Do You Believe In An Afterlife?

[Tantric-Master]

This is the first time I've heard this piece played on the organ, but the Second Movement of Dvorak's New World Symphony is perhaps the most beautiful classical music piece I have ever heard.

This particular movement from Dvorak's New World Symphony is unquestionably one of my personal favorite classical music pieces as well.

When I was in Prague, I made it a point to visit the cemetery where Dvorak is buried.

 

[Tantric-Master]

I'm not sure if anyone here has attended a "Death Cafe" where issues related to death are discussed in a safe setting ... some being online and some being in person. It is NOT a counseling group and it is NOT a bereavement group ... but some very interesting topics come up including but not limited to after death communications and the afterlife.

Here is the link to a listing of Death Cafes if anyone is interesting.

https://deathcafe.com/

P.S. I've attended many death cafes and have enjoyed them with my favorite having been the one at the Jungian Institute in NYC (which unfortunately ended with the physical death of the Jungian analyst who hosted the group.)

 

[rareboy]

I'm not sure if anyone here has attended a "Death Cafe" where issues related to death are discussed in a safe setting ... some being online and some being in person. It is NOT a counseling group and it is NOT a bereavement group ... but some very interesting topics come up including but not limited to after death communications and the afterlife.

Here is the link to a listing of Death Cafes if anyone is interesting.

https://deathcafe.com/

P.S. I've attended many death cafes and have enjoyed them with my favorite having been the one at the Jungian Institute in NYC (which unfortunately ended with the physical death of the Jungian analyst who hosted the group.)

While the Death Cafe was underway? That would be a hoot.

 

[Dargelos]

That is a little reminicent of the time that the AGM of The Clairvoyant Society had to be postponed due to unforseen circumstances.

But back to topic.
There are those at the very hard end of the BDSM scene who deliberately engineer near death experiences. The sub is tied to the operating table where the master uses medical style apparatus to control the oxygen supply. Oxygen starvation produces euphoria and hallucinations. Sound effects can be added via headphones to guide the direction of the subjects hallucinations. I have never done this, nor do I ever want to so I have no proof that it is the same as the NDE when you are actualy dying. It sounds the same, the biological mechanism is the same. If the master is not skilled enough the NDE can soon become an actual death experience. This is not unusual in cases of solo sexual asphyxiation which are often assumed to be suicide when they are not. It's dangerous enough when done by an expert, don't try it on your own.

That persons are prepared to take these risks in pursuit of some ultimate thrill proves something, I'm not sure what. Maybe that there is nothing sacred or divine about a NDE, anymore than there is about an acid trip. It's just the result of what is happening to your body and does not offer any evidence about an afterlife, one way or the other.

 

[Araucaria]

There was a movie released in the late 1980s called Flatliners, during the time that Dr. Raymond Moody's books had become popular. The movie had the provocative storyline that medical students deliberately induced near-death experiences on each other, and then revived each other before actual death could set in. It turned out to be a disappointment, in that it showed very little of what actually happened in those induced NDEs, and fell back into trite moralizing. Were the filmmakers and writers really that unimaginative, or unable to figure out how to show them? Couldn't they at least speculate, or failing that, get ideas from people who had actually experienced NDEs?

As for asphyxiation from BDSM sex play, yes, oxygen deprivation and the resulting carbon dioxide buildup in the brain can induced hallucinations, but hopefully the process is stopped before an actual NDE can take place. Dr. Moody himself went to some lengths to explain that oxygen derivation and carbon dioxide overload could not in themselves explain near-death experiences.

