Do You Believe In An Afterlife?

[Tantric-Master]

Only for the flock, though. Those doing the fleecing are focused on the here and now and the bank balance.

It often amazes me too how the "God" of the various religions is so concerned with raising money and the bank balance.

 

[Tantric-Master]

In my experience, that is more of an outsider's perspective of religion, not someone who has attended church and participated in the life of the church. Can't speak for mosques or synagogues, although I have attended them only a few times. Most sermons and homilies and lessons are on day-to-day life, and how we treat others, and how we regard material possessions.

Churches I have attended and supported did not preach on the afterlife or spend significant time teaching about it. The focus was on a moral code, a social imperative, and included centrally, aid to the poor, and community support. Churches I have known personally were Calvinist, Evangelical, Liturgical, and Episcopal, variously.

They sponsored children's activities, including sports teams and recreational trips. They sponsored and hosted food banks, free clothes "stores", shelters, scout troops, hay rides, Heifer International, voter registration drives and poll volunteers, English as Second Language Instruction, LGBTQ support groups, Alcoholics Anonymous groups, Narcotics Anonymous groups, Habitat for Humanity chapters, disaster relief teams, exercise and yoga classes, public concerts of various genres, farmers markets, Halloween carnivals, spaghetti dinners, Valentines Day banquets, senior activities, scholarships, tutoring and donations to local school supply drives, winterization and home repairs for the elderly, transportation to clinics and hospitals, community gardens, art shows and sales, craft fairs, provided services and facilities for weddings & funerals, and supported legislation for social justice.

Religion is guilty of many things, but it is also responsible for many positive things in a community.

What I consistently found in most churches was a propensity to talk about what "those people" were doing somewhere without "those people" being present to answer. I hear exactly the same thing in reverse from anti-religious people, imputing various things from yesteryear or some worst examples rather than the typical. It's very much like the political divide in the US: both the right and the left exaggerate the ills of the other, both the right and the left lie about the truth, and both the right and the left are right about some of their claims.

Thinking people are sick of the demands from both sides for polarization.

Pogroms are not the solution.

I read your post with great amusement and it didn't surprise me that the first two churches you mentioned regarding knowing personally were Evangelical and Calvinist.

Of course these churches NO LONGER preach about the afterlife (heaven, hell, fire and brimstone) as in the past because surveys show that the majority of younger people no longer believe in the hell and damnation crap that they preached in the past, and the churches are certainly not going to preach something that drives away potential church members and revenue for the church leaders.

As far as teaching a "moral code", it's good to instruct people who don't have the intelligence to figure out on their own that it's not a good idea to kill, to steal, to bear false witness against their neighbor, to commit adultery, and so on. Such people are in serious need of instruction since it's obvious that they can't figure this out themselves; for most people, this is common sense. These "believers" can even quote an authority ... God Himself. These "believer" scholars know all the quotes but there are very few of them who can carry on an intelligent conversation except for the ministers themselves who are often quite slick and educated ... many of whom have been exposed like the preacher Ravi Zacharias recently. LOL

Of course, these churches have social events, as you mentioned, since that's a very effective way of keeping the congregation together and serves as an incentive for staying in the church while, at the same time, not associating with "outsiders" who might question their "deeply held religious beliefs" based on their book reading. It's best to keep such people from being exposed to contrary opinions. Having talked to many evangelists, I've noticed that all they can do is quote a book which they say is the "unadulterated word of God". Talking to them is like talking to a recording ... bereft of any intelligent thought processes. They remind me of the classic song in the Broadway Musical Book of Mormon "I believe" ... where the key line is "I'm a Mormon and Mormons just believe".

I once attended a multi-week "Questioning Christianity" group hosted by leaders in Tim Keller's church. I wouldn't have stayed past the first week except that there were very good questions being asked particularly by one very sincere young person in the group. At the end, when asked what he thought about their beliefs, he paused for a very long time before reluctantly conceding: "It's bizarre. I can't make any sense of it." Even the co-host for the group conceded that she didn't believe some of the stuff but really joined because she liked the social events and community events of which you wrote. That's the key for keeping such groups together --- entertain them, take care of them as best as possible, and rake in the dough. There's a lot of money to be made in religion.

Your statement that criticism comes from "outsiders" is true to some extent. However, many of those "outsiders" were once "insiders" who finally awakened and realized that a lot of what they were being taught in the churches was not true. It is well known that the fastest growing denomination in the United States is the "nones" who have NO RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION. I've investigated the various religious groups personally myself but prefer to be an "outsider" though I do occasionally go to any social events which interest me.

