Dear White Gays: Stop Stealing Black Female Culture

[bankside]

Well Foucault work still stands - women, PoC, and LGBT people still face discrimination on a daily basis.

The matriarchy will never happen, despite what fedora wearing mens rights guys will tell you feminists don't want to threaten you with violence, tell your where your place in life should be, pay you less and all that other shit that is done to women. It is lessening sure, women have it the best they ever have - but do they really have full equality yet? Let alone the matriarchy!

Yes, there are so-called mens' rights activists whose objections really amount to nothing more than "We don't get to pinch women on the bum at the office any more and therefore life is terrible." But if we're serious about equality, we're easily 20 years overdue for an in-depth societal conversation on how sexism reduces the quality of life for men as well as women, because it does reduce the quality of life for men as well. (and indeed the lifespan, despite what you may have read in the glib nonsense about hormones above.)

 

[bankside]

Imagine if someone wrote: Dear black females: stop stealing white male culture.

What does that imply? Think about what that implies for a minute. And then realise it happens.

John McWhorter has written about this extensively: academic achievement being rejected as "a white thing." Aspiring to be upwardly mobile being rejected as "a white thing." The idea that anyone has standing to navigate the entire sociocultural space and stand as its representative being rejected as "a white thing." It's real bullshit that commentators from McWhorter to Chris Rock have called people on, and its exactly why this silly woman can take her thesis and shove it up her ass. There is no such thing as a proprietary culture. She can't take out a patent on "sassyness." And if she finds a bit of unexpected diversity intruding on her little bubble of reality to be uncomfortable, she's the one who needs to unbunch.

https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mcwhorter-race.html

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Imagine if someone wrote: Dear black females: stop stealing white male culture.

What does that imply? Think about what that implies for a minute. And then realise it happens.

John McWhorter has written about this extensively: academic achievement being rejected as "a white thing." Aspiring to be upwardly mobile being rejected as "a white thing." The idea that anyone has standing to navigate the entire sociocultural space and stand as its representative being rejected as "a white thing." It's real bullshit that commentators from McWhorter to Chris Rock have called people on, and its exactly why this silly woman can take her thesis and shove it up her ass. There is no such thing as a proprietary culture. She can't take out a patent on "sassyness." And if she finds a bit of unexpected diversity intruding on her little bubble of reality to be uncomfortable, she's the one who needs to unbunch.

https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mcwhorter-race.html

It's not sassyness. You're lack of awareness on the topic has been pointed out enough. it's fine if you don't know or understand. Sometimes it helps to have a bit of humility.

And perhaps this is an American phenomenon. Nonetheless, there are many gay white males who put on affectations of black females. And it doesn't just "happen" but rather it is done consciously to be funny, to be popular, to gain attention, etc.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Yes, there are so-called mens' rights activists whose objections really amount to nothing more than "We don't get to pinch women on the bum at the office any more and therefore life is terrible." But if we're serious about equality, we're easily 20 years overdue for an in-depth societal conversation on how sexism reduces the quality of life for men as well as women, because it does reduce the quality of life for men as well. (and indeed the lifespan, despite what you may have read in the glib nonsense about hormones above.)

That was so not glib. Go do some actual research. Hell, here you go, y'lazy bugger. It's an example of hormones influencing lifespan. Do notice that they gave a shit about men first and that women were a afterthought for death.

http://www.texasheart.org/HIC/Topics/HSmart/women.cfm

Incidentally, the rest of the human race that's involved in feminism are already discussing how sexism reduces quality of life for men. What we're not doing is pretending minority groups are catered to, because we know better.

 

[suckpoppet]

And perhaps this is an American phenomenon.

I think you're right about that.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Also, I (as a black man) don't think that white women on TV are boring at all. I find them just as interesting as their black, Asian, etc. counterparts. Obviously, not everyone is going to see this issue the same way, but I'm telling you what I know based on my experiences. For some white gays, it IS a defense mechanism, of sorts. That "sassiness" and "not about the bullshit" demeanor they see in black women is what they adopt to combat the bs that comes with being gay in its tracks.

I also think a lot of the, ah, depictions are because anything 'other' is considered exotic and therefore "Oooooooooh, Shiny!" pops into play. The 'exotic'ness would be a part of racism (considering anything exotic that's not white and, to a lesser extent, coded as male) but the oooooh shiny seems to be human nature.

 

[luckynumbah7]

I think you're right about that.

Yeah, I haven't heard that other countries do that particular bit. They've got similar issues but different ways of expressing it.

