Do You Require Your Significant Other to Be Out?

[slnattak]

Why is it a sign of low self-esteem or self-loathing just because you don't want to show public display of affections. I think it's actually the other way around. It's insecure to always need your relationship validated by an outside source.

That stuff needs to be special and private.

I'm weird. I actually think low self-esteem is attractive, and human and approachable... and so, I don't care if my dude is conflicted over his homosexuality. In fact, that would make him more attractive to me probably lol. I'm not saying it's right, but nobody is perfect- and all the guys I crushed on have been like that. Gay deep down inside but they hate it.

If a guy was like hyper-gay and bitchy and way too confident and loud, that's just a turn off- I tried to date gay guys like that and it's just off-putting , and they try to blame the whole thing on you. It's like they lack introspection. It's narcissistic and it's not real confidence. Supposedly I'm this big 'self loather' just cuz I'm quiet and shy and don't like to declare my gayness every 3 seconds. Whatever.

It's called projection. YOU are really the self loather when you treat me like that, not me.

 

[slnattak]

The proud types lack empathy for people I've notice. Being self-confident shouldn't mean that you stop feeling love for others. It's more important to love other people, not yourself. Although it's true you can't love other ppl until you like yourself in ways, don't hide behind that smoke screen.

I come from a very conservative family. they say they're liberal but in reality they're stuffy and uptight as all get out. I know that most of my family will have a HUGE time if I brought a boyfriend over. I just can't do that okay? It would be weird and nothing good would come out of it. It would be awkward as hell. All they care about is money and republican-ish things.

It doesn't mean I don't like the person. It just means, my family is weird and dysfunctional about stuff okay? I can't help where I came from. If the guy really liked me, he'd be empathetic and understanding of that.

It wouldn't be something that would make me grow emotionally. It would just be awkward. What would be the point? It's not that I myself am ASHAMED, it's that I know what they're like.

But if he was just a typical narcisisstic gay man and all he thought about was himself, and not the other person- then he would think that I was hurting him and get an attitude problem. Over which I would then say "See ya wouldn't wanna be ya." Or like Sarge told David in six feet under "do you have a deafness problem?" lol. I mean come on now. =/

Hopefully there are guys that understand where I'm coming from. A small town that makes anti-gay jokes constantly and everybody makes fun of it... you can't just be gay. And I tried just coming out and it doesn't work people looked down on me even more. The wisest course of action was to let them have their prejudices, and lead my own quiet life myself.

And you know I'm right. You can't make somebody not be homophobic by your presence. Sorry stuck up gay men, but you're not that powerful. You just aren't, so DEAL WITH IT (hehe) And it doesn't really make you feel any better to constantly admit your gayness, because 'me thinks doth is protesting too much.' The best thing to do is just come out, quietly to yourself. Coming out to others is simply pointless.

Okay I apologize if I got too mean but I'm obviously very sensitive about this, because almost everybody in my family did NOT accept me when I came out to them, and yes I did it in the most kindest way possible and followed all the 'rulebooks' of it. And they still hated it and disproved of it. Even my own mother. So I'm sorry if I'm mean, but you can't entirely blame me.

People are just homophobic assholes and I'm tired of being the 'good guy' to change their perspective about it. It's just draining and stupid and politically correct and dumb and pointless and too awkward and unnatural. And I'm tired of improving gay guys self-esteem always as if they're not strong or man enough to handle a little bullying. Whatever. The whole thing is a farce and I'm tired of it.

 

[FunFunk]

I chose the top option not because I expect him to be out to EVERYONE in his life, but I expect that whoever we should run into together (be it his friend, family, co-worker, boss) that I'm introduced as the guy whose sleeping with him (not insomuch words). If it's a relationship we're in, don't you dare introduce me as your friend.

If he's not out to everyone at work or to his extended family, because it hasn't come up one way or another, that's fine. But should the occasion arise, I want a guy whose got that substance to go that hard mile and say, "This is my boyfriend."

Good approach.

 

[FunFunk]

No, i think it's completely selfish to make your significant other be out just to date you. he may not be ready, and it's horrible to pressure someone into something that he isn't ready for. give him time to feel comfortable in his skin, and see things from his perspective - what if he has a strict family who are entirely against his sexual orientation?

i agree with gosgonue over the closet cases, i hate when gay men pretend and deny it.