Yours was a very interesting post. Unquestionably, the various church groups do a lot of good work as they must show something for all the money that they rake in. In addition, there are unquestionably a significant number of really nice people at these churches including sincere preachers. However, it's virtually impossible to have an intelligent conversation with virtually all of the ones I have met ... as the conversation quickly degenerates into "but the book says .... " and that is the limit to any responses that they might have.


Enjoy your church activities and keep reading your books. Keep in mind that EVERYTHING that was done by Jesus, including rising from the dead, has been done by others. I have sought out such people or people that knew them throughout the course of my life. Such people can point one to the direct experiences so that one KNOWS for one's self instead of relying on the preachers and their books which most likely have distorted or edited the actual teachings of Jesus. The Christian churches are slowly but surely changing their positions lest they lose parishioners and accompanying revenues. Some of the preachers may be sincere but the teachings are indeed changing in order for the churches to survive. LOL

P.S. I had to laugh about the part of your post that mentioned GLBT support groups as the Evangelists and fundamentalist Christian groups are the most anti-GLBT organizations around based on "the book says .....". They won't even do something as simple as bake a cake for a gay couple because "the book says .....". LOL

P.S.S. Somehow, my sense is that this post may trigger some hot buttons. Bring it on. LOL

 

[Peloso]

Churches I have attended and supported did not preach on the afterlife or spend significant time teaching about it. The focus was on a moral code, a social imperative, and included centrally, aid to the poor, and community support. Churches I have known personally were Calvinist, Evangelical, Liturgical, and Episcopal, variously.

They sponsored children's activities, including sports teams and recreational trips. They sponsored and hosted food banks, free clothes "stores", shelters, scout troops, hay rides, Heifer International, voter registration drives and poll volunteers, English as Second Language Instruction, LGBTQ support groups, Alcoholics Anonymous groups, Narcotics Anonymous groups, Habitat for Humanity chapters, disaster relief teams, exercise and yoga classes, public concerts of various genres, farmers markets, Halloween carnivals, spaghetti dinners, Valentines Day banquets, senior activities, scholarships, tutoring and donations to local school supply drives, winterization and home repairs for the elderly, transportation to clinics and hospitals, community gardens, art shows and sales, craft fairs, provided services and facilities for weddings & funerals, and supported legislation for social justice.

Fair enough. But did you know that all of these good deeds can be performed without being directed by the church or under the threat of eternal damnation?

 

[Kahaih]

Fair enough. But did you know that all of these good deeds can be performed without being directed by the church or under the threat of eternal damnation?

What's more, it's my understanding that a lot of these "good deeds" are mandatory in order to qualify for tax exempt status.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Fair enough. But did you know that all of these good deeds can be performed without being directed by the church or under the threat of eternal damnation?

That is another aspect of Christianity that I repeatedly hear noted on JUB, but with the implication it is typical of all or even most of Christianity. In centuries past, it was more the message than today.

And it is particularly relevant to distinguish between sects or denominations of Christianity. There are certainly Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians and others who don't even believe in Hell, much less preach or teach it. So, good works are never taught as a fire insurance policy in those churches. They are taught as the right way to have a better world, not unlike the Hindu teaching of karma.

As for pagans able to do good things and not believe the dogma of the Church, yes, many Christians acknowledge that good works come from all people, although they may not believe they are consequential without grace or providence.

What's more, it's my understanding that a lot of these "good deeds" are mandatory in order to qualify for tax exempt status.

Then your understanding would be of only some of Christianity and its doctrines. The teachings and interpretations are widely variant. Oddly, divergent groups such as Roman Catholic and Latter Day Saints have a very similar bent toward works and away from grace or forgiveness.

Many mainstream Protestant denominations do not teach that good works are mandatory, but are the natural response to the love of God. This again is not unlike karma. What you put into a spiritual ecosystem is what goes around and eventually comes around. So, if your heart is warmed and you feel the love of God in you, your natural response will be to follow suit and love others.

This whole line of misrespresntation reminds me of how caricatures are substituted for real people every day. On this forum, a few people always talk about Texans as if they are all redneck conservatives, yet almost half of them voted against Trump TWICE. Of course, it's much easier to dismiss them en masse, you know, the way all white people do blacks, or gays, or liberals.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

Fair enough. But did you know that all of these good deeds can be performed without being directed by the church or under the threat of eternal damnation?

