grasp of realpolitik......

Thank god Obama and some saner heads are trying to look for a new paradigm that doesn't require violent regime overthrow

 

[Benvolio]

What you fail to realize is that the embargo was not primarily intended to bring down the regime. The primary purpose was to prevent soviet-allied communism from spreading in the Western Hemisphere. The danger was that with business from the US combined with subsidies from the USSR, communism would appear to other countries, particularly the dictatorships, to be a attractive deal. By playing the US and USSR against each other they would be able to extort benefits, or succumb to communist dictatorships.
Worse, it was feared that the USSR and Cuba would send military forces to subvert other regimes in the area. This, of course, did happen. Forces were sent by Cuba to overturn the elected government of Granada. Forces were sent to Nicaragua, Bolivia (remember Che died there) and others. Cuba sent an army to Angola for over a decade. It had a school on the Isle of Pines for subversives.
And, you are wrong. The strategy worked. No other country in the hemisphere went communist until out worst president, Carter, allowed it to happen in Nicaragua. And, the embargo has helped other democracies in the hemisphere as tourists and trade have gone to the Bahamas, Jamaica, Caymans which otherwise would have gone to Cuba.
All the while, Canada by its support, helped Castro to stay in power as one of the most oppressive regimes ever in the Western Hemisphere. Cuba's recent approach to the US was made out of desperation, suggesting that the people of Cuba might finally be able to achieve their freedom. Castro will reap enormous financial profits at the expense of other, friendly, countries. Obama's misguided support for the regime is a grievous mistake.

 

[kallipolis]

When the hyper conservative Republican US President, Richard Nixon visited, and opened up relations with Red China, the American right wing hardline wackos went crazy, but eventually fell in line,,,,just as they will do with Cuba.

 

[thewiz]

You might want to go take a puff of whatever it is you are on ^^.

I am sure Canada thanks you for thinking they are so powerful but the UK, Europe and the rest of the world have had relations with Cuba for the past 50 years. One of our good friends in the UK encouraged us to go on vacation in Cuba a few years ago but my security clearance would not look so kindly at that trip and we could not go. It is the simplistic view that Republicans have used and again demonstrates you either have little interest in history or no ability to comprehend it.

The US relationship with Cuba goes back to the Spanish American War when business interests pushed America into a conflict with Spain in an effort to preserve and expand their interests in the Philippines and Cuba. Following the "war", Cuba became a protectorate before gaining its independence.

Fulgencio Batista, who had served as the elected President of Cuba from 1940 to 1944, became President for the second time in March 1952, after seizing power in a military coup (backed by US interests -- so much for your democracy) and cancelling the 1952 elections. Although Batista had been a relative progressive during his first term, in the 1950s he proved far more dictatorial and indifferent to popular concerns. While Cuba remained plagued by high unemployment and limited water infrastructure, Batista antagonized the population by forming lucrative links to organized crime and allowing American companies to dominate the Cuban economy.

During his first term as President, Batista had been supported by the Communist Party of Cuba, but during his second term he became strongly "anti-communist," gaining him political and military support from the United States. Batista developed a powerful security infrastructure to silence political opponents. In the months following the March 1952 coup, Fidel Castro, then a young lawyer and activist, petitioned for the overthrow of Batista, whom he accused of corruption and tyranny. However, Castro's constitutional arguments were rejected by the Cuban courts. After deciding that the Cuban regime could not be replaced through legal means, Castro resolved to launch an armed revolution. To this end, he and his brother Raúl founded a paramilitary organization known as "The Movement", stockpiling weapons and recruiting around 1,200 followers from Havana's disgruntled working class by the end of 1952.

The US and business interests were appalled after industries were "Nationalized" by the Castro's when they overthrew the military dictatorship (kind of replaced one with the other).

The trade embargo was to specifically punish and bring down the regime; it's the same bullshit the Republicans and you want to spout about Iran now -- let's just put a little more of an embargo on them and we'll cause the regime to collapse. Well guess what; 50 years and the regime has now changed hands (brother to brother) and the only ones that have truly been hurt in all of it are the Cuban people. The Soviet Union did not collapse because of a trade embargo; it was showing them that a world actually existed outside their borders that was far from what was portrayed. Why do you think North Korea fights so hard to limit what that country's population can see or hear? Why do you think "Radio Free Europe" so succeeded?

I'm glad President Obama had the balls to stand up to the special interest (and Republican) pandering which was designed to keep the Cuban vote in Florida going Republican. Fortunately the next generation of Cuban youth have realized the failure of the embargo and the insanity of keeping the island isolated for 50 more years. The embargo and thought process led to the Vietnam war failures and tens of thousands of American lives were lost...for what?