I can understand to a point if the man in question still lives with his birth family and/or depends heavily on them why he may care about their views on his sexual orientation, especially if he's not legally an adult yet. But, if he knows his family will have such a stringent objection to his being gay, he should be working especially hard toward being able to live independently of them. Well, he should be doing that no matter what. There does come a time to leave the family nest. Besides, it can be argued that if the family truly loves him for what he is, they would not take any action that would harm him. In fact, their love would be unwavering no matter what his sexual orientation is. And if they chose, for instance, to ostracize him, it would be their decision and their loss, not his.

If you hate when gay men pretend and deny, then wouldn't you want your significant other to be out of the closet that much more? After all, the closet, by its very nature, is all about pretending and denying, whether or not those inside of it keep token women draped in their arms just for the sake of appearance. There's just no way around that.

 

[FunFunk]

I just feel that being gay is part of your identity. If he is still finding himself then he isnt ready for a relationship. It would end up in a rocky relationship. I came out for that sole reason, I didn't want to be putting pressure on the person im seeing. I didn't even know at the time that coming out will affect me drastically and make me happier and better.

That's a very good viewpoint; well said.

 

[FunFunk]

I think it's arrogant to place any expectations on how the other guy lives his life and relates to the other people around him. I'm not out to my friends and family, and who are you to tell me I should be? Who are you to come in and try to regulate this? If I took up with an 'out' guy, I would be perfectly willing to come into HIS world and play the part of his BF. If he wants to introduce me as his BF to his mother, friends and accepting old aunt, then I'd be happy to oblige him on how he relates to HIS circle. But he'd have no right to tell me how I should interact with my own mother. If I would rather attend my family's 4th of July barbecue solo, then he should respect that. Don't assume everyone congregates with their family and friends the same way you do, or that they should. They're the ones who have to deal with any fallout that may come with coming out, while you get to sit there spectating. How convenient for you. And if you push me to come out, and it's an unpleasant experience...goes who I'm going to wind up being angry at?

I don't know if you've ever had a serious relationship with anyone who was out of the closet, but remember that an essential part of being in any kind of devoted relationship is to share each other's lives and engage in social and other activities together. With that in mind, I think repeatedly excluding your loved one(s) from special or holiday gatherings so that you can spend them with people who would be disappointed if they learned who you really are would become a serious problem. I'm sure after a while, he would start to feel a bit like the "unwanted child" sometimes.

Personally, I think it's much more arrogant, insensitive and, above all, hurtful to be in a relationship with someone expecting to be able to deny or hide him whenever it is not comfortable or convenient for you just because other people who are homophobic happen to be present. It's like turning what should be one of the most significant relationships in your life into nothing more than a cheap, shameful, illicit affair when the moment's not right.

It's not about dictating how you should interact with your mother or anyone. It's just about letting them know who you really are and not pretending to be someone else. The only real reason your coming out to anyone would be unpleasant is if the person you're telling is homophobic and/or has their own unreasonable expectations about you. In other words, you would never be to blame for merely coming out. And your boyfriend or gay partner would certainly not be to blame so becoming angry at him would be to completely misdirect that anger. No, that anger should be directed squarely against those who disrespect you just for being gay, compelling you to disguise a significant part of your character every time you're in their presence. And, unfortunately, sometimes those people may be members of your family or friends.

 

[FunFunk]

The proud types lack empathy for people I've notice. Being self-confident shouldn't mean that you stop feeling love for others. It's more important to love other people, not yourself. Although it's true you can't love other ppl until you like yourself in ways, don't hide behind that smoke screen.

I come from a very conservative family. they say they're liberal but in reality they're stuffy and uptight as all get out. I know that most of my family will have a HUGE time if I brought a boyfriend over. I just can't do that okay? It would be weird and nothing good would come out of it. It would be awkward as hell. All they care about is money and republican-ish things.

It doesn't mean I don't like the person. It just means, my family is weird and dysfunctional about stuff okay? I can't help where I came from. If the guy really liked me, he'd be empathetic and understanding of that.

It wouldn't be something that would make me grow emotionally. It would just be awkward. What would be the point? It's not that I myself am ASHAMED, it's that I know what they're like.