 

[Gentleheart]

Poor black women...

Not only are the white gays stealing their culture, they're also taking their men as well.

Remember this fuckery?

 

[refujiunderground]

honestly, whenever i see gay guys in general "mimicking" black women or calling themselves "strong black women", i take real offense to that. it's a diss towards black women. it plays on the negative stereotypes about black women being angry, fiesty, hostile, sassy, having attitudes, being overly expressive and etc. it's not cool. the fact that the author is suggesting that black people specifically black women should embrace negative stereotypes that are set out about them shows her ignorance. just because you're black doesn't mean you have to embrace negative stereotypes set to degrade you. this is what many black americans do sadly. she seems to be unaware of the history of how black people have been viewed in america.

i also think that it's weird that she's targeting white gay guys when it's pretty much a lot of gay guys old, young, black, white, or whatever doing that shit. she apparently isn't aware of what she speaks about.

as for the outrage that i've seen from white gay guys concerning the article, it's funny how it seems that a lot of them are also ignorant as well or seem to want to play on the victim card despite the fact that although being gay is stigmatized. they seem to ignore the fact that they are still white men living in america. it also bothers me that those same guys REFUSED to acknowledge how white privilege seems to be used as a form of empowerment within the gay male community where white gay guys are idolized and get all the attention from media coverage and etc and nonwhites are pushed to the back. there's also some white gay guys that are on that segregation, racist shit too. i think it's weird how folks try to ignore that fact and then act like this shit isn't going on then telling the author that she's ignorant when they're even worse because they go about thinking and actually fleshing and living that shit out for real.

 

[luckynumbah7]

the fact that the author is suggesting that black people specifically black women should embrace negative stereotypes that are set out about them shows her ignorance.

Did I miss that bit? Where is it, if you don't mind copy/pasting? I know the author doesn't yet have a very good grasp of intersections, what with thinking homophobia is always based on someone knowing you're gay instead of going by stereotypes.

I'd suggest, not so tentatively, that the (specifically with regards to black women in the present day, history has a different reasoning) angry/sassy/hostile comes from the mix of sexism and racism - women are severely not encouraged to have an opinion or speak up. There's a reason I got called a bitch for saying damn near anything 'disagreeable', seems to be a time-honored tradition. You can see such things in this thread, people calling the author a bitch, that is. As an example, after so much of that I finally went "Fuck it" when I was in high school about being nice with my disagreements - because if I got shut down and called a Bitch! during nice, I might as well give 'em a reason to say it.

 

[suckpoppet]

because if I got shut down and called a Bitch! during nice, I might as well give 'em a reason to say it.

So true

 

[refujiunderground]

Did I miss that bit? Where is it, if you don't mind copy/pasting? I know the author doesn't yet have a very good grasp of intersections, what with thinking homophobia is always based on someone knowing you're gay instead of going by stereotypes.

I'd suggest, not so tentatively, that the (specifically with regards to black women in the present day, history has a different reasoning) angry/sassy/hostile comes from the mix of sexism and racism - women are severely not encouraged to have an opinion or speak up. There's a reason I got called a bitch for saying damn near anything 'disagreeable', seems to be a time-honored tradition. You can see such things in this thread, people calling the author a bitch, that is. As an example, after so much of that I finally went "Fuck it" when I was in high school about being nice with my disagreements - because if I got shut down and called a Bitch! during nice, I might as well give 'em a reason to say it.

did you read the article? you did quote it. she actually pulled her own card with this.

I need some of you to cut it the hell out. Maybe, for some of you, it’s a presumed mutual appreciation for Beyoncé and weaves that has you thinking that I’m going to be amused by you approaching me in your best “Shanequa from around the way” voice. I don’t know. What I do know is that I don’t care how well you can quote Madea, who told you that your booty was getting bigger than hers, how cute you think it is to call yourself a strong black woman, who taught you to twerk, how funny you think it is to call yourself Quita or Keisha or for which black male you’ve been bottoming — you are not a black woman, and you do not get to claim either blackness or womanhood. It is not yours. It is not for you.

i grew up around black women my whole life, my family is mostly consist of black women and they do not do this. their names are not quita or shanequa. they don't act sassy or fiesty where they're ready to fight the moment someone comes at them the wrong way. they don't act ghetto or "ratchet". they don't listen to beyonce, twerk and etc. who says that "strong black women" act like that? I guess if black women that don't act like the typical negative stereotypes that are set out for them or that are constantly played in commercials like the progressive one where they show the black couple where the black woman has a sassy attitude and flo brings out the piggy bank to start twerking, they're not strong huh?

it's sad that you seem to be getting so defensive when i'm basically calling her out for putting herself and other black women down like that.

