Cuba, what about trade?

[Benvolio]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military–industrial_complex
There are corporations that make huge dollars from war, be it a legitimate one or a manufactured war such as Iraq.

You must really hate Americans to believe that.

 

[peeonme]

You must really hate Americans to believe that.

To believe what Ike warned us of?
That's what cons do, if you say anything, then you hate America, don't play that card.

 

[bankside]

You must really hate Americans to believe that.

Did Republican US President Dwight Eisenhower hate Americans?

Did that Republican president hate Americans by warning them against private companies tempted by the profits of war?

 

[thewiz]

Well, that is why I am so immensely relieved about Hassan Rouhani's successes in winning the confidence of our own government. I honestly and earnestly think that, if he can succeed in stabilizing Iran's relationships with external parties, he will be worthy of a Nobel. I honestly think that policies geared toward estrangement are simply nutty.

What are opinions on Mariela? She's a friend to Cuba's LGBT community, which is a positive, but are there fair criticisms of her?

The United States, contrary to Benvolian Philosphy, has created many of the enemies we have now begun making amends with:

-- In Cuba we supported a dictator who overthrew an elected government (which we had overseen). When that dictator then faced a challenge, we continued to support him to the point of the Bay of Pigs and a 50 year embargo that did nothing except hurt the Cuban people.
-- In Iran, we overthrew the government and installed the Shah who was then overthrown by a popular (re: the people) uprising.
-- In the Middle East we encouraged free elections for Palestinians and then have sought to overthrow the elected parties because they happened to be viewed as terrorists by us (which could be like calling the kettle black at times). Same in Egypt.

The United States has not operated in a vacuum since WWI and likely never will. We have a knack for sticking our nose into areas it does not belong and we certainly have had little success at nation building.

As for Mariela, the Washington, DC Gay Men's Chorus was just invited to tour the island and met with her. She has conducted quite a bit of outreach and they were treated extremely well. My hubby and I will be taking a gay cruise and a meeting with Cuban government officials will likely occur when we are in Havana. I realize there are human rights violations and the Cuban record is still spotty. But if you were looking in on America from the outside (and impartially) and saw black people (unarmed) gun downed almost daily and you saw news of 16,000 people gun down yearly in the US; would you wonder about our own human rights?

 

[Brian Smith]

Oh, they effectively legalized murder in Florida. All you have to do is get a witness to say that someone approached you threateningly, and you won't even be charged with a crime, as long as you look white and your victim is black, anyhow. That would be a case for sanctions, in my book.

 

[Benvolio]

Did Republican US President Dwight Eisenhower hate Americans?

Did that Republican president hate Americans by warning them against private companies tempted by the profits of war?

One sentence by him has made him a hero to Americas enemies. But he was speaking generally. Kosovo, Granada and Vietnam had not happened. Eisenhower participated in our defences of SoKorea, Taiwan. The conclusions you want to draw from his sentencesare wrong.

 

[rareboy]

Cuba, and Cuban citizens, have not suffered from having an open trading relationship with Canada all these decades. If anything, having a few links with a real country has provided a lifeline for the sane people there to make advances that have allowed the country to open up as much as it has.

I don't think you can starve a country into action. Look at North Korea for fuck's sake. Even the Chinese think they're weird, and they're still going.

Speaking of China, it is a complete fantasy to think you could ever isolate a country like that anyway. It's huge. It's a member of the security council!

Just one country, bigger than Europe and North America put together, and we're supposed to "Cut them off??!!??" What does that even mean to "cut them off..." Pfff.

If Europe and North America didn't even exist it would make it that much easier for the Chinese government to pretend things there are normal. But the more we deal with them, the less they can keep up that illusion. People know. If we tried to ignore China, China could ignore us, to the detriment of its people.

This.

I think we are proud that our ties with Cuba have allowed them to survive and within a very restricted economy, to also prosper.

By Benvolio's logic, rapprochement with China by lettting them build all our shit cheap and to bankroll the US wars of adventure has helped keep the people enslaved.....so it would be wise not to lecture Canada about Cuba... but even then Benvolio is still consistently and ridiculously wrong as noted.

Starving North Korea has only made the regime more isolated and brutal.

Working with China has opened their entire system to plodding but marked change.

But since Benvolio and the knuckle dragging, chest thumping militarists don't understand diplomacy....all of this is wasted on them.

And by the way Benvolio.....your ignorance on the essence of foreign aid and military protection of states is beyond staggering. Do you think that the military industrial complex doesn't make billions off the shit that the American taxpayer dumps on all these countries?
America learned in WWII that there are huge profits to be made by being perpetually at war and the entire economy of the country has been sewed to this for the last 50 years...increasingly so as more domestic product manufacturing shifts to slave labour wage countries.

There is no more dangerous person in the US today than the naive isolationists who still believe that the US has the right and the ability to bully the rest of the world into the type of corporatist oligarchy the top 400 families in the US, and the stooges they own in government seem to be determined to create.

