Do you know how to eat with Chopsticks?

[Anders123]

zoltanspawn; I can understand your frustration, but each individual is entitled to view the world in their own way. The fact that you can so keenly appreciate various cultural dining experiences and their nuances is a gift; appreciate it, nourish it - but if you attempt force your rather unique perceptions onto every person who sees things differently, you're only going to end up bitter and resentful.

I've previously spoken of my exorbitant adoration of rain on JUB, and I received comments from people joking and laughing about my quixotic over-romanticism. What I perceive as captivating and beautiful, others may simply regard as troublesome or annoying - and that's perfectly okay.

I think that in situations such as this, the 'live and let live' mentality is perfectly felicitous. It's certainly not necessary for the discussion to diminish into vitriolic incivility. Understanding and/or appreciating our differing opinions should be paramount, not degrading them.

Y'know - peace, love and all that.

 

[Ganoderma]

I have never visited China, or Africa, or even been outside the United States. (...) You might find this interesting. (...) Americans don’t travel overseas as much as Brits, Dutch, Germans, Canadians or Scandinavians. There are some good reasons for this (big country, short vacation time) and bad ones (fear and ignorance). (....). Ganoderma, in my case, I simply cannot afford to travel to China. If I were, I most certainly would learn how to use chopsticks. (....).

hi JohannBessler,

Thanks for this message, and please excuse me for some delay in giving you an answer. You also wrote:

Have you ever been to Benihana, or Ichiban's? They make an elaborate display of cooking. I love the food they serve there, but doggone it I get impatient with the show. I just want to eat! (Give me the food, and quit the fancy stuff.) (...). In a similar fashion, I get impatient at upper-class diners, places that serve Steak Diane and finish with an Orange Souffle. While I do indeed love the food, I get impatient waiting three hours from finish to start.

I had no idea about Benihana, or Ichiban's, but Google can find alot, eg http://www.benihana.com/ and http://www.ichiban.ca/ So now I know where you are talking about. Excuse me very much, but I am not very much interested in why 'US citizens in general' don't travel alot to other countries.

I am, however, curious to know why you don't do this. You mention that you don't have enough money for this. Are you aware that China, or Indonesia (and many other Asian countries as well, including eg India with a nice cuisine) are much cheaper then the US?

And how comes that you, a partnered gay with a hidden blog, and likely without kids, can effort to go to 'upper class dinners' (I have no idea what that will cost, as I have no idea what you mean by this kind of dinners), and to restaurants like Benihana, or Ichiban's, but have no money to travel to another country, even not to Mexico.

I assume that a return ticket to Mexico is not too expensive, and Mexico is as well a country where alot of things are much less expensive then in the US.

Thanks in advance for a reply.

 

[MoltenRock III]

Ichibans and Benihana are chain restaurants in the US. I wouldn't quite call them ghastly, but for what you get for the prices you pay, it certainly is an experience to be missed.

 

[MoltenRock III]

No. I am not snobbish. I care about something. I am informed about its issues.

I'm interested in increasing other's pleasure at the table.

Utensils are a part of the table...their practicality, their effect. They contribute directly to an increase or decrease in delight and efficiency.

I work rather tirelessly for the pleasure of common people with formica countertops.

You would do well to add a distinction between arrogance and ardor to your arsenal of asinine assumptions.

Simplicity with a radical pursuit of quality and freshness is the foundation for so much of Asian cuisine. A bento box lunch is a perfect example of this ideal. There is far more to food, as you've noted, than simply shoveling some greasy grey mass down ones throat.

 

[lukylok]

I'm fairly certain that the use of forks and spoons is a custom as old, if not older, than using chopsticks.

And yes, I know how to use them.

How wrong can you be ? The fork was invented in the 17th century. First mention is at the table of Louis XIV.
Chopsticks have neen used long before BC.

 

[MoltenRock III]

^I thought the food was delicious, MoltenRock, but I get impatient with the long, drawn-out show.

As I said before, I'd really rather them give me the food so I can enjoy it.

I find their "show" annoying. My point was, you could find as good if not better, at a mom and pop place for half the price. Quality food doesn't have to be expensive.

I know of several places in Tokyo (one of the most expensive cities in the world) where you can get great food for under $7 to $10 for lunch / dinner.

As far as travel for the greater populace, travel can be cheaper than staying at home. Additionally, for the average American to say it's too expensive, although the US has higher wages than nearly all of their better traveled, western counterparts, rings hollow.

 

[Kulindahr]

And you don't need to go to a restaurant or buy a lacquered set to experience them. I'm sure a serviceable set could even be whittled from wood growing at the side of the road if one had the curiosity and the time, but not the money.

I've done that. Five days backpacking into the wilderness, the guy whose turn it was to do dinner brought out Chinese. Another guy asked if he'd brought chopsticks -- the goof had brought his own, and that was it. I whittled like two dozen to get ten good ones.

