Dharun Ravi Indicted in Tyler Clementi Suicide

[evanrick]

My point was - the deportation is inhumane in his case and should not be a goal of the prosecutors.

I was the first one to resurrect the topic, and in the very first post I said I consider the sentence too lenient. However, it is not irrelevant to me what changes are made. I am against more than 6 months of jail and completely against deportation. It is the financial side that needs to be boosted, as well as the community service.

yeah why dont you just blame everything on Tyler. why dont we just drop all charges against Ravi so all the homophobes in the world can feel free to invade your privacy because you are different?

 

[evanrick]

Much of the gay community is superficially vicious and vindictive. It's easier to blame one kid than to face more complex social issues. Either way, here's a couple of links, all from Huffpost, but written by different people. None of them proves anything other than that there are multiple viewpoints and none of them are in the minority.

We are facing the issues that are long overdue but you seem to be more interested in protecting the status quo when, like Giancaro said, precedence is the issue here. If Ravi manages to 'get by' with this type of bullying, I would expect suicides to increase not decrease.

 

[evanrick]

No, she is not interested in politics.

And yeah, people with families that can support them in freshman year of college are beyond reprehensible.

I am fascinated by how quickly you find new reasons to hate the guy the second an old one collapses.

There are no 'new' reasons here, his entire demeanor and life fits his actions against Tyler and were pathological. Ravi refuses to admit he is homophobic when hes in fact the worst kind of bully because he has been conditioned to treat gay people like Tyler as 'worthy of torment' to the point he has convinced himself that he did nothing wrong.

Your defense of his actions are pathological too, yet you hide behind the idea that you yourself supported a more tougher sentence. I think that tells us you feel the same way that I do and the way that Giancarlo feels, but you cannot admit that to yourself, nor can a vast amount of society who feel bulling is not a 'problem' because people cannot face their own double standards.

You have to see past your own bias eventually.

 

[Rolyo85]

Wow, you got me all figured out, don't you?

Sadly for you, there is no reason for me to deny feeling bad for Tyler or angry at Ravi. I am however an extremely analytical (self as well) person, and I am OCD about observing people's and societal reactions to everything. I DO see Ravi's point of view. Not in the sense that I support it, but in the sense that I see it. He was no more homophobic than any other arrogant straight guy who grew up with no gay guys around him (hell, no more than ME growing up in Bulgaria), and FAR less so than Marriage "defenders" and religious nutjobs.

There IS a middle ground between the easy "Kill him! Kill him with fire!" and the absurd "It was all Tyler's fault", and that is that a shallow and arrogant young man made stupid decisions that will likely determine the rest of his life and that might have been the tipping point in another young man's decision to end his life.


And the gay community's divisiveness DOES tell us something, because this is not a political issue, and we have no reason to have varying opinions... unless things are simply not as clear cut as the bloodthirsty among us would like them to.

It's easy to talk about bullying, but Tyler was NOT bullied in Rutgers. Ravi never planned for this to happen, he wasn't going to tape Tyler if Tyler hadn't brought an older man into his AND Ravi's dorm room. Ravi was justified to be nervous, even if he wasn't justified in doing what he did next.

To call his attitude "homophobia" and his actions "bullying" has enough truth in it to sound good and be the easy answer, but it also has enough fallacy to make the stone casting unjust. And we're about justice here, not vengeance... right?

 

[Kulindahr]

doesnt tell us shit. all it says is that we are beholden to prevailing views, which is that of homophobia.

What? That's a brilliant non sequitur.

 

[Kulindahr]

yeah why dont you just blame everything on Tyler. why dont we just drop all charges against Ravi so all the homophobes in the world can feel free to invade your privacy because you are different?

Are you majoring in non sequitur this morning???

With a dash of reduction ad absurdam for seasoning?

 

[Kulindahr]

We are facing the issues that are long overdue but you seem to be more interested in protecting the status quo when, like Giancaro said, precedence is the issue here. If Ravi manages to 'get by' with this type of bullying, I would expect suicides to increase not decrease.