 

[Dargelos]

Is the movie Flatliners worth watching? Your review is anything but enthusiastic. Should I waste my time?
Moving on to a more recent flick, Oppenheimer, raises the question of what happens when your death is in an atomic inferno. Thousands of Japanese civillians who had an expectation of going to paradise at the end of a long life instead had their brains vapourised in a thousandth of a second. There is no possibility of a NDE in a death like this. If the induction proceedure, with the dreams of the white lights and all that presentation pizzazz is necessary before one can be accepted into heaven, then it means that anyone who has an instant death such as in an atom bomb blast, is going to miss out on their chance to go to heaven. That does not sound fair. There would have to be a fast track route into the afterlife in these cases. And if that works in certain cases, why not in every case. And then a NDE serves no purpose, except as an interesting topic for discussion.

 

[fredroy]

I sort of remember watching Flatliners on HBO. I watched it and that's all I remember. I remember more from watching Poltergeist or ET.

 

[Dargelos]

Can't have been that good then.

 

[rareboy]

Well as someone with an NDE in 1994...it just doesn't happen.

At least not in my case.

It is sudden and black. And coming out of it, there is no life altering awareness. There's no one pulling you forward. No one pulling you back. It is like being born in reverse.

That is all.

 

[fredroy]

I dunno. I watched Dune on HBO and it took me a couple of weeks to get through after I taped it. Put my ass right to sleep. It's supposed to be a great movie. Meh.

 

[Araucaria]

Is the movie Flatliners worth watching? Your review is anything but enthusiastic. Should I waste my time?
Moving on to a more recent flick, Oppenheimer, raises the question of what happens when your death is in an atomic inferno. Thousands of Japanese civillians who had an expectation of going to paradise at the end of a long life instead had their brains vapourised in a thousandth of a second. There is no possibility of a NDE in a death like this. If the induction proceedure, with the dreams of the white lights and all that presentation pizzazz is necessary before one can be accepted into heaven, then it means that anyone who has an instant death such as in an atom bomb blast, is going to miss out on their chance to go to heaven. That does not sound fair. There would have to be a fast track route into the afterlife in these cases. And if that works in certain cases, why not in every case. And then a NDE serves no purpose, except as an interesting topic for discussion.

I would not bother to watch Flatliners. I watched the movie because I found the premise intriguing, but once I saw it, I got the feeling that the moviemakers couldn't figure out how to convey their idea, so they fell back on a simplistic "good people go to a good place, and bad people go to a bad place" formula. The movie became boring, instead of delivering on the exciting story that was promised.

You raise an interesting question about what happens to people who are instantly vaporized. First, remember that a near death experience is just that-- it is the experience of someone who came close to death, and came back to tell about it. Your question presumes, as I think many people (including me) do, that someone who actually does die goes through experiences similar to someone who experienced an NDE, only they don't come back. Basically, you're asking what is a near death experience? Does someone still have to have a corporeal body and brain to be able to experience it-- that is, are NDEs still a biological function? If so, people who are instantly vaporized would be deprived of the "wonderful" experience of transitioning-- into the afterlife for those who believe in it, or into nothingness, as the doubters would have it.

I myself have wondered if it makes a difference if a person is vaporized instantly, or dies suddenly in an accident or due to a murder, etc. I suspect Tantric-Master might have more knowledge or insight on the subject than I do. But I would hazard to guess that people who believe that our consciousness, or soul, transcends death and continues on, would say that the experience of going into a place of light and love, of meeting dead relatives and beings of light, and so on, is not in any way dependent on the corporeal body. Though I suppose that people with certain beliefs, such as Tibetan monks, think that it is good for a soul to have a "proper" transition into the afterlife. I would wonder if they might be concerned that someone who dies instantly would not have that experience.

And as Rareboy said, there are some people who have come near to death, who have no recollection of having an NDE. Why do some people have it, and others don't?

 

[Dargelos]

If you go to a party, or a show, or an anything, fully expecting that you won't enjoy it then you probably won't. If I was dying, I would not be expecting to see or feel anything wonderful so I would not be disappointed when nothing happened.
Someone who had been brought up to believe that a life of virtue would be rewarded is primed to expect a nice coda. Let them have their 90 seconds of happiness. It does no harm.