 

[luckynumbah7]

did you read the article? you did quote it. she actually pulled her own card with this.



i grew up around black women, my family is mostly of black women and they do not do this. their names are not quita or shanequa. they don't act sassy. they don't act ghetto or "ratchet". they don't listen to beyonce, twerk and etc. who says that "strong black women" act like that? I guess if black women that don't act like the typical negative stereotypes that are set out for them or that are constantly played in commercials like the progressive one where they show the black couple where the black woman has a sassy attitude and flo brings out the piggy bank to start twerking, they're not strong huh?

it's sad that you seem to be getting so defensive when i'm basically calling her out for putting herself and other black women down like that.

Why is it people think I'm getting defensive? It was a simple explanation on why there's this meme that women (particularly black women) are called hostile. There's a difference between getting called hostile and being hostile.

It also depends on where the hell you live. You don't live in the inner city, great. I dunno shit from Madea since I haven't watched television in years and I don't do comedy series' since I find 'em trite and dull and, oh yes, full of stereotypes - but the rest of it I am familiar with since I moved to Philly. Hell, I'm familiar with some of it before I moved to philly, and that familiarity comes from white people doing the same things. Poorer white women in particular, with the not-centuries-old chosen names and the 'odd' (scare quote deliberate) hair, et cetera and so forth.

In that vein, lemmie rephrase - not only is it a sexism and racism thing, it can also involve, big surprise on this end, I'm sure - classism.

*Edited to add - if you're interested in matching games, look up the stereotypes for trailer trash white women and compare 'em to the stereotypes for black women. Awfully fuckin' similar, there. Not that everyone is a stereotype for their demographic, far from it - but stereotypes exist because people pick 'em out of a crowd of other behaviors and then say "We don't like these, get rid of 'em."

 

[refujiunderground]

Why is it people think I'm getting defensive? It was a simple explanation on why there's this meme that women (particularly black women) are called hostile. There's a difference between getting called hostile and being hostile.

It also depends on where the hell you live. You don't live in the inner city, great. I dunno shit from Madea since I haven't watched television in years and I don't do comedy series' since I find 'em trite and dull and, oh yes, full of stereotypes - but the rest of it I am familiar with since I moved to Philly. Hell, I'm familiar with some of it before I moved to philly, and that familiarity comes from white people doing the same things. Poorer white women in particular, with the not-centuries-old chosen names and the 'odd' (scare quote deliberate) hair, et cetera and so forth.

In that vein, lemmie rephrase - not only is it a sexism and racism thing, it can also involve, big surprise on this end, I'm sure - classism.

i think that you're missing the point of what i'm saying.

she basically played herself, black women and black people out with what she said without realizing it because she's ignorant herself. she basically was like "us black women are the stereotypes that you see on tv, radio and all that and only WE can behave like that". not realizing the negative history of the stereotypes that she's basically embracing that go back to slave times to degrade black people that to this day still live on because ignorant people like her don't bother to do the research. i wonder how she views black men.

she also doesn't realize that when gay guys view black women like that and "mimick" them, they are basically DISSING them. it basically degrades black women by saying that they are angry, hostile, fiesty, sassy, oversexualized and etc. displaying her ignorance and possible prejudice including racism (towards white people and black people as well-self hatred) and homophobia, she basically targeted white gay guys and told them in some generalization shit that only black women can be that way and that that is who they are. the same old "acting white" and "acting black" crap where white people are supposed to act all civilized and like they have sense and black people are supposed to act like they're savages and shit. once again, if you're aware about history, you would get the point.

you on the other hand actually are trying to defend her ignorance. here's my question. how do you view black women? do you view them the same way she does? i hope not.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Oh, I think she knows quite well she's getting dissed based on the behavior of quite a few gay men - it's hardly hidden. That's what she's complaining about - gay men are taking the ability to speak up and mocking the women who do speak up in a particular way. She's saying that they don't get to mock the idiosyncrasies of that because they obviously aren't black women. There's a difference between someone in a group poking fun at themselves and someone not in a group doing it. Gay men aren't mocking the black people who look like their often middle-class ass. Drag culture, for instance, often takes and mocks the current ability to speak out by making black women sound asinine.