Leave aside the threat of eternal damnation (which, as @NotHardUp1 said, is touched on rarely or not at all by most mainstream Protestant churches anymore -- it wasn't even touched on much when I was growing up in a Presbyterian church in the late '60s and '70s -- and never comes up when I go to a Catholic or Episcopal service for the music).

Yes, people can do good deeds outside of churches, and many do. But if I look around and count up everything I see around me, small-scale as well as large-scale, I see an awful lot more of actual good works (soup kitchens and food pantries, for instance) done by groups affiliated with churches/synagogues/mosques/etc. than not affiliated with them. And rare indeed is the charity hospital that wasn't started by some religious organization.

As far as teaching a "moral code", it's good to instruct people who don't have the intelligence to figure out on their own that it's not a good idea to kill, to steal, to bear false witness against their neighbor, to commit adultery, and so on. Such people are in serious need of instruction since it's obvious that they can't figure this out themselves; for most people, this is common sense.

No. No, it is not common sense.

Almost everyone has to be taught those things. Most children go through a brief period where they steal, and almost all of them at some point lie to stay out of trouble ("I didn't do it! HE did it!", which is bearing false witness).

Most people are taught by parents or other family members not to steal or bear false witness and not to kill (except in specific cases like insects or like animals when they're hunting) when they're young enough that they don't remember being taught, which is why it seems like common sense, but they were taught. Same with adultery: when you're taught what the word means, you're taught that it's bad.

If you don't believe that people have to be taught not to steal, bear false witness, or commit adultery, go spend some time at Al-Anon or ACoA meetings with people who were brought up by alcoholics or addicts and weren't taught those things as children. They had to learn them as teens or adults, in lessons that were usually very painful.

I had to laugh about the part of your post that mentioned GLBT support groups as the Evangelists and fundamentalist Christian groups are the most anti-GLBT organizations around based on "the book says .....".

@NotHardUp1 wasn't talking about Evangelical and fundamentalist Christian churches when he talked about LGBT support groups, and I expect he thought that was obvious enough that it didn't need to be stated. You may not be old enough to remember the 1980s well, but as the AIDS crisis got serious and LGBT people were getting major backlash, there were countless individual Episcopalian, United Church of Christ, Quaker, Unitarian (granted, not technically Christian), and even some Lutheran and Methodist churches (and Reform Jewish synagogues, too) who made a point of welcoming gay people, started support groups, and helped care for AIDS patients and other sick people. Not to mention churches like The Riverside Church in Manhattan which are non-denominational but very high-profile. And in NYC, Marble and Middle Collegiate Churches were very active and welcoming, even though they're officially Reformed Church of America congregations, which means Dutch Calvinist. Not to mention the Jesuit parishes all over America who quietly defied the wishes of the bishops and hosted the gay Catholic group Dignity.

Hell (ahem), the Lutheran church the next avenue down from my apartment has -- on the big sign on its front lawn, the one that identifies the place --

Trinity Lutheran Church
All Are Welcome
with the rainbow flag, trans flag, and bi flag on the bottom row.​

The people at those churches welcoming LGBT people and caring for the sick ones didn't trumpet it -- they were too busy doing the work itself -- but if you talked to them about it, they knew very well that they were following the actual teachings of Jesus of Nazareth far more faithfully than the Evangelical and fundamentalist churches fighting the culture wars.

 

[NotHardUp1]

my sense is that this post may trigger some hot buttons. Bring it on. LOL

No. You conflated Fundamentalism with Christianity, but I already addressed that. There certainly are those in that strain who often mention Hell. I attended a protest here a few weeks ago, and there indeed was a Westboro-type hater and his wife tradiing turns at a megaphone, pronouncing damnation on the entire group of us on our side of the street.

I haven't bothered to look it up, but there are likely more than 100 Churches of Christ denomination in Huntsville, and Hell is very much their stock and trade. But, there are also several Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Disciples here.

And, posting here on JUB a pro-religious message isn't about scoring points or getting even with detractors of religion. JUB is unashamedly anti-religious and encourages bigotry with the anti-religious "humor" thread and the like. It just promotes a distorted image of gays as overwhelmingly anti-religious, whereas it is much more likely that gays are merely like the majority of heteros, but the loudest are the ones who get the mic.