There are no 'new' reasons here, his entire demeanor and life fits his actions against Tyler and were pathological. Ravi refuses to admit he is homophobic when hes in fact the worst kind of bully because he has been conditioned to treat gay people like Tyler as 'worthy of torment' to the point he has convinced himself that he did nothing wrong.

Your defense of his actions are pathological too, yet you hide behind the idea that you yourself supported a more tougher sentence. I think that tells us you feel the same way that I do and the way that Giancarlo feels, but you cannot admit that to yourself, nor can a vast amount of society who feel bulling is not a 'problem' because people cannot face their own double standards.

You have to see past your own bias eventually.

You're trying to make this case about something that wasn't even in the charges. That means you favor a miscarriage of justice of sorts: punishing something for what you want them to be punished for, whether there's a conviction or not.

Your characterization of Ravi bears no resemblance to what's been in the press, which is more that of a privileged and thus sort of clueless plus immature kid who only found his roommate's sexual orientation of interest because it provided an opportunity for himself to get attention and look kool. If there was any "bullying" involved, it wasn't because he didn't like gays, but because he didn't regard most other people as actually people, just as objects. It wouldn't have mattered to Ravi if Tyler were kissing a female, if it had been a sort of female who would make people want to watch his illicit viewing -- for that matter, it wouldn't have mattered if it wasn't kissing, but was some (read any) behavior that would draw attention and bring Ravi 'points' for showing it.

 

[Kulindahr]

... there is no reason for me to deny feeling bad for Tyler or angry at Ravi. I am however an extremely analytical (self as well) person, and I am OCD about observing people's and societal reactions to everything. I DO see Ravi's point of view. Not in the sense that I support it, but in the sense that I see it. He was no more homophobic than any other arrogant straight guy who grew up with no gay guys around him (hell, no more than ME growing up in Bulgaria), and FAR less so than Marriage "defenders" and religious nutjobs.

There IS a middle ground between the easy "Kill him! Kill him with fire!" and the absurd "It was all Tyler's fault", and that is that a shallow and arrogant young man made stupid decisions that will likely determine the rest of his life and that might have been the tipping point in another young man's decision to end his life.


And the gay community's divisiveness DOES tell us something, because this is not a political issue, and we have no reason to have varying opinions... unless things are simply not as clear cut as the bloodthirsty among us would like them to.

It's easy to talk about bullying, but Tyler was NOT bullied in Rutgers. Ravi never planned for this to happen, he wasn't going to tape Tyler if Tyler hadn't brought an older man into his AND Ravi's dorm room. Ravi was justified to be nervous, even if he wasn't justified in doing what he did next.

To call his attitude "homophobia" and his actions "bullying" has enough truth in it to sound good and be the easy answer, but it also has enough fallacy to make the stone casting unjust. And we're about justice here, not vengeance... right?

Extremely well stated.

 

[Rolyo85]

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[bankside]

Since this is not a court of law, we are free to speculate well beyond any charges that would stand up in court and we're free to have opinions about aspects of the situaiton which have nothing to do with violation of a criminal code.

Certainly any young man could be embarassed and overwhelmed by the stress of being at a new school and having any awkward roommate situation regardless of gender. What is difficult to prove, to a legal standard or not, is the effect this has on one [STRIKE]closeted[/STRIKE] vulnerable young man whose roommate decides to behave like an ass.

Proof or not, it doesn't excuse behaving like an ass. And in my view behaving like an ass is the sort of thing that should not be given a free pass at the university level. To attend a university is to accept joining a community with certain standards of conduct and social obligations that go beyond the bare social minima. On that count, Ravi has no place there.

As far as his immigration status, that's really something he could have managed on his own. Countries are free to deport non-citizen trouble makers. It cannot be considered to be disproportionate because it was within his scope of control. He was an adult. If he's smart enough to be admitted to higher education, he's smart enough to make his way down to a citizenship office and apply.