The difference between my view and yours is that you consider hostile/outspoken/'sassy' as a negative stereotype. I also think it's a negative stereotype in that it's stereotyping some behaviors that I don't actually consider negative. The reason trailer trash don't get mocked like that as often in drag is because they're largely considered white. S'where 'white trash' came from, because the opposite of that is just 'trash' - ie, everyone else poor with those same behaviors that aren't white.

 

[luckynumbah7]

And how do I see black women? Not very well, my vision sucks.

Seriously though, I see 'em as family, at least the ones I interact with on a regular basis. They're in my class demographic and usually some form of lgbt. Hard to not get along with three types of shared history, there.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

there's definitely some intellectual dishonesty goin on in here... "oh black women don't have a patent on sass." no, they don't, but to pretend like there isn't an intentional parodying of this typecast is absolutely silly. Stevie Wonder could see it from outer space. I'm not even saying it's right or wrong especially since I do it all the time in the forums but chalking this all up to pure coincidence that the behaviors, language and mannerisms are identical mirror images is... again... just fucking silly.

 

[eastofeden]

i think that you're missing the point of what i'm saying.

she basically played herself, black women and black people out with what she said without realizing it because she's ignorant herself. she basically was like "us black women are the stereotypes that you see on tv, radio and all that and only WE can behave like that". not realizing the negative history of the stereotypes that she's basically embracing that go back to slave times to degrade black people that to this day still live on because ignorant people like her don't bother to do the research. i wonder how she views black men.

she also doesn't realize that when gay guys view black women like that and "mimick" them, they are basically DISSING them. it basically degrades black women by saying that they are angry, hostile, fiesty, sassy, oversexualized and etc. displaying her ignorance and possible prejudice including racism (towards white people and black people as well-self hatred) and homophobia, she basically targeted white gay guys and told them in some generalization shit that only black women can be that way and that that is who they are. the same old "acting white" and "acting black" crap where white people are supposed to act all civilized and like they have sense and black people are supposed to act like they're savages and shit. once again, if you're aware about history, you would get the point.

you on the other hand actually are trying to defend her ignorance. here's my question. how do you view black women? do you view them the same way she does? i hope not.

THIS is why I attempted to and then stopped myself from commenting.....

I know ALOT of black women...and they all act like...uh...um...individuals...kinda like white women do. I don't even know who she is talking about so the frame of reference is lost on me. How do you respond to that? ...and who are the gay men who do this? ..and what exactly are the acting like? Chaka Khan? For me...the thesis sounds silly because who in the world is gonna say that gay men are insulting white women because a handful of them might emulate this or that one...as though white women all behaved in one specific manner. I think she sells black women short.

Is she talking about drag queens? Last I heard it was an "honor" to be emulated by drag queens (if they are good) I want to know who these black women are and what they act like....

 

[luckynumbah7]

The difference between my view and yours is that you consider hostile/outspoken/'sassy' as a negative stereotype. I also think it's a negative stereotype in that it's stereotyping some behaviors that I don't actually consider negative. The reason trailer trash don't get mocked like that as often in drag is because they're largely considered white. S'where 'white trash' came from, because the opposite of that is just 'trash' - ie, everyone else poor with those same behaviors that aren't white.

Fer instance, I don't give a shit about how someone wants to do their hair. I do care why. Skin lightening cream, fer instance, is bullshit. In this case, the hair thing it isn't just "pretending all Black Woman Culture is like that" like you seem to think it is - It's Poor Black Woman Culture in the cities - and not even everyone there, either, far from it. The difference seems to be that All Black Women are being painted with that brush and since racism exists, white people think all black women are like that. But that doesn't negate that getting mocked for having a weave and long nails is bullshit.

 

[luckynumbah7]

THIS is why I attempted to and then stopped myself from commenting.....

I know ALOT of black women...and they all act like...uh...um...individuals...kinda like white women do. I don't even know who she is talking about so the frame of reference is lost on me. How do you respond to that? ...and who are the gay men who do this? ..and what exactly are the acting like? Chaka Khan? For me...the thesis sounds silly because who in the world is gonna say that gay men are insulting white women because a handful of them might emulate this or that one...as though white women all behaved in one specific manner. I think she sells black women short.

Is she talking about drag queens? Last I heard it was an "honor" to be emulated by drag queens (if they are good) I want to know who these black women are and what they act like....

Google Shirley Q Liqour, for a start. And they don't 'act' like anything in particular - what's being mocked is their appearance and the fact that women aren't supposed to say "Boo". Which seems to be getting lost. There's no shortage of racist drag queens, let alone sexist drag queens. Drag culture on the gay men's side is often incredibly sexist.