The demographics of Christianity in America have shifted substantially in the 20th century. Mainline Protestant denominations are in decline and the vast majority of adherents are now either Roman Catholics or non-denominational Pentecostalists. The former are struggling with the never-ending sex-abuse scandals and internicene fighting between Vatican II and traditionalists, and the latter are largely self-defeated cultural warriors who have given up the Gospel for reactionary politics to register their resentment at losing the dominant ground on abortion, LGBT rights, taxation, greed, education, feminism, and now the environment. The latter increasingly seek out megachurches where their total population shrinkage will be masked by the large assemblies, so they can tell themselves they are not losing the generational battle. They support smear campaigns promoting that Biden is a pedophile and that there is a secret cabal protecting pedophiles institutionally. It is the politics of desperation, as they must go to the most extreme accusations in order to mentally justify allying with an obvious non-Christian amoral man like Trump or Tucker Carlson. Unless their propagandists can sell those lies, the Christian right cannot justify voting for the lesser of two evils. That, and they were tired of losing.

 

[Tantric-Master]

Fair enough. But did you know that all of these good deeds can be performed without being directed by the church or under the threat of eternal damnation?

That's exactly one of the points I was trying to make in my post. Do we really need a church and "God" to tell us not to kill or steal or lie or bear false witness against our neighbor or to do good deeds (as you duly noted) ... under the threat of eternal damnation?

Excellent post.

 

[Tantric-Master]

What's more, it's my understanding that a lot of these "good deeds" are mandatory in order to qualify for tax exempt status.

That's a great point.

I'm not sure if you are aware of the fact that blacks were discriminated against by the Mormon "prophets" because they allegedly bore the "mark of Cain" (who reportedly killed Abel in the Biblical story). Brigham Young explicitly stated that interracial married couples should be put to death.

In 1978 (as immortalized in the Broadway show Book of Mormon), blacks were finally treated as equals in the Mormon Church and the discrimination ended.

I discussed the reason for this with a Mormon friend who openly conceded that there were some severe problems with the Mormon Church and their "prophets". What exactly caused the change in heart in the Mormon hierarchy at that time.

There was one story that, during the civil rights movement of the 1960s and 1970s, the Mormon Church was being labeled as a racist organization and was being threatened with the LOSS OF TAX EXEMPT STATUS. There was another story that Brigham Young University was threatened with a ban from NCAA athletics unless they changed their attitude towards black people. Both stories essentially indicated that MORMON FINANCES (MONEY) was being threatened. Then, suddenly and suspiciously, the living Mormon "Prophet" of that time declared that "God" had changed his mind about black people and the discrimination ended.

When revenues of the churches are threatened, their "deeply held religious beliefs" suddenly change dramatically.

 

[Tantric-Master]

Leave aside the threat of eternal damnation (which, as @NotHardUp1 said, is touched on rarely or not at all by most mainstream Protestant churches anymore -- it wasn't even touched on much when I was growing up in a Presbyterian church in the late '60s and '70s -- and never comes up when I go to a Catholic or Episcopal service for the music).

Yes, people can do good deeds outside of churches, and many do. But if I look around and count up everything I see around me, small-scale as well as large-scale, I see an awful lot more of actual good works (soup kitchens and food pantries, for instance) done by groups affiliated with churches/synagogues/mosques/etc. than not affiliated with them. And rare indeed is the charity hospital that wasn't started by some religious organization.

As you pointed out, "the threat of eternal damnation is touched on rarely or not at all by most mainstream Protestant churches ANYMORE" and "ANYMORE" is the key word there. Perhaps that is because there are very valid reasons why young people no longer believe in "eternal damnation" and are no longer drawn to churches that preach "eternal damnation". Hence, it is no longer preached because these ministers would lose the bulk of their congregations ... and the accompanying revenue. As I've said before, "deeply held religious beliefs" can change very quickly when the sources of revenue are threatened.

Your second point about charitable actions performed by churches has been a subject of interest for me for some time. Having traveled extensively (almost 50 countries), I've discovered a lot of interesting information about the church groups who proselytize abroad. Yes, they offer food and material benefits .... generally AFTER their church service to those who have attended. Yes, they provide jobs and a better standard of living ... to those who have converted to their religion. For those who attend services and especially for those who convert, there are tremendous benefits. People often convert for the benefits involved. It's an interesting form of bribery. Given those circumstances, I too might be convinced easily to say "I believe". LOL

As for the altruistic nature of such "charities", take a look at the administrative costs and, quite often, much of the monies received by these non-profit charities go to salaries and benefits for the owners and management.... while pulling in idealistic youngsters who are sincere initially but eventually get jaded by the greed/guile of the leadership. It happens in social services as well as I learned very well after my corporate career when I was a supervisor for a relatively brief period in Adult Protective Services and Child Preventive Services. The "religious" people don't seem to be much different despite the stated outward motivation being "for God".