But if he was just a typical narcisisstic gay man and all he thought about was himself, and not the other person- then he would think that I was hurting him and get an attitude problem. Over which I would then say "See ya wouldn't wanna be ya." Or like Sarge told David in six feet under "do you have a deafness problem?" lol. I mean come on now. =/

Hopefully there are guys that understand where I'm coming from. A small town that makes anti-gay jokes constantly and everybody makes fun of it... you can't just be gay. And I tried just coming out and it doesn't work people looked down on me even more. The wisest course of action was to let them have their prejudices, and lead my own quiet life myself.

And you know I'm right. You can't make somebody not be homophobic by your presence. Sorry stuck up gay men, but you're not that powerful. You just aren't, so DEAL WITH IT (hehe) And it doesn't really make you feel any better to constantly admit your gayness, because 'me thinks doth is protesting too much.' The best thing to do is just come out, quietly to yourself. Coming out to others is simply pointless.

Okay I apologize if I got too mean but I'm obviously very sensitive about this, because almost everybody in my family did NOT accept me when I came out to them, and yes I did it in the most kindest way possible and followed all the 'rulebooks' of it. And they still hated it and disproved of it. Even my own mother. So I'm sorry if I'm mean, but you can't entirely blame me.

People are just homophobic assholes and I'm tired of being the 'good guy' to change their perspective about it. It's just draining and stupid and politically correct and dumb and pointless and too awkward and unnatural. And I'm tired of improving gay guys self-esteem always as if they're not strong or man enough to handle a little bullying. Whatever. The whole thing is a farce and I'm tired of it.

Coming out is not about trying to convince others of your right to live or of the validity of your life. It's not about persuading others to change their way of thinking. It's just about being honest with people and not denying who you are or about the kinds of relationships that work for you. Again, if others don't like who you are, that's not your fault or your problem. That's their problem for being homophobic.

I just wonder about how much you like where you live, aside from the rampant homophobia. If the answer is that you don't -- and you do seem resigned but frustrated at the situation -- then maybe you should be looking to change where you live to a place that's much more accepting of gays -- and, by extension, much more accepting of you.

 

[Lex Domino]

I just have one question.

If your partner has a family who would disown him or "accept him" but not want to see his "lifestyle"(meaning you) then you'd never meet his family anyway.

Why should he give up his family for you and why would you want him to? It's easier said than done to say "Forget your mother and father for me.", and the fight against homophobes gets a lot more real when it's your own parents.

I'm 28, I'm not out to most of my family, only my sister knows. I basically just allow the rest of them to suspect and theorize(and they do). At one point my father was ready to disown me(not even completely knowing), but now he's already got a gay friend.

If I had come out a few years ago the situation would've been awful. My father told me flat out he was homophobic and the sight of two lesbians kissing in front of us(I was living in DC) was disgusting.

Now when I come out it probably won't be so bad. Both of my parents are a lot more accepting than they were 7 or 8 years ago.

If anyone tried to make me choose between them and my family I'd choose my family without thinking about it. Homophobic or not they made me, you didn't, and I won't lose them for anyone. I would rather have someone who could stick by me and tough it out than try to force me out to make themselves feel better. People who are still in the closet are the ones still dealing with the pain of homophobia and it's rather insensitive to take your freedom and rub it in someone's face, especially when that person is someone you're in a relationship with.

Just my two cents, this post isn't aimed at anyone, just the general topic.

 

[TX-Beau]

...Why should he give up his family for you and why would you want him to? It's easier said than done to say "Forget your mother and father for me.", and the fight against homophobes gets a lot more real when it's your own parents...

Come on, choices have consequences. Being in the closet is a choice, and it's a lie. NO ONE can force you to give up your family. NO ONE can force you to come out. If some guy pressures you to do either and you choose not to, you can. That’s a choice also.

But it’s still presumptuous to expect someone else to lie for you – and that’s what it comes down to. Everyone – including my homophobic Texas Baptist family knows I’m gay. Some of them don’t like it, some of them don’t care, but all of them know, and all of them ask questions about guys I bring around, just like they asked questions about the girls my straight brothers brought around. What am I supposed to do? Lie, tell them he’s a “roommate,” then watch them roll on the ground laughing? Hide his existence? What kind of position has his lie put me in? I did not make his choice to hide in the closet, which is why I will not make the choice to commit to him.