 

[Benvolio]

Liberals often scold the US for allegedly "supporting" dictators, but want to support Castro. Of course he is a brutal totalitarian dictator, but he is a communist, and for liberals that makes it just fine.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm waiting for Cubans with mint-condition classic American cars to start putting them up for auction to U.S. collectors. Some of those old beauties would bring six figures (US) easy.

 

[peeonme]

Liberals often scold the US for allegedly "supporting" dictators, but want to support Castro. Of course he is a brutal totalitarian dictator, but he is a communist, and for liberals that makes it just fine.

It is all to obvious that no one seems to care who is a commie and who isn't, all that matters is if big business can make money.
This goes for either party, libs and cons.
It's kind of sad for some that throwing around the word "liberal" or even "communist" has lost it's impact.

So, back to the topic... why play with Nam, China and others and squawk about Cuba?

 

[kallipolis]

So, back to the topic... why play with Nam, China and others and squawk about Cuba?

Noteworthy....................

 

[Benvolio]

It is all to obvious that no one seems to care who is a commie and who isn't, all that matters is if big business can make money.
This goes for either party, libs and cons.
It's kind of sad for some that throwing around the word "liberal" or even "communist" has lost it's impact.

So, back to the topic... why play with Nam, China and others and squawk about Cuba?

Republicans still care who is a commie. You forget that communism is every bit as evil and brutal as fascism and succeeded in killing even more.
As for China and Vietnam, we cannot do everything, but we can do something. Castro hates the US and has a long history of subverting other governments in Latin America and attempting to do so. Remember, he and the Venezuelan communists are buddy buddy. Now with huge sums of US money in his pocket, he can help the communist insurgents in Bolivia, Peru, etc.

 

[peeonme]

Republicans still care who is a commie. You forget that communism is every bit as evil and brutal as fascism and succeeded in killing even more. As for China and Vietnam, we cannot do everything, but we can do something. Castro hates the US and has a long history of subverting other governments in Latin America and attempting to do so. Remember, he and the Venezuelan communists are buddy buddy. Now with huge sums of US money in his pocket, he can help the communist insurgents in Bolivia, Peru, etc.

I fully realize how evil it is, from what I have read over 30,000000 people have been killed in China since the Communists took over,
70,000000 in The former Soviet Union.

That is why I screamed like I was fucking a porcupine when we climbed in bed with Red China, we abandoned all principles to satisfy the wants and desires of large corporations so they could get at cheap human flesh and exploit their to there greedy desires.

Then, they (the powers that be from either supposed party) do a war dance about lifting the trade embargo with a relatively benign small nation.

This is like going to a wrestling match in the old days, we have the "babe" and the "heel" and one party or the other does the "sell" while we get played.

 

[Benvolio]

I fully realize how evil it is, from what I have read over 30,000000 people have been killed in China since the Communists took over,
70,000000 in The former Soviet Union.

That is why I screamed like I was fucking a porcupine when we climbed in bed with Red China, we abandoned all principles to satisfy the wants and desires of large corporations so they could get at cheap human flesh and exploit their to there greedy desires.

Then, they (the powers that be from either supposed party) do a war dance about lifting the trade embargo with a relatively benign small nation.

This is like going to a wrestling match in the old days, we have the "babe" and the "heel" and one party or the other does the "sell" while we get played.

If you are referring to Nixon's approach to Red China, it was not done for the corporations, but an attempt to wedge between USSR an China, to deter a possible war by USSR. There was lots of cheap labor in the world without the difficulty of dealing with Communist China.

 

[peeonme]

If you are referring to Nixon's approach to Red China, it was not done for the corporations, but an attempt to wedge between USSR an China, to deter a possible war by USSR. There was lots of cheap labor in the world without the difficulty of dealing with Communist China.

Everything is done for money, if you want to buy the "sell" go for it, I quit believing Washington quite a while back.
China was a place where big business could go and do as they pleased, as long as China (the government) got their cut, they pimped out their workers to large corporations and allowed them to build dangerous unregulated facilities on their shores.

Now, what about Cuba?

 

[rareboy]

Republicans still care who is a commie. You forget that communism is every bit as evil and brutal as fascism and succeeded in killing even more.
As for China and Vietnam, we cannot do everything, but we can do something. Castro hates the US and has a long history of subverting other governments in Latin America and attempting to do so. Remember, he and the Venezuelan communists are buddy buddy. Now with huge sums of US money in his pocket, he can help the communist insurgents in Bolivia, Peru, etc.

You ignorance of politics in Cuba and the role that Castro actually plays would be hilarious if it also wasn't so dangerous. The way you describe him...you'd think that millions of Cubans are being 'disappeared', incarcerated or slaughtered on a weekly basis. Their incarceration rate is behind Barbados and well behind the US....

And again...pointing the finger at Cuba when the US has a sordid and consistent history over the last 60 years of subverting governments all around the world...many times to only place dictators in power who will serve its corporate or strategic interests....wow.