 

[Tantric-Master]

No. You conflated Fundamentalism with Christianity, but I already addressed that. There certainly are those in that strain who often mention Hell. I attended a protest here a few weeks ago, and there indeed was a Westboro-type hater and his wife tradiing turns at a megaphone, pronouncing damnation on the entire group of us on our side of the street.

I haven't bothered to look it up, but there are likely more than 100 Churches of Christ denomination in Huntsville, and Hell is very much their stock and trade. But, there are also several Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Disciples here.

And, posting here on JUB a pro-religious message isn't about scoring points or getting even with detractors of religion. JUB is unashamedly anti-religious and encourages bigotry with the anti-religious "humor" thread and the like. It just promotes a distorted image of gays as overwhelmingly anti-religious, whereas it is much more likely that gays are merely like the majority of heteros, but the loudest are the ones who get the mic.

The demographics of Christianity in America have shifted substantially in the 20th century. Mainline Protestant denominations are in decline and the vast majority of adherents are now either Roman Catholics or non-denominational Pentecostalists. The former are struggling with the never-ending sex-abuse scandals and internicene fighting between Vatican II and traditionalists, and the latter are largely self-defeated cultural warriors who have given up the Gospel for reactionary politics to register their resentment at losing the dominant ground on abortion, LGBT rights, taxation, greed, education, feminism, and now the environment. The latter increasingly seek out megachurches where their total population shrinkage will be masked by the large assemblies, so they can tell themselves they are not losing the generational battle. They support smear campaigns promoting that Biden is a pedophile and that there is a secret cabal protecting pedophiles institutionally. It is the politics of desperation, as they must go to the most extreme accusations in order to mentally justify allying with an obvious non-Christian amoral man like Trump or Tucker Carlson. Unless their propagandists can sell those lies, the Christian right cannot justify voting for the lesser of two evils. That, and they were tired of losing.

Your posts are interesting because you seem very well educated and informed on a wide range of subjects.

You note that "JUB is unashamedly anti-religious and encourages bigotry with the anti-religious humor thread and the like". Does that actually surprise you on what is primarily a gay website? The "religious" people of the book are almost universally anti-gay ... though this is changing significantly in a more positive accepting loving direction as the influence of the churches fortunately declines (as you duly noted) and there is an awakening of kindness and acceptance and intelligence. Even nowadays, however, a simple act such as baking a wedding cake for a gay couple is so offensive to certain "religious" people that they fight it in court up to the Supreme Court.

FYI, during the 1980s and 1990s while I was in corporate management, I spent much of my free time doing home visits and supporting people who were dying of AIDS in the horrific NYC epidemic. At that time, we didn't even know if it was safe to shake hands, breathe the same air, or be in the same room with the dying ... most of whom were young homosexual guys. While I was spending time doing whatever I could to help and comfort these dying young people, what were the "religious" people doing? First of all, I recall clearly that they were calling this the "gay man's disease" and the justice of God ... while at the same time obstructing the search for any kind of treatment or cure. It was only when the so-called "good people", the "religious people", were infected (blood transfusions, whatever) that they finally joined the gay community in trying to address the illness.

While I was doing everything I could do to comfort and help these dying young people, the "holier-than-thou" "religious" people were probably going about their regular church social activities that you described in one of your previous posts... while simultaneously singing "God is Love" and "Love your neighbor" and "Hallelujah". That left a lasting impression on me as I watched many young people dying while trying to reassure them that they were not sinners doomed to eternal damnation as described in the hellish scriptures preached by the "religious" ones. As you also pointed out and we now know as fact, there was simultaneously a huge sexual abuse pedophilia issue in the Catholic church but also in other churches and religious organizations as well among the "holier than thou" population.

Are you really shocked that a gay web site would be so "unashamedly anti-religious"? While there are admittedly some good aspects of religion, there are most assuredly a lot of problems with people who can't do much more than quote a book that has been the source of so much discrimination and violence directed against the gay population. The behaviors of the "religious" people during the AIDS epidemic is understandable (based on the teachings and rhetoric of their ministers) but nonetheless inexcusable in my opinion.

 

[Tantric-Master]

Too much focus on what comes after instead of what comes now.

Since this seems to be a predominantly Christian-oriented site, I will use one quote attributed to Jesus which I think he actually may have said.

"The kingdom of God is here NOW."