 

[Kahaih]

/\ @ it does no harm

If they are readying themselves for their 50 virgins, their boner could be a problem for the undertaker.

 

[Dargelos]

Undertakers have their ways, which the public never get to hear about.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

I dunno. I watched Dune on HBO and it took me a couple of weeks to get through after I taped it. Put my ass right to sleep. It's supposed to be a great movie. Meh.

Was this the new one with Timothée Chalamet? Or the old one directed by David Lynch? The David Lynch Dune has put quite a lot of people to sleep, and mystified many moire who managed to stay awake. Not Lynch's greatest achievement.

 

[fredroy]

It was in the '80s. I suppose that's the old one.

 

[Tantric-Master]

There was a movie released in the late 1980s called Flatliners, during the time that Dr. Raymond Moody's books had become popular. The movie had the provocative storyline that medical students deliberately induced near-death experiences on each other, and then revived each other before actual death could set in. It turned out to be a disappointment, in that it showed very little of what actually happened in those induced NDEs, and fell back into trite moralizing. Were the filmmakers and writers really that unimaginative, or unable to figure out how to show them? Couldn't they at least speculate, or failing that, get ideas from people who had actually experienced NDEs?

As for asphyxiation from BDSM sex play, yes, oxygen deprivation and the resulting carbon dioxide buildup in the brain can induced hallucinations, but hopefully the process is stopped before an actual NDE can take place. Dr. Moody himself went to some lengths to explain that oxygen derivation and carbon dioxide overload could not in themselves explain near-death experiences.

Once again, this is a well-informed post. Many studies have been done on the effects of sensory deprivation, fasting, and related practices triggering induced "religious and mystical experiences" that can look like NDEs in many ways. Here is a good article on that subject.

Hallucinations, Sensory Deprivation and Fasting: The Physiological Causes of Religious and Mystical Experiences

Hallucinations, Sensory Deprivation and Fasting: The Physiological Causes of Religious and Mystical Experiences: Scientific investigations of artificially induced visions and supernatural-seeming episodes seem to explain why people have these kinds of convincing experiences.

www.humanreligions.info

In my own NDE, there was also verifiable remote viewing far beyond the physical body and an intuitive certainty that not only does life continue in some form without the physical body but also that everything was interconnected in a way that seemed strange and mysterious to me at that time. That served as a catalyst for turning eastward and into meditation to investigate further in an experiential manner. By the way, my NDE occurred BEFORE information on NDEs was widely available as it became with Dr. Moody. What happened during my NDE was completely alien to my belief system (Roman Catholicism at that time) whereas many NDE "visions" are considered to be projections of one's belief system.

 

[pornoboy]

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[cityboy-stl]

You know....all this metaphysical discussion just proves the point.
Either there is an afterlife, or there isn't.
Either God is real, or God isn't real.
They are binary possibilities.

It shouldn't be this freaking hard, complicated, ambiguous, intangible, mysterious, or so much guess work.
If God supposedly loves and cares so much about humans, where is he?
Just show the fuck up. Actually be real. Say something. So we can stop arguing and killing each other over YOU, and we think YOU want.
What does the ultimate authority think and want?

We could use some guidance, leadership and direction that only YOU have the power to provide and enforce. You know....like a REAL FATHER.

Because left alone, humans are getting close to destroying civilization and the entire planet along with it.

Hear anything? Nope. Me neither.

 

[Tantric-Master]

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Stephen Hawking is a brilliant scientist but not exactly an authority on this subject. Nonetheless, he is entitled to his opinion.

You might consider reading the book "Quantum Questions, The Mystical Writings of the World's Greatest Physicists" edited by Ken Wilbur. It contains the "mystical" writings of physicists such as Einstein, Schroedinger, Jeans, Planck, Eddington, DeBroglie, etc. David Bohm, a protege of Einstein's, has similar views though his writings are not included in the book. Here's the link to the book on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Questions-Mystical-Writings-Physicists/dp/1570627681/