BTW, using chopsticks whittled from freshly cut cedar adds an interesting spice to the flavor.

No. I am not snobbish. I care about something. I am informed about its issues.

I'm interested in increasing other's pleasure at the table.

Utensils are a part of the table...their practicality, their effect. They contribute directly to an increase or decrease in delight and efficiency.

I work rather tirelessly for the pleasure of common people with formica countertops.

You would do well to add a distinction between arrogance and ardor to your arsenal of asinine assumptions.

No, you're snobbish. If you can say "Fuck off" to someone who disagrees with your ideas, you're snobbish. And resorting to personal attacks is another sign of snobbishness. And you accuse people who are just reading your words and what they say of making assumptions -- more arrogance. Your presentation here is that of someone with some vision you pooh-pooh others for not sharing when you haven't even explained it -- like you're too good to explain it to lowly others.

I can tell you're talking in a rather mystical sense here. A table is a table, utensils are utensils, food is food. You're glomming them together in some pseudo-spiritual mishmash.

When you mean the "setting", or "presentation", or perhaps "atmosphere", use those words. "Table" means a solid surface used to sit things on -- an object. If you mean something else, use a word that says so.

If "presentation" is what you mean, I agree. One of the most delightful eating experiences I've ever had was where due to poor planning and assumptions made, eight of us ended up camping without utensils. We had to fashion everything for cooking and eating from what was around us, or improvise from what we had.

Did you know it's possible to do stir-fry in a frisbee?

We ended up with trenchers fashioned from the bark of noble fir, and two-pronged "woodware" forks.... along with chopsticks for the salad. The experience of eating what most people would have said couldn't be cooked with what we had, using utensils we'd made ourselves, was a delight.

 

[Kulindahr]

Hi MoltenRock III,

Thanks for this posting. I agree with you as well. People need to travel more, especially white Americans who clearly have no idea what's going on in the rest of the world. I tend to expand this view to groups of white people living in Europe.

In particular gay males will have more opportunities to make such visits.

Most gay males have no childeren, so don't need to spend huge amounts of money to raise their childeren. In stead, they can use this money for travelling to other countries.

So quite a few gays cannot use the 'excuse' that they don't have enough money to effort such a trip. That means they must have another argument, why they don't wanna travel to let say any of the Arab countries, SE Asia and / or sub Sahara Africa.

Please go on with your efforts to tell your friends and people over here that they need to travel more and get to get those experiences.

Experience how Chinese people eat (=shovelling rice inside their mouth with chopsticks), and how they cope with food, is just one of those nice experiences. You are totally right, such Chinese people stare to me (and I can 'feel' that they talk about me), and are very curious how I will manage to eat their food with chopsticks.

As a side note, I do have met quite a few US citizens in a variety of non-western countries, who had choosen to visit these countries because they were curious to know more about the world outside the US.

Best wishes & good luck.

Anyone here who doesn't care to visit other countries, please send money -- I'd love to. I've always wanted to visit every country in the Western Hemisphere.

 

[Asenath]

I love to try new things - whether it's learning to eat with chopsticks, or going to a restaurant where the only utensil is the yummy, tangy flatbread, or this molecular gastronomy place my aunt took me to where the food was half science experiment & half puzzle.

Food should be fun. Trying new things is fun. Put me down as #teamchopsticks.

 

[zoltanspawn]

^You always word things so beautifully, Anders. I envy that gift.

@Zoltenspawn: I think the thing is, you're trying to decide for us. That's something religious people try to do all the time, and is one reason they are resented so much.

Johann, I couldn't decide for you if I wanted to. Which I don't.

But I will argue--even angrily if I have to--for my position. I hope I haven't made you resent me.

I'm trying to lay out the reasons for my opinion. I freely admit--I believe it's a better opinion than yours. I don't expect you to simply accept my position without reason. I do want you to really consider the reasons I am offering.

Remember, at the end of the day, my goal for you and everyone is to experience more pleasure, not less.

 

[zoltanspawn]

zoltanspawn; I can understand your frustration, but each individual is entitled to view the world in their own way. The fact that you can so keenly appreciate various cultural dining experiences and their nuances is a gift; appreciate it, nourish it - but if you attempt force your rather unique perceptions onto every person who sees things differently, you're only going to end up bitter and resentful.

I've previously spoken of my exorbitant adoration of rain on JUB, and I received comments from people joking and laughing about my quixotic over-romanticism. What I perceive as captivating and beautiful, others may simply regard as troublesome or annoying - and that's perfectly okay.

I think that in situations such as this, the 'live and let live' mentality is perfectly felicitous. It's certainly not necessary for the discussion to diminish into vitriolic incivility. Understanding and/or appreciating our differing opinions should be paramount, not degrading them.