This is a very profound point which many Christians seem to have completely misinterpreted. Ultimately, there is no death and hence no "after life" in that context ... just the One Life in which all participate in an awesome almost dream-like manner.... a veritable play of consciousness.

I got my first glimpse of that during my near death experience many years ago when I realized that everything was interconnected when seen from a different vantage point and that there is no death. One then looks upon time and space differently, as scientists are also pointing out.

 

[Tantric-Master]

@NotHardUp1 wasn't talking about Evangelical and fundamentalist Christian churches when he talked about LGBT support groups, and I expect he thought that was obvious enough that it didn't need to be stated. You may not be old enough to remember the 1980s well, but as the AIDS crisis got serious and LGBT people were getting major backlash, there were countless individual Episcopalian, United Church of Christ, Quaker, Unitarian (granted, not technically Christian), and even some Lutheran and Methodist churches (and Reform Jewish synagogues, too) who made a point of welcoming gay people, started support groups, and helped care for AIDS patients and other sick people. Not to mention churches like The Riverside Church in Manhattan which are non-denominational but very high-profile. And in NYC, Marble and Middle Collegiate Churches were very active and welcoming, even though they're officially Reformed Church of America congregations, which means Dutch Calvinist. Not to mention the Jesuit parishes all over America who quietly defied the wishes of the bishops and hosted the gay Catholic group Dignity.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am very aware of the AIDS crisis in NYC in the 1980s and 1990s as I did extensive work primarily with the Jesuits but later also with Marble Collegiate Church and the Quakers in volunteering for home/hospital visits to those who were dying of AIDS. I even accompanied a dying kid to reunite him with his family in Garr, Kansas (of all places). That became my primary non-work activity in my free time and I devoted much of my time and finances to that humanitarian cause.

There are indeed exceptions to every rule, as you duly noted, but the vast majority of churches were NOT supportive of the gay community during the AIDS crisis. I remember that "major backlash", which you yourself mentioned, very well. To say otherwise would not be true as per my recollection and that of those who were similarly immersed in helping those who were dying of AIDS at that time.

 

[Tantric-Master]

If you don't believe that people have to be taught not to steal, bear false witness, or commit adultery, go spend some time at Al-Anon or ACoA meetings with people who were brought up by alcoholics or addicts and weren't taught those things as children. They had to learn them as teens or adults, in lessons that were usually very painful.

In my many years of doing volunteer work as well as during a few years' stint in social services as a Supervisor in both Adult Protective Services and Child Preventive Services, I became very aware of Al-Anon, Narcotics Anonymous, Sex Addicts Anonymous, and the related sister-organizations. I have accompanied members to many of those very worthwhile meetings in both capacities and even ran meditation groups somewhat frequently at one time at various meetings. (Meditation, as you probably know, is the 11th step of the 12 step program and I am a long-term meditator who has practiced under sages from the various wisdom traditions throughout the world. In addition, I wrote the introduction to the meditation book of one of the revered sages of India. I also used to host free weekly meditation groups at my home for years where we discussed AND PRACTICED various meditation techniques.) Al-Anon and its sister organizations are probably among the best for addressing addictions in my opinion.

Addicts (whether the addiction be alcohol, drugs, sex, gambling, or whatever) constitute a very very difficult population. In one continuing education class for licensed mental health professionals, it was stated that the recidivism rate for addicts is 95% (which is a very horrible failure rate for professional treatment). My favorite success story about addictions was when I met a young heroin addict who had been disinherited from his wealthy family (the Grand Dukes of Russia) for literally going through over a million dollars on drugs. We ran into each other quite casually as he approached me while I was sitting in the lotus position at Washington Square Park before going to my postgraduate course at NYU in clinical psychology social work. To cut a long story short, we discussed meditation for months before he suddenly disappeared. I was worried about him but there was no way to contact him. About three months later, he appeared at our regular spot looking absolutely amazing. He then said that he had gone "cold turkey" ALONE on the grounds of the Russian Orthodox Monastery upstate for three days. Yes. Three Days. (I brought the subject up in class and they said that 3-4 days was the minimum for getting off a drug like heroin and dealing with withdrawal ... but obviously it was not recommended to do that "cold turkey".) In any case, that's what he said he did. Only then did he introduce himself to the monks and tell his story after which he was allowed to stay there for a couple of months. At that point, the monks re-introduced him to his family and vouched for him. He said that the urges still came at times when stressed, but that he basically dealt with his stress through meditation at that point instead of reverting to drugs. He vowed never to go back to drugs again and he kept that vow for a few years until we lost contact. I am very familiar with morality issues related to alcohol and other addictions.