If the guy is in the closet, he can’t ever be around any of my family or friends, ‘cause they’ll immediately know – and I’m not giving up my family either. So what real part of my life can he be? I’m not going to lie to my mother, my friends, my brothers. He won’t tell the truth, he will call me telling the truth pushing him, so there you are.

Guys in the closet can stay there and that’s fine, until they start thinking they have some right to have other people respect their dishonesty. They have no right to the closet, it’s just an unfortunate place they find themselves in (that most of us have found ourselves in.) It’s not privacy, it’s not discretion, it’s just fear.

You want to be in the closet, fine, knock yourself out. I don’t care, but I’m not going to date you either, and that’s not because I have decided for you, it’s not because I have an agenda, it's not because you won't "give up your family," it's not because I'm hoping to get you to come out, it’s because you’ve decided that for yourself.

We don’t stay in the closet because of other people. There are plenty of out gay men with families - horrid and otherwise they won't give up. We stay in the closet because of fear, and that fear is only partially about the ignorance you face, the majority is all about yourself. That’s never changed, and guys only come out when they reconcile that in themselves – no matter who won’t date them, no matter how bigoted the relatives. No matter what justifications they bide their time with in the meantime.

No one can force that - but if they're willing, perhaps one of us can HELP with that, and that too can only happen if the closet case chooses for it to be so.

 

[Lex Domino]

Who said anything about lying?

Unless the guy in question lives with his family how exactly would you have to face them in the first place?

Most people move away from home. I personally live on the opposite coast than my family does.

How can we say "It gets better." and then shove "YOU'RE LIVING A LIE!!" down someone's throat for not being ready to come out yet?

You're calling people liars and talking about dishonesty as if it's gay men who are some sort of bad guys. Why put the blame on people who aren't willing to lose people they know and love due to homophobia?

All this just reads as really needy. You have to know every single person in your partner's life or you'll reject them? Even if said people don't want to know you in the first place?

Gay people aren't allowed to know or accept any homophobic people even if they happen to be family?

We must reject our family and hope everything works out with the guy we gave up our blood for? Really?

It's a lot easier to talk and type up words than it is to actually disown your own family or willingly be disowned by them.

Turning gay men into bad guys for not wanting to risk it all is shameful and selfish. Things like this are why so many gay people have been committing suicide for decades and you don't even see it.

People are not political tools. If you reject a gay person who's in the closet due to homophobia then you're just as bad as homophobes. Forcing your beliefs and restrictions on others is wrong.

If just being with the person you love isn't enough then maybe you don't deserve to have them in the first place.

 

[TX-Beau]

Oh spare me, the closet is a lie, people who live in it are lying. There's no getting around that. We all know why, most of us have been there.

Omission or commission the intent to deceive - as in pretending you're straight, is a lie.

And who cares about his family, he's lying to them too, I however won't lie to mine, and so, he can never be in my life in any meaningful way - that's MY choice, just like it's HIS choice to hide. Unless he's willing to meet my family and friends as the guy he actually is - that would be my GAY boyfriend, I'm not going to date him.

Needy is thinking that your closet has any kind of validity in my life. I'm sorry when guys find themselves there, I sympathize, and I well remember what it was like, which is why you won't find me making justifications and excuses for it.

And get over the jump to extremes. I don't have to either marry him or shun him, there are plenty of other options that don't require him to come out, or require me to lie for him, dating is just not going to be one of them.

 

[TX-Beau]

We must reject our family and hope everything works out with the guy we gave up our blood for? Really?

It's a lot easier to talk and type up words than it is to actually disown your own family or willingly be disowned by them.

Really? that whole bit about gay men demanding you give up your family came out of your head not mine. I didn't even bring up the other guy's family.

Every gay man who came out faced that risk of being disowned and rejected - actually faced it, you haven't, and you want to wave the chance we took around like we're the ones who don't understand it, but sugar, you don't understand it, you haven't been through it, you're still afraid of taking that gamble.