 

[bankside]

Tyler wasn't closeted and Ravi didn't "out" him, just for the record.

Thank you for the correction. I was thinking about violation of privacy and my mind just illogically jumped to "closeted."

 

[Rolyo85]

I am tired of giving you responses you obviously aren't interested in understanding. There is not a single word in your post I haven't addressed multiple times, not a single thought you haven't already expressed ad nauseum. It bores the crap out of me.

As for my proof of the divisiveness - look at this topic for fuck's sake...

 

[Rolyo85]

Yep, and I was one of those who said it was inadequate. I was - in point of fact - the first to say it ^_^ Can't seem to recall calling Ravi "poor" or expressing ANY compassion for him either. But your zealot mentality doesn't make the distinction between understanding and taking sides. Honestly, I'm baffled at how the Republican party failed to recruit you. You are always so damn certain

 

[Kulindahr]

Where is my zealot mentality? You keep claiming that but you haven't proved it. And you didn't say his sentence was inadequate. I think several years would have been more suitable considering the crimes he was convicted of doing. You are the one who seems more of a candidate for the republican party... considering you blame the real victim here (being Tyler).

This is Rush Limbaugh "reasoning": misrepresenting someone's position and then flat out lying about it.

Thus demonstrating a "zealot mentality".

 

[Rolyo85]

Thank you, Kuli. I didn't even have to prove anything. Giancarlo proved it for me.

 

[Rolyo85]

It is though. You've been consistently misrepresenting my position (for example claiming I'm on Ravi's side when I've said multiple times that's the opposite of what's true, and given ample examples why), and flat out lying about it (when you claimed I blamed Tyler, which I have never done).

What do you say to that?

 

[Rolyo85]

I say that you DID lie about me blaming Tyler.

I say that you DID misrepresent my opinion by continuously claiming I am sided with Ravi. Nothing in my posts suggest that, and if anything does, feel free to quote it SPECIFICALLY.

I say that I have not misrepresented your opinion. I have interpreted it. You keep wanting Ravi to be punished for his crime. He was punished for his crime. NOBODY has ever been punished for his crime, yet he was. But that's not enough for you. The only conclusion, the only interpretation I can come up with is that you want vengeance. I could be wrong, but I don't claim you said anything other than what you've said. You exhibit clear lack of interest for Ravi's well being, in fact constantly repeating how you don't care about him. So we have someone you 1) don't care about, and 2) you want to be punished more severely than he already has been. Again, this to me sounds like vengeance.


EVEN if I had misrepresented your opinions, your doing so (I notice you didn't deny it) doesn't make it right. And stop hiding behind what others have done or said. Man up and own your attitude and behavior.

That's what I say about that. Your turn.

 

[Rolyo85]

Oh my god, prior vendetta THIS IS THE ONLY ISSUE WE'VE EVER ARGUED ABOUT!

I love how the vendetta didn't come up until I said "vengeance". My "misrepresentation" didn't come up until Kuli accused you of doing it. Everything you say comes from someone else. You have some opinion driven by random impulses, and you grasp at anything that could support or validate it. I have not "failed" to prove anything. You just don't want to admit it (I would be greatly surprised if you were even aware of it to be honest), and there is NOTHING I could say to "prove" it to you. This entire topic is not about me trying to prove anything to you, it's arguing publicly with your repetitive viciousness, so that the other users can see how biased they are. This is a spectator sport, it has nothing to do with you.

I gladly own my attitude towards you. We share many viewpoints, yet I feel more sympathetic to Chance who I disagree with 4 times out of 5. Which is HIGHLY irrelevant as far as Dharun Ravi is concerned, so don't try to make it personal. That's too low even for you.

 

[pat grimshaw]

^ oh dear!

 

[Rolyo85]

We've argued significantly in the past.

False. Another lie