You are correct that struggling Al-Anon members who were brought up by alcoholics/addicts do need to be taught such things as not to steal , not to bear false witness, not to commit adultery, etc. However, you are talking about a very disturbed, troubled population. That is certainly not the norm in our society. In your post, you mentioned that there were certain churches that did help gays during the AIDS crisis but I can assure you that was not the norm. Now, you cite another exception about addicts/alcoholics needing to be taught basic morality. Once again, the cases you mention are not the norm.

As I mentioned previously, there are exceptions to every rule and you seem to dwell on the exceptions ... which is good in a way ... but it does not present an accurate picture of the situation being discussed. Nonetheless, your points are quite valid ...but on a very limited basis.

P.S. Sexual addictions are also quite interesting and tantric practices were actually quite effective in addressing sexual CRAVING which is the driving force behind that addiction. As Buddhist meditations point out, it is the CRAVING that starts in the mind that triggers many many problems.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

You are correct that struggling Al-Anon members who were brought up by alcoholics/addicts do need to be taught such things as not to steal , not to bear false witness, not to commit adultery, etc. However, you are talking about a very disturbed, troubled population. That is certainly not the norm in our society.

You skated right past my point. Those people need to be taught those things as adults because what is the norm in our society is to teach people those things when they are young children. They are not things people figure out for themselves.

And no, JUB is not a predominantly Christian-oriented site. Yes, a large majority of its members come from cultures that are or were Christian, but if it were a predominantly Christian-oriented site, a thread called "Funny anti-religious Internet pics" would not exist, let alone have 443 pages. And that's fine. It's just that there are a few Jubbers who tend to fight back against the frequently-made statement that religion is the source of nothing good, only evil of one sort or another.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Your posts are interesting because you seem very well educated and informed on a wide range of subjects.

Thank you. I don't get many compliments at my age. I'm interested in most everything, so I still try to read about many topics. I like your posts, too. You bring new dimensions to the Hot Topics front page, and that's welcome.

You note that "JUB is unashamedly anti-religious and encourages bigotry with the anti-religious humor thread and the like". Does that actually surprise you on what is primarily a gay website?

No. People like simplifications. It's literally the backbone of totalitarian states. Hitler reduced his opposition to 2-dimensional types, and enlisted millions to join him in trying to purge the world of those he thought were sinners. Gays have been groomed by the few to do the same when it comes to religion. First, we're falsely told repeatedly that all homophobia is a product of religion. It is not. Religion is the instrument of the society, expressing mores with the sanction of God. The mores already were homophobic. You see it the world over in societies that do not have a religious taboo against gays, but still force them to be quiet about it, if not actively try to kill them.

And, in America, we hear that Christianity is the worst of all religions, because it is the devil "we know" as an oppressed minority. We give a pass culturally to Buddhists, Hindu, Shintoism, and naturist religions because we basically know so little about them, and which countries have committed whatever genocides or persecutions in contradiction of their espoused religious beliefs.

As for objecting to the bigotry on JUB, no apologies for calling it out. We have no credibility when complaining of mistreatment of gays when we openly advocate hating others in whatever name. We want a place in this world for us, but telling ourselves or others that we cannot find a way to accept 85% of the planet that is religious is a self-evident fail.

The "religious" people of the book are almost universally anti-gay ... though this is changing significantly in a more positive accepting loving direction as the influence of the churches fortunately declines (as you duly noted) and there is an awakening of kindness and acceptance and intelligence. Even nowadays, however, a simple act such as baking a wedding cake for a gay couple is so offensive to certain "religious" people that they fight it in court up to the Supreme Court.

Selecting WHICH churches you count as representing Christianity doesn't change the fact that LGBT supportive denominations are significant voices in the acceptance of gays that has grown in the larger culture.

Suggesting they (we) have not played a meaningful role in effecting progress is like saying the Quakers didn't fight slavery as a part of their religious beliefs.

Your are positing that because progressive Christians are the minority of the larger group, they can be dismissed en masse and lumped in with the oppressors. How is that any different than the heteros arguing that gays are such a small minority, we don't have to acknowledge them or give them their due?

 

[Tantric-Master]

You skated right past my point. Those people need to be taught those things as adults because what is the norm in our society is to teach people those things when they are young children. They are not things people figure out for themselves.