You're not the first gay man to have a scary family, I'll match my gun totin', beer swillin' Texan Southern Baptist rednecks against anyone's homophobic relatives. DO you think it was easy telling them? Do you think it wasn't fucking scary and a huge gamble?

Yet you want to lecture me, and thousands of gay men from like backgrounds about "talking and typing words" when we've actually gone out into the real world and done what you're saying is so scary it justifies your hiding.

Please.

Your closet, your choice, your life, that doesn't entitle you to expect consideration or complicity from anyone.

 

[Lex Domino]

Whatever, clearly you're too self-absorbed to empathize with others. It's all about you and what you went through as evidenced in your own posts.

 

[Jo-thin]

My boyfriend and I has been dating for about 2 1/2 years and I'm still not out. His whole family knows and about 3/4 of my close friends know, he lives with me and my family doesn't know but I'm sure they have an idea.

The weird thing about me is I don't mind showing my love for him in public as long as it isn't around where I live and where people know me, I want to come out to everyone someday and I'm glad that my love that is completely out the closet is patiently supporting me and is helping me. I love him so much! <3

 

[Lex Domino]

My boyfriend and I has been dating for about 2 1/2 years and I'm still not out. His whole family knows and about 3/4 of my close friends know, he lives with me and my family doesn't know but I'm sure they have an idea.

The weird thing about me is I don't mind showing my love for him in public as long as it isn't around where I live and where people know me, I want to come out to everyone someday and I'm glad that my love that is completely out the closet is patiently supporting me and is helping me. I love him so much! <3

See this is what I'm talking about. Great people supporting each other and one day when it's right for you to come out it'll be even better.

Thanks for sharing that!

 

[FunFunk]

Come on, choices have consequences. Being in the closet is a choice, and it's a lie. NO ONE can force you to give up your family. NO ONE can force you to come out. If some guy pressures you to do either and you choose not to, you can. That?s a choice also.

But it?s still presumptuous to expect someone else to lie for you ? and that?s what it comes down to. Everyone ? including my homophobic Texas Baptist family knows I?m gay. Some of them don?t like it, some of them don?t care, but all of them know, and all of them ask questions about guys I bring around, just like they asked questions about the girls my straight brothers brought around. What am I supposed to do? Lie, tell them he?s a ?roommate,? then watch them roll on the ground laughing? Hide his existence? What kind of position has his lie put me in? I did not make his choice to hide in the closet, which is why I will not make the choice to commit to him.

If the guy is in the closet, he can?t ever be around any of my family or friends, ?cause they?ll immediately know ? and I?m not giving up my family either. So what real part of my life can he be? I?m not going to lie to my mother, my friends, my brothers. He won?t tell the truth, he will call me telling the truth pushing him, so there you are.

Guys in the closet can stay there and that?s fine, until they start thinking they have some right to have other people respect their dishonesty. They have no right to the closet, it?s just an unfortunate place they find themselves in (that most of us have found ourselves in.) It?s not privacy, it?s not discretion, it?s just fear.

You want to be in the closet, fine, knock yourself out. I don?t care, but I?m not going to date you either, and that?s not because I have decided for you, it?s not because I have an agenda, it's not because you won't "give up your family," it's not because I'm hoping to get you to come out, it?s because you?ve decided that for yourself.

We don?t stay in the closet because of other people. There are plenty of out gay men with families - horrid and otherwise they won't give up. We stay in the closet because of fear, and that fear is only partially about the ignorance you face, the majority is all about yourself. That?s never changed, and guys only come out when they reconcile that in themselves ? no matter who won?t date them, no matter how bigoted the relatives. No matter what justifications they bide their time with in the meantime.

No one can force that - but if they're willing, perhaps one of us can HELP with that, and that too can only happen if the closet case chooses for it to be so.

Sheer eloquence.

 

[FunFunk]

Who said anything about lying?

Unless the guy in question lives with his family how exactly would you have to face them in the first place?

Most people move away from home. I personally live on the opposite coast than my family does.

How can we say "It gets better." and then shove "YOU'RE LIVING A LIE!!" down someone's throat for not being ready to come out yet?

You're calling people liars and talking about dishonesty as if it's gay men who are some sort of bad guys. Why put the blame on people who aren't willing to lose people they know and love due to homophobia?