Y'know - peace, love and all that.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Anders.

I guess I felt that my opinion was incivilly degraded first.

It's just an emoticon, Z.

Were I a real gentlemen I would have risen above the bait.

Eventually I will be able to offer a less heated reply to Kulindahr. It may have to suffer a few drafts, though.

I do disagree with you a bit, though. I don't think my perceptions are rather unique; I think they are correct. If I remove the vitriol from my argument, I hope you will consider my reasons.

Thanks, again.

 

[Telstra]

Every topic should have a song right?
This song is perfect for this thread:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUDsXdgw9Dw&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLA5F0F0AF2918BAB8[/ame]

 

[Telstra]

<chuckle>I just told my OH about this thread.

It seems that, for some people there really IS a snob factor in learning the chopsticks.

He told me that, in the international jet-set crowd, there was a certain cachet to learning how to use chopsticks. When the student was good enough, he was given a personalized set of chopsticks, made with ivory, with his name written in Chinese on them.

These chopsticks were given to him in a velvet case, and it was these chopsticks that he was expected to use whenever he was taken to an Asian restaurant.

He says it was quite the thing to do, if you were in "the in crowd".

So to some extent, I was right the first time.

Guys, all of this is OK, but why weren't you willing to tell us the truth?

Sometimes the truth is more interesting than fiction.

The truth about what?
Chopsticks are only suitable for some food.

It is certainly not suitable if you eat the whole roast chicken using chopsticks.

 

[MindBlast]

Some food is easier to eat with chopsticks. I'm sure eating nigiri sushi with a fork would be a bit of a disaster.

I'm Canadian with an Italian background but I learned to use chopsticks by the time I was 10. It seems really easy now.

 

[Telstra]

^ Not you, Telstra.

It makes perfect sense why you would use chopsticks.

I'm referring to the Americans and Europeans here who have chosen to learn the chopsticks, when they didn't have to.

I say that, in some of the cases, it was pure snob appeal.

No one was willing to admit the truth.

Don't you think it is fun to learn new things while enjoying the food ?

 

[zoltanspawn]

^ Not you, Telstra.

It makes perfect sense why you would use chopsticks.

I'm referring to the Americans and Europeans here who have chosen to learn the chopsticks, when they didn't have to.

I say that, in some of the cases, it was pure snob appeal.

No one was willing to admit the truth.

Sometimes it's the truth, Johann. I have no problem agreeing with that.

It doesn't contradict any of the arguments I've put forth.

 

[Asenath]

^ Not you, Telstra.

It makes perfect sense why you would use chopsticks.

I'm referring to the Americans and Europeans here who have chosen to learn the chopsticks, when they didn't have to.

I say that, in some of the cases, it was pure snob appeal.

No one was willing to admit the truth.

God forbid people be respectful of the culture and not just run around shaking people down for their cuisine and inventions, like culinary Imperialists. . .

 

[MoltenRock III]

<chuckle>I just told my OH about this thread.

It seems that, for some people there really IS a snob factor in learning the chopsticks.

He told me that, in the international jet-set crowd, there was a certain cachet to learning how to use chopsticks. When the student was good enough, he was given a personalized set of chopsticks, made with ivory, with his name written in Chinese on

Sometimes the truth is more interesting than fiction.

LMAO! Urban legend much?

And you wonder why I called certain Americans incurious before?

Good grief, what utter tripe!

 

[Kulindahr]

^I thought the food was delicious, MoltenRock, but I get impatient with the long, drawn-out show.

As I said before, I'd really rather them give me the food so I can enjoy it.

LOL Yeah.

The only time I ever enjoyed the show of preparing food was at a pizza place, where they turned making the crust into an art, tossing, catching, twirling, and one guy even juggling the ones for the eight-inch pizzas. If you knew the night he was working, you could even catch a guy who applied olive oil while two others tossed crusts back and forth.

How wrong can you be ? The fork was invented in the 17th century. First mention is at the table of Louis XIV.
Chopsticks have neen used long before BC.

Sorry, but in my ancient near eastern language studies the fork was mentioned in both Egyptian and Hebrew prior to 1000 B.C. Mention of forks also abounds in Roman history.

The interesting thing is that most of those references are definitely to what we would call serving or carving forks -- apparently there were forks around for centuries before someone figured out they could be useful at the table....

 

[Kulindahr]

Don't you think it is fun to learn new things while enjoying the food ?

No. The new thing should be learned before eating, so you can enjoy the food instead of concentrating on getting it right.

My older brother refuses to go out for Chinese with anyone who doesn't know how to use chopsticks. To satisfy him, you have to be able to pull grapes off the stem and eat them, among other things. And once you get it right, he says you're ready for "real" chopsticks.

Yeah, that snob is the same one who said I'd destroyed the family when I came out.