I'm sure President Carter should have invaded Nicaragua like Bush did Iraq; look what a success and model that has been. Or better yet, let's look at our successes in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia...

As for no other country going communist, I guess Venezuela isn't exactly communist -- it is worse with a dictator who happily thumbed his nose at America and was far more oppressive and influential in the hemisphere. Then again, he did have oil and we needed it. I do find it amazing that you aren't complaining about all the Cuban immigrants (all would be illegal by your standards) who got to America in regular boat lifts. They, too, speak Spanish but it must be more favorable to the Republicans.

 

[Benvolio]

When the hyper conservative Republican US President, Richard Nixon visited, and opened up relations with Red China, the American right wing hardline wackos went crazy, but eventually fell in line,,,,just as they will do with Cuba.

They did not go crazy. And whether or not people will fall in line is hardly proof that it is the right thing to do. Nixon hoped that China would become an ally against USSR or at least less of an ally to them, but it failed. It is hard to see what good came from relations with China. The world was actually better when China was a failed communist economy.

 

[thewiz]

They did not go crazy. And whether or not people will fall in line is hardly proof that it is the right thing to do. Nixon hoped that China would become an ally against USSR or at least less of an ally to them, but it failed. It is hard to see what good came from relations with China. The world was actually better when China was a failed communist economy.

Yeah...just ignore those 1.37 billion or so people. I'm sure they don't buy anything; I'm sure they have no impact on places like North Korea or the Asian-Pacific countries; and the fact that they enjoy a communist-capitalist society was pure accident.

As for history...again do you just choose to ignore it or do you rely on a 1960's set of encyclopedias bought with S & H Greenstamps? Nixon was about to run for election (and then Watergate happened). Kissinger arranged the historic trip to China and thaw in relations all in secret -- something rather astounding today. I remember quite well that this was the first glimpse into China by US television and most Americans; it would be like Obama going to North Korea (except that little stooge has no standing in anything). The surprising thing was the number of bicycles that everyone used to get everywhere. Thank goodness for America because now they have cars choking their highways and smog so thick you can't see across the tarmac when you land in Beijing!

It led to detente with the Soviet Union and suspicions both from the left and the right. Nixon went on to win a landslide election only to be defeated by his Republican Paranoia that seems to be characteristic of many (or so it seems).

 

[peeonme]

They did not go crazy. And whether or not people will fall in line is hardly proof that it is the right thing to do. Nixon hoped that China would become an ally against USSR or at least less of an ally to them, but it failed. It is hard to see what good came from relations with China. The world was actually better when China was a failed communist economy.

I reiterate that I am no big fan of so called free trade, however, if I might speak metaphorically, I would rather run into a bear in the woods that had just eaten, rather than one who that was hungry.
A nation that is diametrically opposed to us would be more dangerous if it were desperate, they might become expansionist.

I felt that the rug was pulled from beneath the feet of the middle class in the USA with the trade deals that we entered into, but at the same time we had to find a away to get China to play nice.
Now it's Cuba's turn.

 

[Benvolio]

I reiterate that I am no big fan of so called free trade, however, if I might speak metaphorically, I would rather run into a bear in the woods that had just eaten, rather than one who that was hungry.
A nation that is diametrically opposed to us would be more dangerous if it were desperate, they might become expansionist.

I felt that the rug was pulled from beneath the feet of the middle class in the USA with the trade deals that we entered into, but at the same time we had to find a away to get China to play nice.
Now it's Cuba's turn.

If you haven't noticed, China is spending part of its huge cash reserves to build and enormous military as is Russia, its ally. Why? I don't think they intend to play nice. Meanwhile we are sharply reducing out military and borrowing out way to currency collapse.

 

[peeonme]

If you haven't noticed, China is spending part of its huge cash reserves to build and enormous military as is Russia, its ally. Why? I don't think they intend to play nice. Meanwhile we are sharply reducing out military and borrowing out way to currency collapse.

I have been bitching about China since the ink dried on the trade agreement. If I had it my way, it would not have been a "bend over and grab your ankles" agreement. Why fuck over your own workers? One reason, big business wanted cheap labor, big business gets what it pays for, it bought those who we elected... from either party.

 

[Kabluey]

I have been bitching about China since the ink dried on the trade agreement. If I had it my way, it would not have been a "bend over and grab your ankles" agreement. Why fuck over your own workers? One reason, big business wanted cheap labor, big business gets what it pays for, it bought those who we elected... from either party.

True. A tiny, empoverished island like Cuba is relatively powerless. In terms of international relations, this was a good move by the USA. The embargo was looking increasingly irrational. Like an elderly man's grudge against his lifelong neighbour.
The context has changed.