All this just reads as really needy. You have to know every single person in your partner's life or you'll reject them? Even if said people don't want to know you in the first place?

Gay people aren't allowed to know or accept any homophobic people even if they happen to be family?

We must reject our family and hope everything works out with the guy we gave up our blood for? Really?

It's a lot easier to talk and type up words than it is to actually disown your own family or willingly be disowned by them.

Turning gay men into bad guys for not wanting to risk it all is shameful and selfish. Things like this are why so many gay people have been committing suicide for decades and you don't even see it.

People are not political tools. If you reject a gay person who's in the closet due to homophobia then you're just as bad as homophobes. Forcing your beliefs and restrictions on others is wrong.

If just being with the person you love isn't enough then maybe you don't deserve to have them in the first place.

No, I'm sure those expressing the view that they prefer their partners to be out do not consider gay men, whether out of the closet or still inside, as "bad guys." It's the homophobic mentality that encourages some gay men to remain in the closet that we have an issue with.

Concerning the bolded statements above:

You seem to feel that it is unfair to you for your potential partner to require you to be out of the closet. Yet your statement implies that, for the sole reason of their being from your family, you would fully accept people who refuse to fully accept you due entirely to their own prejudices and unfounded fears. Seems to me that that would be even more unfair.

No, selfish is expecting a gay man who is out of the closet to temporarily hide who he really is just because your homophobic family members or friends happen to be present because you find it more convenient for yourself to stay in the closet than to have the conversation that needs to happen with such people.

Homophobes reject gays because of their unreasonable fears and negative assumptions about gays, among other things. Openly gay men may refuse to be in relationships with those that are in the closet because they want to protect themselves emotionally and spare themselves the indignity of one of their most important life relationships not being acknowledged just because the mix of people is not quite "right," among many other issues. I don't see how you could ever lump openly gay men with homophobes just because they don't want to risk their relationship being denied because some irrational .

 

[FunFunk]

Oh spare me, the closet is a lie, people who live in it are lying. There's no getting around that. We all know why, most of us have been there.

Omission or commission the intent to deceive - as in pretending you're straight, is a lie.

And who cares about his family, he's lying to them too, I however won't lie to mine, and so, he can never be in my life in any meaningful way - that's MY choice, just like it's HIS choice to hide. Unless he's willing to meet my family and friends as the guy he actually is - that would be my GAY boyfriend, I'm not going to date him.

Needy is thinking that your closet has any kind of validity in my life. I'm sorry when guys find themselves there, I sympathize, and I well remember what it was like, which is why you won't find me making justifications and excuses for it.

And get over the jump to extremes. I don't have to either marry him or shun him, there are plenty of other options that don't require him to come out, or require me to lie for him, dating is just not going to be one of them.

Bravo.

 

[FunFunk]

Really? that whole bit about gay men demanding you give up your family came out of your head not mine. I didn't even bring up the other guy's family.

Every gay man who came out faced that risk of being disowned and rejected - actually faced it, you haven't, and you want to wave the chance we took around like we're the ones who don't understand it, but sugar, you don't understand it, you haven't been through it, you're still afraid of taking that gamble.

You're not the first gay man to have a scary family, I'll match my gun totin', beer swillin' Texan Southern Baptist rednecks against anyone's homophobic relatives. DO you think it was easy telling them? Do you think it wasn't fucking scary and a huge gamble?

Yet you want to lecture me, and thousands of gay men from like backgrounds about "talking and typing words" when we've actually gone out into the real world and done what you're saying is so scary it justifies your hiding.

Please.

Your closet, your choice, your life, that doesn't entitle you to expect consideration or complicity from anyone.

Again, well said.

 

[FunFunk]

Whatever, clearly you're too self-absorbed to empathize with others. It's all about you and what you went through as evidenced in your own posts.

Actually, he does have some empathy, as do all gay men who are out. But it's empathy within a level that is reasonable and not to a point where their partners grant the homophobes who would disapprove of them and harm them greater accomodation than those that love them as they are. This is what gays who insist on remaining in the closet during their relationship are asking their own partners to do. They're essentially asking the openly gay partner to accomodate the preferences of people who, basically, would prefer that gay men didn't exist (except, maybe, in eternal shame). And that's completely untenable.