You belong to that class of right wingers who suffer from pathological cognitive dissonance....who believe that other country's and peoples' hatred arises from nothing....who can never understand that the actions of the US empire have understandably left millions and millions around the world wounded, widowed, economically devastated, displaced and angry.

Thank God that Obama has finally done what should have been done about 30 years ago and is reaching out to help effect change in Cuba without the marines and Halliburton contract warriors killing everyone first.

Thank God that he is strong enough to accept that while the US can raise issues of political prisoners and human rights abuses in Cuba...that the Cubans are free to point out the rancid hypocrisy given the presence of a US black ops torture camp on their soil.

This is a chance to step forward...but typically, all the Benvolios in the US want to do is circle the wagons and maintain the status quo to no fruitful end.

 

[Benvolio]

Oijj

You ignorance of politics in Cuba and the role that Castro actually plays would be hilarious if it also wasn't so dangerous. The way you describe him...you'd think that millions of Cubans are being 'disappeared', incarcerated or slaughtered on a weekly basis. Their incarceration rate is behind Barbados and well behind the US....

And again...pointing the finger at Cuba when the US has a sordid and consistent history over the last 60 years of subverting governments all around the world...many times to only place dictators in power who will serve its corporate or strategic interests....wow.

You belong to that class of right wingers who suffer from pathological cognitive dissonance....who believe that other country's and peoples' hatred arises from nothing....who can never understand that the actions of the US empire have understandably left millions and millions around the world wounded, widowed, economically devastated, displaced and angry.

Thank God that Obama has finally done what should have been done about 30 years ago and is reaching out to help effect change in Cuba without the marines and Halliburton contract warriors killing everyone first.

Thank God that he is strong enough to accept that while the US can raise issues of political prisoners and human rights abuses in Cuba...that the Cubans are free to point out the rancid hypocrisy given the presence of a US black ops torture camp on their soil.

This is a chance to step forward...but typically, all the Benvolios in the US want to do is circle the wagons and maintain the status quo to no fruitful end.

So the US shoild not help dectators, but we should help Castro because he is communist. I get it.

 

[thewiz]

Liberals often scold the US for allegedly "supporting" dictators, but want to support Castro. Of course he is a brutal totalitarian dictator, but he is a communist, and for liberals that makes it just fine.

No, the difference between Castro and the others is that he has no oil. If they suddenly discovered a huge treasure of oil under Cuba, you'd see Cheney, Haliburton and their buddies all flying to Havana to be "welcomed with open arms." As it is, Cuba has a rather peaceful people and has a high literacy rate, highly developed medical system, but does have to import oil so US Republicons have not yet figured what we can hook them on.

I actually haven't heard too many liberals scolding "supporting dictators" except for the hypocrisy of Republicons who only choose dictators that can benefit them monetarily... aka Saddam, Muammar Gaddafi, the Saudi's, Venezuela, etc. I realize if we only give it 50 more years, the embargo that only the US enforces will possibly bear fruit. Then again, it might be fruit flies.

As a comparison, the Republicons that now want to scrap the Iran deal would be facing the same situation with that country. It is not the US vs. Iran; it was the Security Council +1 that negotiated the agreement for and on behalf of the entire United Nations vs. Iran. Yes, America and the Republicons can lead the charge to scrap it; do you really think the delegations of Chinese, Russians, and European trade associations that are already in Iran staking out claims will just blindly follow? Do you really think our embargo that would be unenforced and be with no UN or world backing have a chance to change Iran's mind? After all, Iran was another mess we created going back to the Shah; it has worked so well in our favor.

 

[rareboy]

Oijj

So the US shoild not help dectators, but we should help Castro because he is communist. I get it.

No. What the US should be doing is assisting with the transition of Cubans into the 21st century of modern socialist democracy. It is possible. This is a first step in the right direction.

....and you don't just get to pick and choose your dictators....you can't engage with the Chinese communists and then decide that because Castro is a communist that he has to be thrown out of power. But if the US can support bloody military dictators and reactionary right wing thugs...it really can't complain when it has to deal with Raul Castro...and, I would note Castro's daughter...the person most likely to help Cuba make a positive transition after Fidel and Raul are gone.

 

[Benvolio]

,

No. What the US should be doing is assisting with the transition of Cubans into the 21st century of modern socialist democracy. It is possible. This is a first step in the right direction.

....and you don't just get to pick and choose your dictators....you can't engage with the Chinese communists and then decide that because Castro is a communist that he has to be thrown out of power. But if the US can support bloody military dictators and reactionary right wing thugs...it really can't complain when it has to deal with Raul Castro...and, I would note Castro's daughter...the person most likely to help Cuba make a positive transition after Fidel and Raul are gone.

Nonsense. Putting big money into the hands of the Castro ensures that they will stay in power for another generation. And, no, we don't have to deal with Raul The Cinese are not exactly communists any more as their economy has elements of free enterprise. Those inconsistencies which you think you see are irrelevant. We cannot change the whole world, but we can do some good. Keeping supporting the brutal totalitarian dictatorship of the Castros is not good.
If you see a way to bring down the Chinese government, please tell us.