And no, JUB is not a predominantly Christian-oriented site. Yes, a large majority of its members come from cultures that are or were Christian, but if it were a predominantly Christian-oriented site, a thread called "Funny anti-religious Internet pics" would not exist, let alone have 443 pages. And that's fine. It's just that there are a few Jubbers who tend to fight back against the frequently-made statement that religion is the source of nothing good, only evil of one sort or another.

Perhaps I did skate by your point, but I most assuredly did understand it. I'm just not particularly interested in getting into very basic psychosocial development with "average" parenting....or pathological psychosocial development with alcoholic or otherwise addicted parents. However, I could elaborate further if I wanted to do so since I do have a clinical psychology postgraduate social work degree in addition to my corporate management background.

 

[Tantric-Master]

First, we're falsely told repeatedly that all homophobia is a product of religion. It is not. Religion is the instrument of the society, expressing mores with the sanction of God. The mores already were homophobic. You see it the world over in societies that do not have a religious taboo against gays, but still force them to be quiet about it, if not actively try to kill them.

That is an excellent point you just raised. Most people are not aware that Genghis Khan's Code of Laws (#48) was a condemnation of homosexuality with a penalty of death. There was no religious basis for that particular law. Rather, it is attributed to the fact that the Khan wanted the Mongolian peoples to multiply as in the "hordes" and homosexual obviously does not accomplish this.

There is a lot of speculation that the Jewish condemnation of homosexuality (Leviticus) was based on the same reasoning. Israel was a very small country surrounded by some very powerful entities (Egypt , Babylonia, Assyria, and the Hittite Empire). They needed numbers to survive and thus had to "be fruitful and multiply". However, as you indicated, this was promulgated to the people "with the sanction of God".

 

[Tantric-Master]

Selecting WHICH churches you count as representing Christianity doesn't change the fact that LGBT supportive denominations are significant voices in the acceptance of gays that has grown in the larger culture.

Suggesting they (we) have not played a meaningful role in effecting progress is like saying the Quakers didn't fight slavery as a part of their religious beliefs.

Your are positing that because progressive Christians are the minority of the larger group, they can be dismissed en masse and lumped in with the oppressors. How is that any different than the heteros arguing that gays are such a small minority, we don't have to acknowledge them or give them their due?

In agreement with you, I did previously acknowledge that there are indeed now an increasing number of churches that are becoming more and more accepting of homosexuality.

In a previous post, I explicitly mentioned the Mormons who were actively fighting against legalizing same-sex partnerships/marriages when the legislation was being considered in California. You may recall that there was widespread opposition within the Mormon Church itself with thousands publicly renouncing their membership in the church right outside the Utah Temple rather than shun their homosexual loved ones. The Mormon Church reluctantly modified its anti-gay position rather than lose members and be branded a homophobic organization. (This was similar to the church's change in position regarding blacks in 1978 and that too seem to be related to membership/financial concerns.) I could cite other examples in other churches, but this is an easy well-documented church case to use as an example. (Note that I had friends within the Mormon community so I was able to watch this particular case very closely and there was very vocal opposition to the church's anti-gay position even in the local churches here in NYC at that time. The change was somewhat forced onto the church.)

As you indicated, one cannot dismiss this GLBT-accepting churches as they exert a moderating influence on the homophobic churches.

 

[Tantric-Master]

And, in America, we hear that Christianity is the worst of all religions, because it is the devil "we know" as an oppressed minority. We give a pass culturally to Buddhists, Hindu, Shintoism, and naturist religions because we basically know so little about them, and which countries have committed whatever genocides or persecutions in contradiction of their espoused religious beliefs.

Having investigated many of the wisdom traditions throughout the world, it seems appropriate to mention the following.

Regarding Buddhism, the Dalai Lama has come out in support of same-sex marriages/partnerships. His reasoning is that, since it's consensual and no one is harmed, it should be all right. Note that, as a Buddhist, he doesn't invoke "with the sanction of God".

There is a Hindu story regarding the author Christopher Isherwood and his guru, Swami Premananda, who was a direct disciple of the revered Ramakrishna. Isherwood was asked by his guru to move into the ashram but, before doing so, he felt the need to tell his guru that he had a male lover. Premananda's response was: "If you see in your lover the young Lord Krishna, that will lea you to love and that will lead you to Godhead. I have no problem with it." Isherwood then moved into the ashram and eventually wrote a book which I would highly recommend, "Ramakrishna and his Disciples".

My own teacher, a mahamandeshwara in the orders of Shankara (comparable to a cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church) held the same position in reference to homosexuality.

It's the "people of the book" (the Abrahamic religions) that seem to have the biggest obsession with sex and homosexuality. LOL